TeamSwift

Home of the Suzuki mini-compacts ! Your Home for all things Suzuki Swift, Geo Metro, Holden Barina, Chevy Sprint, Pontiac Firefly, and Suzuki Cultus. TeamSwift is a technical performance oriented community!
It is currently Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:20 pm

Underbody braces, turbos and more!

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:36 am
Posts: 881
Location: Vancouver BC
I'm trying to help a member diagnose/start their MK2 T3 swapped into a MK3 car. So far, fuel pump/injector/FPR components are ok, but Code 41 is flashed. We suspect wiring faults.

Below is a simplified schematic showing our understanding of the main Mk2 T3 ignition circuit. Hopefully it is correct. [edited to correct polarity symbols on ignition coil]

Image

My questions are:
(1) Does the igniter rely on a ground path through the noise suppressor circuit, or does the metal case of the igniter bolted to the firewall provide a ground path?
(2) Will a MK2 T3 car run without a noise suppressor?
(3) Can the igniter work properly without a tachometer connected? (ie. brown wire not connected to instrument cluster)
(4) The FSM suggests that a condenser is also attached. Is this part essential for the engine to run?
(5)Where the heck is the noise suppressor and condenser located on a T3? and what does it look like?
(6) What faults might cause a code 41? (no ignition signal).

Thank you for reading!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:28 pm
Posts: 1170
Location: So Cal, USA
I have MK1 T3 and here are a few things I have learned.

The igniter will eventually fail. It is not an easy diagnosis, unless of course
you have a spare one on hand to swap out. There is a diagnosis procedure in the FSM.
Heat, vibration and time are enemies.

If it's not the ignitor, it may be the distributor itself. Bad module or
broken mechanical advance causing the rotor to be in the wrong position.

I've also had wires (factory wire loom to distributor) themselves break for no reason inside the insulation, it took a
continuity test and jiggling wires to find the suspect the problem wire, and a razor blade
to open the insulation to confirm the strand break.

If your car has a transplant, it could be wiring issues.
Did verify with a spark checker?

I recently had same issue, but had spark. After swapping distributors with what I thought
was a good one, still no start. Ended up being original distributor was bad, and replacement
distributor was also bad. Rebuilt and verified rotor position relative to TDC and all was good.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:36 am
Posts: 881
Location: Vancouver BC
Thank you Jamalspelling for these ideas.

I am helping member CMA with his getting his Mk3 conversion running again. His car has a complete swapped-in engine/ECU/sensors and adapted harness from a MK2 T3 donor. So far the main suspects for the no start condition is, as you say - the igniter, dizzy, or wiring harness between the ECU and igniter.

Some testing on my running MK2 T3 has helped eliminate some possible components from testing. The noise suppressor and condenser are considered not even considered ignition parts by Suzuki, and are even classified as a radio-related part! What has been confusing is that other years and models of the G engine family have some ignition components moved from the igniter to the noise suppressor, or moved inside the ECU - it's hard to be sure what is going on inside without a true circuit schematic - most resources available are only wiring diagrams connecting black boxes.

Below are some diagrams/pictures of the T3 ignition system, put together using information from Sidekick, Samurai, Swift, Geo Metro forum sites, as well as pictures of the infamous Noise Suppressor part and the role it plays in the essential parts of an ignition system for a MK2 T3. (Conclusion: Noise Suppressor is not a critical part for a MK2 T3)

Image
Edit: Corrected orange and yellow wire color labels on July 11 2016 + included voltage values for engine running conditions.
Image


Last edited by suzukitom on Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:52 am
Posts: 1540
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Jamel, If bad distributor then it should shoot code 42?

Tomorrow we will solve the problem the spark issue then hopefully solve the noid flash once at same time.

I just pulled out the distributor therefore I can't get a good timing... I need to do guess game until it runs properly. >_>

_________________
sorry bout my bad english


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:36 am
Posts: 881
Location: Vancouver BC
Updates on efforts to start CMA'S T3.
Post was edited to correct errors in wire color labels

Updates on efforts to start CMA'S T3.
Installed my new battery in his car during testing to rule out low voltage.
Checked orange and yellow ignition trigger and fail feedback wires for continuity.
Checked coil brown/white and black/white coil to igniter wires for continuity and voltage for blk/white.
Checked distributor rotor and base timing at cylinder 1 TDC.
Did crank test check for voltage at igniter pins.

CMA's Igniter / Coil wire test results:
Black/White: 12V (+BAT Ignition on)
Brown/White: 12V (Coil - Ignition On)
Brown/White: 10V (Coil - Starter cranking)
Ground Connection: 0 ohms
Orange: 0.2 to 0.4V (Igniter Trigger signal from ECU while cranking)
Yellow: 5.2V (Igniter Feedback Fail signal to ECU while cranking)


We forgot to check if code 41 was still there after all this.
Engine still has no sign of wanting to start however. :(

I took CMA's currently installed ignition parts and spares home to my running T3 to install and test:
Results were the same regardless of my parts or CMA parts used:
Test involved 3 igniters, a T3 coil, spare G13A coil, 1991 T3 ECU, 1989 T3 ECU, all tested one at a time on my running T3 - resulted in normal engine start up in my car with a normal code 12 in Diagnostic mode.

Suzukitom's running T3 as reference:
Igniter / Coil wire test results:
Black/White: 12V (+BAT Ignition on)
Brown/White: 12V (Coil - Ignition On)
Brown/White: 10.5V (Coil - Starter cranking)
Ground Connection: 0 ohms
Orange: 0.1 to 0.7V (Igniter Trigger signal from ECU while cranking)
Yellow: 0.0V (Igniter Feedback Fail signal to ECU while cranking)
Orange: 0.7 V (Igniter Trigger signal from ECU while running)
Yellow: 1.0V (Igniter Feedback Fail signal to ECU while running)



CMA wants to replace the whole harness and start over but probably something simple was overlooked. Something in his Yellow ignition fail signal wire looks suspect. Any other ideas? May need to consider getting an oscilloscope for more tests if further wire by wire checking reveals nothing.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:28 pm
Posts: 1170
Location: So Cal, USA
I'm not seeing that you pulled the suspect car distributor
and tried it in your running car.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:52 am
Posts: 1540
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Well, it was not important... I tried 3 dizzys... two dizzys were 220 ohm and good one that I used was 160 ohm... make no difference.

I tried everything and it was not making sense... really strange culprit that I can't find.

Yesterday, I went to the junkyard to cut connectors and other for 5 dollars then I tried to build my own ignition system. Pretty simple... I connect the B++ (w/blk) to original coil connector because it's easier and safer.

Right now the engine ran so terrible... (I did fix the vacuum and fuel leaking) so I will need to do timing tomorrow...

Solution? Build your own ignition system... since I can't find culprit in the wire... really strange... I mean all part and wires were good... exactly same as I built.... But I will not give up until I am done with tuning and etc... then re-diagnosis in the future.


Thank you all for trying to help.

_________________
sorry bout my bad english


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group