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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:41 pm
Posts: 263
Location: PA
Help me build a MPG Warrior! OK-i'm new to the forum, but have a plan to build a 2nd Metro, but strictly to see how many MPG's i get. I would like everyone to list what i should do. i.e.-head, cam, timing, pulleys, compression rings, Eagle Research items, etc.

Basically, what all can i put on this car to work together and get 80+ mpg?!

Who has what mods together and what kind of mileage?

Thanks! Wish me luck!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:12 pm 
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Location: PA
BTW-i have a 91 Metro with a 3cyl 5 speed. I don't know what trans is in it-can it be improved with a different trans that has a better MPG gearing? RPO code? Oh, and don't forget any computer upgrades that may help-like i'm hearing XFI computers may be better(?). Anyone have XFI engine blueprints?


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 Post subject: mpg warrior
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:28 pm 
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Location: mt
I've been looking for an XFi for that very purpose.

I'm well versed and experienced with mileage, ER, including their new hyzor, the old hyzo etc etc.

You can find me at:

http://fueleconomytips.com/content/view/31/2/

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:57 pm
Posts: 285
Location: ontario
Nice writeup of tips spt, KP for you :cheers:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:41 pm 
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Location: PA
XFi have 3.79. i found 2 this weekend, but wil not be able to get one for close to another month. I wont get by my guy til then. He has 2 and will sell me one for $90. Can probably get both trannies for $90/ea. I can get the computers-think he has 2-for $30/ea. I think i found 2 XFi engines too. One is missing the cam already and i'm gona grab the head or atleast the cam from the other.
I want to look into the water/washer injection.
Thanks for some input gang!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:51 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:41 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Irvine, Ca
I'm having pretty good like with Acetone treatment. 3oz/10gal is getting me from 43-44 to 47-48.

I've added a fuel heating system. Initial results look very good, but I need many more miles to say anything conclusive. So far the results are as follows:
Pre Acetone: 668.8mi/14.558gal =45.9mpg
Acetone only: 3258.8/69.625gal = 46.8
No Acetone: 1782.4/40.914gal = 43.6mpg
Acetone only, topped off due to heater install: 133.8mi/2.869gal
Heater (no Acetone), too hot (ran funny): 293.4mi/5.914gal = 49.6
Topped off due to bypass install (inaccurate fill I'm sure): 63.6mi/1.525gal
Heater+Acetone, with bypass valve full open, ~%50 bypassed (ran perfect): 383mi/7.029gal = 54.3mpg

Current tank is with Acetone and the bypass valve half closed. I'm getting some of the over heated fuel problems as with no bypass, but we'll see what happens. I didn't look real hard at the valve before installing, it could be that it near closes when half turned. I'll check out another one at the harware store.

The fuel heater is pretty slick. I bought a cute little liquid to liquid heat exchanger off e-bay for about $25, probably designed to cool oil in some sort of manufacturing application. I run the coolent lines through one side and the fuel input side through the other. As soon as the motor is warmed up it transfers a lot of energy to the gas. Which inturn goes back into the motor instead of blown into the atmosphere. I'll get a picture of the set up soon. The camera, me and the sun haven't been able to schedule a meeting.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:39 pm 
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Location: PA
Ya-would love to see the heater. I just did my first full week and full fill-up. I did 355 miles on 7.6 gallons=47.6 mpg. Woohoo!!
Like i read on here before-it;'s now becomming a sickness!!
I have the receipt for proof, but i think those numbers are believable by themselves.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:08 pm
Posts: 623
Location: Surprise, Az, USA
How about a geo that doesn't require gas at all......

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/geo.html


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:36 pm 
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Location: Surprise, Az, USA
Another one....

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/451.html


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:47 pm 
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Location: Irvine, Ca
disrespected3cyl wrote:
Ya-would love to see the heater.
Here's the pictures, pretty self explanitory. I might have the water flow direction wrong, but it doesn't matter. I first had no bypass circuit and the gas would over heat after about 10miles. Ideal would be to replace the ball valve in the bypass with a solenoid controlled by a temp sensor.

Click on them to get a fuller view.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:50 pm 
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Posts: 89
Location: Irvine, Ca
woodrufj wrote:
Click on them to get a fuller view.
And expand the window.

<How come I can't find an edit button?>

Jay W
505/287 Dakota


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:23 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:32 am
Posts: 254
Location: Kitchener, ON
Some things to try:

- adding weight to the flywheel

- checking out the tires used on the Honda Insight (Bridgestone Potenza RE92), or any other low resistance tire

- improve your aerodynamics by adding an undertray, etc. (see link)
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section ... toryid=870

- increasing your compression ratio, using higher octane fuel, optimizing your EFI with knock sensing, getting the combustion chamber & head worked to maximize combustion, etc.

'some' info here: http://hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/0510ht_fueleconomy/


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:20 pm 
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Location: Surprise, Az, USA
A heavy flywheel won't incraese gas mileage. It only improves driveability when removing your foot off the gas. In other word it keeps up the momentum of the motor when you take your foot off the gas, but it doesn't improve performance or mileage.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:57 pm 
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Location: Kitchener, ON
The flywheel serves to absorb torsional vibration, pulses, surges, etc. This energy is stored as kinetic energy in the flywheel. Since the engine delivers its torque in pulses, it makes sense to have a storage interface between the engine & the wheels. It would be pretty easy to try.

You may not gain much extra from a heavy flywheel, but you do loose efficiency with a lightweight rotating assembly.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:45 am 
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Location: Surprise, Az, USA
It would be easier to load weights in the back of your car and see if it improves gas mileage. :D Not going to happen.

Energy is not conserved. Momentum is.

Inertia (Mass) is the ability to resist movement. If you add mass, you resist movement.

Here's something you can do at home......

Roll a tire down your driveway and see how long it takes. Then strap a weight to your tire and see how long it takes. Because there's more work to be done by gravity, the heavier tire will take longer to roll down the hill.

Your engine is the same. A heavier flywheel is harder for the engine to turn and will cause more work to be done.

Always remove weight when you can.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:57 pm 
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Location: PA
woodruf-can you send me an e-mail with info on where to procur such a heater?
I saw something like this for off-roading and camping years back. You simply ran a garden hose thru a system tapped into the coolant like that and get a bucket of water or stream for the source and *voila* hot shower in the woods!!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:38 pm 
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Location: Surprise, Az, USA
:D


Sometimes you just have to smile!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:31 pm 
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Location: Kitchener, ON
Feel free to make a point, but a heavier flywheel doesn't make an engine 'work harder', it is an energy storage device.

Rolling a tire is not a comparison, absorbing energy pulses is. Think of it as a torque battery. : )

mmmm... I like that... torquey...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:35 am 
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martinq wrote:
Feel free to make a point, but a heavier flywheel doesn't make an engine 'work harder', it is an energy storage device...

A heavy flywheel requires more energy to move than light one. In performance situations, if you have two otherwise identical cars, the one with the lighter flywheel will always win. Rotating mass has even more influence over performance than curb weight does. It's already well established that heavy cars have poor fuel economy.

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maybe a picture Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:46 am 
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I'm taking college physics now. I'm studying to be an engineer. If you want me to talk physics, I can, but this post is about saving fuel.

A heavier flywheel does not save fuel.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:47 am 
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Lihtan wrote:
martinq wrote:
Feel free to make a point, but a heavier flywheel doesn't make an engine 'work harder', it is an energy storage device...

A heavy flywheel requires more energy to move than light one. In performance situations, if you have two otherwise identical cars, the one with the lighter flywheel will always win. Rotating mass has even more influence over performance than curb weight does. It's already well established that heavy cars have poor fuel economy.


Thank you.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:05 pm 
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Location: Irvine, Ca
disrespected3cyl wrote:
woodruf-can you send me an e-mail with info on where to procur such a heater?
Ebay. All kinds of liquid to liquid heat exchangers. Just make sure it has enough flow. Most of them are used as oil coolers.

I bought this one for $25. I wish I could identify it because it works really well for this purpose and all kinds of people want to buy one just like it.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:41 pm 
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Location: PA
What would be adequate flow?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:15 am 
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Location: Kitchener, ON
"Energy is not conserved. Momentum is."

That could make a great sig, but seriously. Energy is conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed.

===

"A heavy flywheel requires more energy to move than light one."

No, a heavy flywheel takes more energy to move 'as far' or 'as fast' as a light one. But you can put in the same amount of power in each, and extract the same power from each.

===

"Rotating mass has even more influence over performance than curb weight does."

Exactly my point, or at least part of it. An engine does not provide constant torque, but maintaining velocity does. A fairly efficient way of buffering this energy is through the flywheel, and one with more mass one will loose less of the torque than one with less mass will.

===

"It's already well established that heavy cars have poor fuel economy."

Well, we're not really talking about making the car heavier. It would be quite easy to remove the small amount of weight from the car that you could add to the flywheel Say, 10 or 20 lbs.

Also, we're not talking about acceleration performance here, we're talking about fuel economy performance.

Keep it coming.


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