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 Post subject: Tires for economy?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:17 am 
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I was looking at the tires at Walmart. More specifically, the 4.80x12 trailer tires. :lol:
Really skinny, hard and a max pressure of 60 PSI. I wonder what they would do for mileage. Of course the car would handle like a boat trailer. :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:11 am 
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I'll bet it would handle like a boat trailer. I wonder how the ratings are, compared to car tires?
I'd go with a 165 or 155 80 13 cheapy Walmart tire. They are super skiinny, which should help a bit.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:55 am 
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[quote="suprf1y"] I'll bet it would handle like a boat trailer. I wonder how the ratings are, compared to car tires?. [/quote]

afaik; the 480x12 4 ply is 780lbs. 6 ply version is 990lbs. (od=20.5")
The 5.30-12TL 4ply is 840lbs (od=21.4" vs 145/80/12 is 21.26")

The front end weight on my '89 Metro rarely exceeds 600lbs/front tire, depending on load.

One of these months I'd like to try a pair on the front and do an extended mpg test. jfk

Thanks for the observations.
Pres

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:14 am 
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What's the speed rating of these tires?

Here's idea: why not get a set of four mini spare tires mounted on rims? I bet most of the ones from a wrecking yard have never been used. You'd probably want to quickly spray bomb them black so you're not seen driving around all the time with bright safety yellow steelies :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:19 pm 
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Lihtan wrote:
What's the speed rating of these tires?

Here's idea: why not get a set of four mini spare tires mounted on rims? I bet most of the ones from a wrecking yard have never been used. You'd probably want to quickly spray bomb them black so you're not seen driving around all the time with bright safety yellow steelies :wink:


Good question -Don't know anything about their speed rating.
(its got to be 55-65mph minimum?)

About 10yrs ago I went thru about 1/2 dozen of the spare tires.
(BF Goodrich "Metric Mini Spare" T105/80D13)
I put a matching pair only on front wheels for testing.

Plus side:
Gave nice, light steering (60psi). Really easy when parking.
Picked up 2-3mpg.
Seemed like brisker acceleration (no timing was done).

Minus side:
Solid steel wheels give minimal front brake rotor ventilation.
Tires only lasted about 4-5k miles ( I drive easy).
Ride was a bit rougher (probably as rough as the really mod /40 profiles )
Local junk yard ran outta dirt cheap matched sets.
(they had bigger/heavier ones - but I was not interested)

Pres

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:09 pm 
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I have the cheapy walmart tires on my metro. Not bad tires for the price. Have yet to see snow in them though. But for $118 for the whole set of 4 I wasn't complaining. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Tires for economy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:28 am 
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Gasoline Fumes wrote:
I was looking at the tires at Walmart. More specifically, the 4.80x12 trailer tires. :lol:
Really skinny, hard and a max pressure of 60 PSI. I wonder what they would do for mileage. Of course the car would handle like a boat trailer. :lol:


Be very, VERY careful using trailer tires. If there isn't a "R" somewhere in the size, it's a bias ply tire. Meaning it dosen't have radial construction or radial plys in the body of the tire. If you have ever driven a car with bias ply tires you might think twice about using them. Also note that a bias tire changes shape on the contact patch 4 times, a radial tire only 2. Whats that mean?

1. heavier tire
2. less tire life
3. soft soggy feel (even with 60psi, it can wander in the lane)
4. some trailer tires say "for trailer service only". This might get you snagged at an inspection
5. expense (some trailer tires are more money than a standard tire)

Take what I've said with a grain of salt... I've never driven a Metro with bias-ply tires. The light weight of the car might be a perfect match for them. I'd just exercise caution when using tires for a purpose other than what they were designed for.


CityCon

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 Post subject: Re: Tires for economy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:46 am 
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CityConnection wrote:
Gasoline Fumes wrote:
I was looking at the tires at Walmart. More specifically, the 4.80x12 trailer tires. :lol:
Really skinny, hard and a max pressure of 60 PSI. I wonder what they would do for mileage. Of course the car would handle like a boat trailer. :lol:


Be very, VERY careful using trailer tires. If there isn't a "R" somewhere in the size, it's a bias ply tire. Meaning it dosen't have radial construction or radial plys in the body of the tire. If you have ever driven a car with bias ply tires you might think twice about using them. Also note that a bias tire changes shape on the contact patch 4 times, a radial tire only 2. Whats that mean?

1. heavier tire
2. less tire life
3. soft soggy feel (even with 60psi, it can wander in the lane)
4. some trailer tires say "for trailer service only". This might get you snagged at an inspection
5. expense (some trailer tires are more money than a standard tire)

Take what I've said with a grain of salt... I've never driven a Metro with bias-ply tires. The light weight of the car might be a perfect match for them. I'd just exercise caution when using tires for a purpose other than what they were designed for.


CityCon

It's not likely that I'll do it, I'll probably end up using 175/50-13 car tires. I just thought it was an interesting idea. And it would look really funny, which would amuse me. :D

Replies to your concerns:
1. they felt pretty light, but I've never picked up a bare 12" car tire
2. probably
3. I'm sure it would be miserable to drive!
4. I wouldn't even attempt to go through inspection with them on a car :lol:
5. $25 each

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1994 Metro - MPH project (getting a DOHC G13B)
1994 Metro - MPG project (getting an XFi G10)
1992 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1991 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1990 Swift - Parts car
1997 Metro - Parts car (gone)
1993 Metro - Parts car
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:47 am 
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I picked up a set of 4 155R12's @ Discount tire last week for $19 each. I went great! then the total came to $127. they added 1/2 the price to mount and balance them!!!! :shock: Not sure the brand on them but they are new, round and hold air. Oh yeah, unlike the tires that were one there, the Grooves go around the outside, not the side walls =)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:21 am 
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I just purchased new Sears Guardsman's for my Metro.

155-80-13's. Set of four cost me $127 mounted and balanced.

They are taller than the 145-80-12's that were on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Tires for economy?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:23 am 
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CityConnection wrote:
Be very, VERY careful using trailer tires. If there isn't a "R" somewhere in the size, it's a bias ply tire. Meaning it dosen't have radial construction or radial plys in the body of the tire. If you have ever driven a car with bias ply tires you might think twice about using them. Also note that a bias tire changes shape on the contact patch 4 times, a radial tire only 2. Whats that mean?

1. heavier tire
2. less tire life
3. soft soggy feel (even with 60psi, it can wander in the lane)
4. some trailer tires say "for trailer service only". This might get you snagged at an inspection
5. expense (some trailer tires are more money than a standard tire)

Take what I've said with a grain of salt... I've never driven a Metro with bias-ply tires. The light weight of the car might be a perfect match for them. I'd just exercise caution when using tires for a purpose other than what they were designed for. CityCon


Interesting that you make it seem like bias tires are inferior.
Before 'radials' were 'invented', by Michelin, millions of vehicles drove billions of miles for many decades on alot worse roads than we have nowadays.

The following is a few selected notes from various sources:

http://www.rsracing.com/tech-tire.htm
Bias ply tires give more warning (than radials) about traction limits and have excellent feedback of what the contact patch is doing.

Radials give less warning before 'breaking away'. This causes radials to be harder to drive at the limit.

Radials are usually heavier than bias tires due to the overwrap plys.
(just the opposite of what you stated!)

Most racing radial tires are closer to a belted bias ply tire than a passenger car radial tire. This gives the racing radial tire traits from both bias & radial tires (good feedback & higher breakaway traction). Which tire is best for you, it depends on your needs. The bias tire is good for applications where negative camber is limited, but only if a wide enough rim is available. Radials are good where transient handling is primary concern, and adequate negative camber is available.
...
Aircraft tires are mostly bias construction (about 80 percent) and are frequently retreaded six times or more.
"We have a saying that aircraft tires have to carry off-road loads at racetrack speeds. If you compare an aircraft tire to one of the tires on your car, the aircraft tire might be loaded at 15 times the weight and traveling at least twice as fast."
(it goes 0-100+mph in less than a second with tons of weight on it)

Its just acceptable to have a radial bias... :roll:

Pres

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:32 am 
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*dramatic sigh*

Well, I never worked in the tire industry... hold on a sec... I actually did!

A "TRAILER" tire is designed to handle weight of a trailer, not a road going vehicle. The post I made refered to trailer bias ply tires. I wasn't going to give a tech lesson for everyone on the differences between bias and radial construction.

Yes people enjoyed life driving on bias tires in the golden age. Problem is that most drivers now don't understand the difference in driving characteristics between the two. They feel vastly different from each other. And yes, I've used both on a racetrack under controled conditions (at the BFGoodrich release of the new G-Force tires).

I don't care what a website says (if it's on the internet, it's true!) I've been to several manufactureing plants; BFG, Ohtsu, Uniroyal; and I know the differences in how these tires are built and what weighs more.

Aircraft tires? Who brought that up? Sure, they can handle landing and takeoff but what about a 1700 LBS car trying to navigate the 405 to 101 interchange? They might do the job, but as good as a tire designed for it.

My point is that tires are designed for different jobs. Yes, bias ply tires are just fine for what they are designed to do.

Quote:
I'd just exercise caution when using tires for a purpose other than what they were designed for


So roll your eyes all you want. Like I said... use tires for what they are designed for.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:04 am 
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CityConnection wrote:
... Like I said... use tires for what they are designed for.

Agreed, that is certainly best.

However, getting tires designed for max economy in this gas-guzzling country is problematic.

Hopefully, $3-$4/gal will help bring them back into the US market.

I don't think it was by accident that Suzuki determined 145/80/12 gave the best economy amongst common(?) tire sizes.
I know it does for my Metro after thousands of miles of testing other sizes.

Thank you for your input/insight.
Pres

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:40 am 
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Now if we could get our hands on some genuine LRR (low rolling resistance) tires, we might be set! As of right now the smallest LRR tire is a 185/70R14 Bridgestone B381. It has a RRC (rolling resistance coefficent) of 0.0062 but it will run over $60 each! A somewhat more viable option might be the Sumitomo HTR200 that has a RRC of 0.0092 and cost around $30 each.

I only wish I could get RRC numbers for tires in the 12 and 13 inch sizes. I mean to be honest... a tire with a contact patch of 155MM should have a low number to begin with.

And I agree with you. The U.S. market needs an infusion of "green" tires to help combat the losses that are incured with standard (read: ancient) tires designs.

CityCon

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:39 pm 
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got 4 michelin 80,000 mile tires at Costco for 150 bux after a $60 instant rebate, 175/70R13.

im sure i would get better gas mileage with 155/80R13 but i couldnt pass up the price. didnt really notice a drop in mileage anyway.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:59 pm 
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Trailer tires aren't designed to turn. Even our light load metros give more side load than a trailer tire was ever meant to have.

When looking at load ratings, should be about half the cars total weight (not half the weight of the front end!). Under hard braking almost all the weight is on the front tires. You can fudge a little on the weight rating, but don't go with 500lb rated tires because theres only 1000lbs on the nose.

Width and weight of tire are most important to mpgs. Structure can be important, but there's not that many options for 12-14" tires, so true "High milage tires" are hard to find. Watch out switching to 12" rims on cars that didn't come with them, make sure your rotors will clear.

Jay W
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:16 pm 
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Pres wrote:
About 10yrs ago I went thru about 1/2 dozen of the spare tires.
(BF Goodrich "Metric Mini Spare" T105/80D13)
I put a matching pair only on front wheels for testing.

Plus side:
Gave nice, light steering (60psi). Really easy when parking.
Picked up 2-3mpg.
Seemed like brisker acceleration (no timing was done).



You would get better acceleration as you've changed your gear ratio substantially. As to the 2-3 mpg increase, you weren't traveling anywhere near the distance indicated on your odometer. Unless it was all stop and go driving, your actual mpg was 2-3 mpg LESS than you had before, but the odometer was spinning away like a madman, throwing off the calculations.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:56 am 
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Do a search for "low rolling resistance tires".

These are used on most of the hybrids and offer some mileage improvement. The EPA at http://www.fueleconomy.gov states that low rolling resistance tires can increase mileage by up to 4.2%

Cheers,
Jonathan


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