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 Post subject: Increasing fuel economy
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:26 pm 
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Location: Roy Washington
I know that this is not the norn for this board, and I have searched with not much help.
I am looking to increase the gas milage of my 3 cyl Metro. I bought this car for the mileage, not performance. I have no expectations of great speed.
So, what can I do to up the MPG? I know the normal stuff like tire pressure, stock skinny tires, good oil, plugs, air filter etc... But is there anything else I can do?
I can not remove much off this car to save weight, it is stripped as is. It has no power steering, no A/C, no Radio, no hub caps, etc. The only things it has are things it needs to run.
Anyway, anything that you all can suggest would be great, Thanks
Scott

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:37 pm 
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Your spare tire, the rear seat if you do not need it :lol: A freer flowing exhaust would PROBABLY end up giving you a bit of an HP boost and fuel economy, as the engine has to deal with less backpressure. You could also talk to Suprf1y about one of his economy cams. Bump the timing up as well, but not enough to have to go to the next grade of fuel.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:48 pm 
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Well, I won't drive without a spare and I still need the rear seat, I have 3 kids that ride in it every once in a while.
The free flow exhaust might work, but I don't want to mess up the low end power(what little is there).
I am talking to Suprf1y about his cams and sprockets.

Whats the highest MPG anyone has got with a GAS G10 Metro/Swift? A friend has one that gets 52mpg, but it seems that it could acheive better.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:35 am 
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My best MPG to date was a one time 55 mpg. This was with 90% interstate driving with only the ignition timing bumped to 8 deg. BTDC.

I average about 42-44 mpg with this cold Wisconsin weather and letting the car warm up in the morning for 5 min before driving it to work. This is with a +10 advanced cam gear, 10 deg BTDC ignition timing, and a home made 2" mandrel bent exhaust with Thrush Turbo Muffler. These mods did not have any negative effects on my MPG. It did help in peformance a lot. Especially low end torque.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:52 am 
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your '98 metro is about the heaviest metro ever built and will always have the poorest fuel economy of the 3cyl g10 cars. you're hauling around an extra 300+ pounds (about 3 kids all the time). a smooth foot on the accelerator and some fore-thinking to keep you out of stop & go situations are your best bet. the timing mod & a fuel economy cam/head from mike are certainly a great idea/investment, but don't expect the 60+mpg that the earlier cars can get.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:06 am 
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98Metr0$ wrote:
Well, I won't drive without a spare...

I do. It's been 2 years now without a problem. To me, the weight savings is worth the gamble. :wink: The spare tire and the rear seats are two heaviest interior items you can remove. I'm not sure how much you've yanked out of your car, but I was able to drop 200 lbs in mine.

Here's some prior threads on fuel economy:
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=1650
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=1667
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=11349
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=12173
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=12944

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:10 am 
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Thanks for all the info guys. I am not looking for anything unrealistic, just the best I can get without any crazy mods.
Right at this point anything is better than my 90 Counrty Squire Wagon (20mpg)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:41 pm 
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For those pulling the rear seat, don't forget to pull out the rear belts and associated hardware. The belts etc are heavier than the rear seat is.

There's some consensus with MPGers that a little acetone in the tank (3-4oz/10gal) gets about a 5% boost in MPG. I tried it for one tank and did see a mpg jump, but then I had to park the car for a few weeks while I did some overdue maintence. So I'm not yet convinced.

Warmer air and warmer fuel should give better mpgs (but less hp). As it get the fuel to burn more completely. I've pulled off the snorkel thing that feeds my engine cold air. It now takes air from deep in the engine compartment.

Check you engine temp. Make sure it warms up to 198deg. 198 is the stock T'stat, but when you need a replacement AutoZone etc sell you a 180 and say it's the right one. This causes better power, but less MPGs.

Be smooth. Biggest part of milage is driving habits. If its a manual, leave it in gear and coast as far as you can. The fuel injector shuts off under these conditions. Also, I tend to find a nice big rig to tail gate. Not the safest thing to do, but you can really feel the difference in the effort the little 3cyl is putting out when you draft.

Jay W
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:19 am 
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I agree about coasting in gear. I installed a home made A/F ratio gauge with led's hooked to my O2 sensor. When I am driving and let off the gas all the lights turn off because the fuel injector is shut off until the RPM's come down.

You could also install a vacuum gauge inside the car. When you drive always try to maintain maximum vacuum. This will give you the best economy.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:15 am 
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I do have a Turbo boost/vacuum gauge that I have left over from a Shelby Turbo I had. I could install that and just use the vacuum side, and confuse anyone that sees the gauge.

I had not heard of running Acetone in the gas tank, but I had heard of running Isopropal Alcohol. It effectivly raises the Octane rating(also works to remove any water). I assume the Acetone does the same?

I can not remove the rear seat, I need it for the kids, the spare tire also needs to stay. But, I did look around at the car for "unnessesary items". I have extra floor mats, vent shades on the side and a large mat in the rear. I also carry a few books and other thing back and forth to work. I am sure I could cut a few of these things to shave weight.

Scott

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:11 am 
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be carful with the acetone and isopropal! if you add it to your tank, i wouldnt do too much at a time. to much can destroy your fuel system. i have read TSB's about FI cleaners eating at the injector windings and seals in the fuel system,including the fuel pump and pressure reg. :evil: if the cleaners ment to help a fuel system are bad in high quantitys then i am sure acetone will be as well!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:24 pm 
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Isopropyl should never be used in the fuel system. There is a Suzuki TSB, which basically says that alcohol blended fuel should be used only as a last resort if no better fuel is available. The only time I would ever consider adding alcohol to fuel is if I knew there was water in the gas tank, and even then I would only add small quantities at a time.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:26 pm 
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Lihtan wrote:
The only time I would ever consider adding alcohol to fuel is if I knew there was water in the gas tank, and even then I would only add small quantities at a time.


Why?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:07 pm 
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I went to Tech School for Auto/Diesel a few years back(about 15), and I was told by the instructors there that the main ingredient in the octane boosters and the fuel system cleaners was Alcohol. I was also told that one small bottle (10oz?) per 10 gallons of gas was the right mix.
Honestly Acetone scares me, it is very harsh and could strip deposits, ruin rubber seals and gum up stuff.
Isopropal Alcohol is very mild, you use it on your skin. It is also an emulsifier, it will allow water to mix with the gas so it can be burned.
However, one thing to keep in mind. If one bottle costs a dollar, or even $.80 you can buy 8 gal of higher octane for the same difference in price. Next step up from regular is often only $.10, so no real savings.

Scott

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:15 pm 
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suprf1y wrote:
Why?

Because alcohol allows water to be dissolved into gasoline.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:22 pm 
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Lihtan wrote:
suprf1y wrote:
Why?

Because alcohol allows water to be dissolved into gasoline.


Throw me a bone here.
Tell me why alky would be a problem. Water will hardly be dissolved into the gas, but if you do have water, you would be smart to use some alcohol in order to help you get rid of the water, and still stay running. I've never had a problem mixing alcohol with my gas, and I would much rather run my cars on alchohol than gas, anyway.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:46 pm 
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suprf1y wrote:
Throw me a bone here.
Tell me why alky would be a problem. Water will hardly be dissolved into the gas, but if you do have water, you would be smart to use some alcohol in order to help you get rid of the water, and still stay running. I've never had a problem mixing alcohol with my gas, and I would much rather run my cars on alchohol than gas, anyway.

Yes, adding alcohol to your fuel will help you consume the water that is present in the fuel. All I'm saying is that it would be smart to be conservative with alcohol usage to prevent potential fuel system damage.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:50 pm 
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Quote:
All I'm saying is that it would be smart to be conservative with alcohol usage to prevent potential fuel system damage.


Sounds like you are confusing methanol, and ethanol.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:28 pm 
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MOD FIGHT!!!! MOD FIGHT!!! :D

crap, i'm banned :oops:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:30 pm 
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Your not even on probation yet :lol:


Mods, lets GET IT ON! (guy from MXC).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:37 pm 
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Just to dig up some organic chemistry that I learned when I was dumb and went to university... ethanol is pretty much harmless (unless you drink too much of it, but that's another topic). It reacts with water (it's very very slightly acidic and loves to associate with water due to the hydrogen-bonding of the -OH group to HOH) and very few other hydrocarbons, and doesn't do much else... especially to rubber and other long-chain polymerized synthetic compounds used in fuel delivery systems. So I'm pretty sure that it'll be safe with any fuel system components that don't get eaten by the other HC components of gas.


Chris

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:00 am 
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CJDavE wrote:
Just to dig up some organic chemistry that I learned when I was dumb and went to university... ethanol is pretty much harmless (unless you drink too much of it, but that's another topic). It reacts with water (it's very very slightly acidic and loves to associate with water due to the hydrogen-bonding of the -OH group to HOH) and very few other hydrocarbons, and doesn't do much else... especially to rubber and other long-chain polymerized synthetic compounds used in fuel delivery systems. So I'm pretty sure that it'll be safe with any fuel system components that don't get eaten by the other HC components of gas.


Chris


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:14 am 
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Heh... not intentionally. Just trying to be helpful. :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:14 am 
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This is Suzuki's advice regarding alcohol/methanol/ethanol use:
Suzuki wrote:
TSB No. TS 4-01 02159
Section Title: Engine

Division: Automotive
Category: Technical

SUBJECT: USE OF GASOLINE/ALCOHOL-BLENDED FUELS ETHANOL-METHANOL-MTBE

MODEL: All
YEAR: All

Suzuki has revised its recommendation concerning galonine/alcohol blended fuels. Please review the following information which summarizes the changes made. Future owner's manuals will reflect the revised recommendations.

• Suzuki continues to recommend that customers use straight alcohol-free, unleaded gasoline whenever possible.

• In some areas, customers may only have the option of buying unleaded gasoline blended with either alcohol or MTBE (Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether). The gasoline/MTBE blend, which is alcohol free, is recommended over unleaded gasoline containing alcohol.

• If straight alcohol-free unleaded gasoline is not available, or customers prefer to use gasoline/alcohol blend, then up to 10% ethanol is acceptable.

• The use of gasoline/methanol blended fuels are allowable up to 5% concentration and only if the appropriate cosolvents an corrosion inhibitors are present in the fuel.

More Desirable

|| Straight unleaded gasoline
|| Unleaded gasoline/MTBE blend
|| Unleaded gasoline/ethanol blend 10% or less
\/ Unleaded gasoline/methanol blend 5% or less with additives

Less Desirable

Gasoline/alcohol blends containing ethanol are recommended over gasoline/alcohol blends containing methanol. Leaded premium or leaded regular gasoline should never be used.


Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me they're telling you NOT to use alcohol.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:47 am 
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Quote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me they're telling you NOT to use alcohol.


I wonder if you asked them how they feel about installing headers, turbos, 2" exh. systems, bored tb's, perf. cams, adjusatble timing sprockets, 15" wheels, MSD ignition, cold air intakes, how they would feel about it?
I'm pretty sure they would not recomend any of them. Have you done any of those to your car?? It is just corporate bullshit, and all the manufacturers have said the same thing for 20yrs, or more.
For the methanol, thats obvious. I have used it, and we know what it can do.
For the ethanol, its probably a fuel mapping concern. You know how much ethanol you need, compared to gas.
Did you read the SB on the crankshaft grinding? What a load of bullshit. You need to be able to interpret these things, and understand what they really mean.
Alcohol is good, way better than gas, if properly used. You haven't said why it isn't, only that Suzuki says its bad, so it must be bad.
Not trying to pick a fight :D , so please don't take it that way, just trying to help.

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