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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:26 pm 
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Location: san diego
I have a 1.0 litre geo. I want to do a complete rebuild for efficiency as a project to see how much I can squeeze out of the engine.

Whats the MPG % increase for built engines generally? I have the XFI 91 model and got well over 50mpg before on long trips. Im hoping to increase that by 20mpg with lightweight high compression pistons, matched head ports exc exc exc.

When all is done I was thinking of getting with toyota to retrofit a battery inside ? Farfetched I know but Im thinking of the power MPG more I can get out of it. Shooting for 90mpg :)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:37 pm 
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Location: Irvine, Ca
Unless something is wrong with the motor now, I doubt you'll get 20mpg out of a rebuild, even with the higher compression.

When I accidently had the timing way advanced it got about 8mpg better. But started to ping up strong grades. My upcomming trick is to rig a bike shifter cable to the rotor cap and manually advance the timing from inside the car for flat land, light load driving. Then back it off if I find a hill.

The idea behind hybrids is to allow a smaller engine to be used. A DIY hybrid won't work as well as you think unless you swap out the stock motor for something smaller. If you can rig the metro to work off only two cylinders or one strongly built one, it would yield good mpgs.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:21 am 
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Most Metros can get better mileage than todays hybrids. The EPA mileage listed on the dealer sticker is an archaic laboratory test that goes back decades, also fails to accomodate newer engines. Very few hybrid owners ever achieve the advertised mileage. The Prius, although admittedly a nice car, is heavy (2900 lbs). Clever use of technology was used to improve it's milage, but doesn't stand a chance againsted a dedicated, lightweight (1700 lbs), gas miser like a Metro.

I would recommend looking into a propane conversion. Your fuel efficiency won't really change, but you will pay a LOT less for your fuel.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:06 am 
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woodrufj wrote:
When I accidently had the timing way advanced it got about 8mpg better. But started to ping up strong grades. My upcomming trick is to rig a bike shifter cable to the rotor cap and manually advance the timing from inside the car for flat land, light load driving. Then back it off if I find a hill.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

What about water injection to reduce pinging?

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1994 Metro - MPH project (getting a DOHC G13B)
1994 Metro - MPG project (getting an XFi G10)
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1990 Swift - Parts car
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:09 am 
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In his case, I highly doubt it was actually the normal pinging we are use to. Even at part throttle there could have been very mild detonation that he couldn't here/see.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:49 am 
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Location: Columbia,MO
Please expound on this propane conversion. How much less are we
talking and how much would it use compared to gasoline?
Josh

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:59 am 
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Propane conversions are something I have just recently been researching, and is something that could definately use some more public exposure.

Here's a posting I made on SlashDot a few days ago (topic concerning hybrids):

Lihtan (slashdot.org) wrote:
Propane Conversion

While hybrids are a step in the right direction, there is something that every owner of a gasoline powered vehicle can do to reduce their fuel costs, and reduce the emissions their car produces.

Convert your vehicle to propane. Propane is currently half the cost of gasoline, and when combusted, produces dramatically few emissions than gasoline or diesel. People may argue that propane has slightly less energy than gasoline, while this is true, the higher octane rating of propane (110) allows you to compensate for this by advancing your engine's timing, increasing it's compression ratio, or upping the boost (if turbocharged). Because propane is clean burning, your oil stays cleaner longer, and your engine will have a longer lifespan as well. Most conversion are dual-fuel, which switch back to gasoline, should the propane run out. Propane conversion is becoming popular in Europe, and there are a number of modern propane systems on the market that work with today's fuel injected engines.

Propane is a byproduct of the refining of methane and natural gas. In many parts of the petroleum industry, propane is regarded as a nuisance to be flared rather than harvested. Currently more propane is generated that there is demand for it, causing it's price to be proportionally lower than other fuels. As much of the methane and natural gas refining is done in North America, consumption of propane over gasoline keeps more money out of the hands of foreign oil producers that are known for sponsoring terrorism.

Although propane is still a fossil fuel, and won't end our dependancy on oil, propane is widely available commercially (unlike pie-in-the-sky fuelcell or hydrogen schemes), and nearly all gasoline engines can be converted to run on it right now. Most people recover the cost of conversion with the first few monts of use. Also most propane vehicles fetch a higher price when sold on the used market.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:25 pm 
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i did a propane conversion on a saab using a v4 engine about 15 years ago. it was an odd duck back then, but i got a bunch of propane conversion kits from a place that used the industrial ford v4 on floor cleaning machines.

there are some engineering hurdles to overcome with the conversion but it'll work. you have to heat the throttle body or carburetor to make it work. you'll lose performance on the deal, throttle response goes to hell and acceleration goes out the window. it also killed my exhaust due to water condensation in the muffler causing the system to rust. another drawback is availability of fueling stations. i was lucky enough to live in a small town that had a gas station with a propane refilling system for gas grills that made it convenient once i convinced the attendants that i was proficient at operating their system.

the thing to remember is that as a fuel, propane doesn't hold an equal amount of energy when compared to gasoline. although it is a much "cleaner" fuel, it isn't as good for engine performance. i ran my "jelly bean" saab v4 for 18 months before i got tired of the novelty and propane prices went up. once propane and gasoline prices equalized, i went back to the 40 mpg i was getting using gasoline.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:43 am 
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Lihtan wrote:
...People may argue that propane has slightly less energy than gasoline, while this is true, the higher octane rating of propane (110) allows you to compensate for this by advancing your engine's timing, increasing it's compression ratio, or upping the boost (if turbocharged)...

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