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 Post subject: Run your car on water!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:03 pm 
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http://mydetrentgive.info/

If pseudo-science powers these people, why shouldn't it power your car.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:07 pm 
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ive heard about this alot, seperating the hydrogen and the oxygen and it just getting added to the car (which it WILL) but a friend in highschool tried to test this theory and noticed no difference in power or economy, even built a proper test setup and everything for his 4cyl mustang. its just that theres not enough hydrogen and oxygen in that amount of water. could you use this on a much larger scale maybe youd see something, but then the weight of the water = negative effects. therefore its useless

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:18 pm 
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wow this site is hilarious, they got tons of products!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:06 pm 
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Took a physics class once (or twice, ha!).
No such thing as burning water for energy.
It's all hype.
Every so often someone comes up with a scheme to separate you from your money...this is one of those.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:48 pm 
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You can run a vehicle on hydrogen, proven by the ole mythbusters.

the problemo is the generation of enough hydrogen.

Only everyone is fixated on electrolysis. There are other ways. Chemical reaction or molecular resonance f'rinstance. Its not flat earth society stuff, but it is akin to rocket science.

Edit, just had a quick peep at that web site, most of their collateral is available free online either as patent information or web info from the Keely BBS.

The Joe Cell is the most out there.... Stan Meyers setup the most probable to work. Xogen is proven to work, but iirc its high energy electrolysis, no more, no less.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:32 pm 
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O, I have no doubt that you can run a car on hydrogen and oxygen. It would be an excellent fuel, if you could get it. But so far, I don't know of any process that liberates hydrogen from water for less energy than you get out. I suppose a chemical reaction could work, but then it's not just water that you're running on. It's like cold fusion, lots of people promise they've done it, but no one can demonstrate it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:42 pm 
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Recently on like the discovery channel they had a guy there with solar panels providing the electricity to electrolysis the hydrogen and pumps to compress the gas. His car completely ran on Hydrogen. My 2 cents.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:47 pm 
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How long did it take him to generate enough hydrogen to go anywhere? Solar panels to run pumps and electrolysis seems like it would take days to get enough to go 20 miles...


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:11 pm 
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not too long, he had most of his barn roof covered in panels. Remeber if you buy solar you get rebates and sometimes the power company pays you for electricity. You can power a house with panels easily.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:35 am 
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00Metro wrote:
Recently on like the discovery channel they had a guy there with solar panels providing the electricity to electrolysis the hydrogen and pumps to compress the gas. His car completely ran on Hydrogen. My 2 cents.


Hydrogen electrolysis would be a good shunt load, if you have nothing else to do with the power.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:04 pm 
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If I remember correctly, myth busters did a show on these gas claims and it turned out that none of them worked except for the one that burned vegetable oil in the diesel engine.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:10 am 
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Mythbusters proved a car can run on hydrogen. Well, it was pure hydrogen from a gas bottle. Its quantity that is at stake here.

Here is a left fielder. US Navy has a patent for self heating Divers suits.

The suit material is impregnated with iron and magnesium granules.
quote from the patent " each set of granules becomes a miniature battery when an electrolyte is added (sea water). Heat is generated with a byproduct of "........ you guessed it..... Hydrogen.

So, you electrolyse seawater using ground iron and magnesium.... what else is the byproduct?

Like any battery, hydrogen and oxygen. But wait, theres more. you would also be left with a crystalline residue that holds a whole lot of the more rare elements like selenium etc.

Now you can see why the US Navy never made suits outa this. A wee bit dangerous at depth when welding underwater.
btw, the amount of hydrogen/oxygen released...? considerable.... But then, what do I know?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:19 pm 
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The only purpose of spliting H20 to hydrogen and oxygqen is to make a HYDROGQN BOMB. In specially prepared lab it can be done - splitting water ot atoms I mean.
Imagine that you make your car to use this type of chemical rection. In the lab it is controlled, but in the open it's far too dangerous, especially on hot weather.

Ask firerescue why they do not use water as an estinguisher - at high them water spilts - hydrogen is highly flammable and the Oxygen provides the "air" for burning.

There is a porject that's developed on the theory of running engines on water, but it's different form the traditional one with Internal Consubsion Engine.(I think it used a rotor type engine - aka Vankel)


P.S. I'm sorry for my English. Haven't used it in awhile. Rusty-Rusty.

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:17 am 
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Wanted to resurrect this thread.


Shouldn't have stepped on the younger heads who mentioned it.

Apologies, as this has been on my mind for several weeks.

It's not 'burning water', but electrolysis, and burning of the vapor the electrolysis creates.

Also want to back track and mention that the you tube videos I've seen lead me to think that we need to check this out more thoroughly.
If the Meyer cell can generate enough gas via his 'hyper hydrolysis', and only pull a half volt, then maybe the technology has arrived.
It's certainly worth a try.

The old Physics classes I took were correct; however, back then, vacuum tubes were the mainstay of radios.

I say, out with the old, let's at least experiment and see if we can come up with a workable system now that we have capacitors and diodes. The heat of the Southwest U.S. would indeed make for inherent safety problems. Canadians unite!

For starters, I would improve the Stan Meyer columns by replacing those 'solid tube in solid tube designs' with stainless mesh. The surface area would be phenomenal.

Where's Lihtan when you need him? Bet he could whip something up...if it didn't draw too much juice, might just put our cars way over the top...

Can you imagine our mileage?

:) :) :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:40 am 
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Stan Meyer resonated water, he didn't hyper-electrolyse it.

Explanation, he stretched the molecular bond of the h20 using a ramp waveform at a specific frequency that resonated the molecule til it separated. All the information is out there. He used a resonant tank circuit to split the water into h and o.
His work culminated in facilitating this using something akin to an injector.
The water was resonated on demand. The amount of water required to resonate into enough h and o per cylinder is miniscule.. apparently it worked.

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:02 pm 
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Thank you for the 'stretched bond' over my 'hyper electrolysed' terminology. It is beginning to make a little more sense the way you describe it.

Since it works, a couple of further questions, please:

What about using tubular stainless 'mesh' instead of tubular stainless steel to increase the surface area?

How about some of those videos on the internet that I've seen? Do you have a favorite/have you seen a nice system that is workable?

A little more patience, please:

The Meyer circuit uses a diode and a capacitor, I think. Can you direct me to a nice circuit that I might be able to build?

What about the baking soda? Is it a 'catalyst' or just a buffer? Necessary?

Sorry, this is new 'water' :wink: :wink: :wink: that I'm treading. But have lots of other questions, so be prepared for the worst!!!

:D :D :D

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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 1:39 am 
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The Stan Meyer system incorporated a resonant "tank" circuit that is tuned to a specific frequency. The triangular waveform is modulated on top of that. If you know what you are doing the modulated waveform should be the third harmonic of the carrier.
you can perform a more forceful separation of the water molecule using a high energy impulse through a microwave Klystron. It defeats the purpose though as it takes high energy to create high energy.

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Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.HP is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how much you push the wall out.


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:37 am 
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ellpee wrote:
The Stan Meyer system incorporated a resonant "tank" circuit that is tuned to a specific frequency. The triangular waveform is modulated on top of that. If you know what you are doing the modulated waveform should be the third harmonic of the carrier.
you can perform a more forceful separation of the water molecule using a high energy impulse through a microwave Klystron. It defeats the purpose though as it takes high energy to create high energy.


Well, that's a little complex for my simple brain, but you seem to be the 'go to' guy.

A practical application for our daily drivers seems just around the corner.

Is it based on:
Freedmans
Meyers
Mullers
or
Bedinis?

And can you recommend a direction to go to follow this up?

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Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:46 pm 
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One day, someone may have a break thru, but so far, I haven't seen any over-unity solutions to splitting water, and i doubt it will ever happen. Water is a very very stable molecule and it's very hard to break down.
It basically comes down to this: 2(H20)->2(H2)+1(O2)->2(H20) requires input energy and you cannot create energy. At best you can get out what you put in. Water is just not a good source of hydrogen in this way.
Of course, there are possibilities if we can figure out hydrogen storage. Stationary, large scale hydrogen production with a cheap, clean, non-portable energy source could work, to provide fuel to be used in mobile applications. But it will still be a net loss in energy.


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 2:40 am 
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mrbell321 wrote:
One day, someone may have a break thru, but so far, I haven't seen any over-unity solutions to splitting water, and i doubt it will ever happen. Water is a very very stable molecule and it's very hard to break down.
It basically comes down to this: 2(H20)->2(H2)+1(O2)->2(H20) requires input energy and you cannot create energy. At best you can get out what you put in. Water is just not a good source of hydrogen in this way.
Of course, there are possibilities if we can figure out hydrogen storage. Stationary, large scale hydrogen production with a cheap, clean, non-portable energy source could work, to provide fuel to be used in mobile applications. But it will still be a net loss in energy.


Where do you get the idea that resonating water is an over unity equation? I don't know if you have ever witnessed the recombination of hydrogen and oxygen into water (ie the ex/implosion) but the release of energy is spectacular. Even electrolysis generates the requisite amounts of H and O2 to do this. Is this over unity?
What you are doing is transforming energy from one state to another. then transforming that energy state rather rapidly back again. There, that gets rid of the issues of over-unity.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 11:13 am 
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It takes energy to break water from 2(H20) down into 2(H2) and O2. Where it comes from, sound, electricity, heat, some combination. It takes energy. Doing this can be made very efficient, and you could probably approach 100% efficiency(nearly all of the energy expended is used to break it down instead of wasted in heat or light or sound that doesn't affect the process). Now that you have 2(H2) and O2, you can recombine them and this, indeed, can be spectacular. However, it is NEVER EVER any more powerful than what it took to break them down, chemically speaking. And you will lose some energy to light or heat in the process that is not converted into motion.
If you get more power out than you put in, that would be over-unit and that is what these things suggest. It is just simply against the law of conservation of energy.
Here is an experiment that proves this: Take any setup you like. Whatever is your favorite and makes sense to you and you think will work. Use your device to break down the water, feed it into an engine that turns a generator at full load. Use the generator to power your device. I'll even allow you to add energy to make up for the generator's and engine's inefficiencies, but no more.
Does it work? No? That's because you're trying to build a perpetual motion machine!

Now, it could be possible that some relativistic or sub-nuclear process could help here. I can't say on that. But either of those would require energy far greater than is feasible inside a vehicle today and would still operate at a loss. Nuclear reactions still consume a feedstock(there is less matter in the end) and as far as anyone reasonable has been able to demonstrate, requires alot of power to keep under control. Relativistic effects would only be useful if you can get something with significant mass(much more than a photon) moving near the speed of light. Good luck w/ that.

Another thing that opens up some possibilities is the recovery of otherwise wasted energy, or use at a calculated and acceptable loss. In my opinion, there are much more efficient and simple ways to do that.


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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:55 pm 
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I was walking the path of MrBell321 until I watched a few online homemade videos.
Realizing the source is not super reliable, it has opened my mind to the possiblility that these products may not be 'snake oil'.

Hope I'm right.

Some young Australian has a nice you tube video with his swift modified, and these are very recent efforts.
Perhaps they are not a waste of time, that's all I'm saying.

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Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:49 am 
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Well my 2 cents.
The laws are there to be broken. We break them fom time to time. ONE is the helicopter its not suppose to be able to fly but as we all know it does. Man said at one time that we couldnt fly to the moon, but look at us now.
With that said you can run your car on hydrogen and run it as an additive. I've seen this done. One thing your forgitting is that hydrogen burn ALOT FASTER AND STRONGER than gas. So much so that if you run it in your car you MUST retard your timing. Right now the problem with running on hydrogen is (his point) it takes much electricity (12v) to make enough hydrogen to see any gain.

Just a little info--- 1 ALT makes 12v witch runs one pod (pod = contanier that makes the hydrogen) 1 pod makes 1 PSI of hydrogen. You need at lest 5 PSI of hydrogen to see anything, and thats just using it as an additive and dont forget you must retard your timing some. So you will need to run 5 ALT see anything but to run 5 ALT your not going to see anything because they are taking more power run them than your getting.

But that is for now.

Years ago NOBODY even knew that you could make hydrogen from water, IT WAS THE LAW. We break these so called laws all the time. When you put limits on yourself then that where you will STAY.

TRY THING OUTSIDE OF THE BOX!!!


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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:07 am 
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Quote:
Here is an experiment that proves this: Take any setup you like. Whatever is your favorite and makes sense to you and you think will work. Use your device to break down the water, feed it into an engine that turns a generator at full load. Use the generator to power your device. I'll even allow you to add energy to make up for the generator's and engine's inefficiencies, but no more.
Does it work? No? That's because you're trying to build a perpetual motion machine!


Here is an experiment that proves my point (THINKING OUT SIDE OF THE BOX)
You want to make hydrogen from water right. Well you could use a water fall (that cost you nothing) to make the electricity then use the electricity to make the hydrogen to run your car. All free.

Or use use the Sun (using solar panels)(also free) to make the electricity then use the electricity to make the hydrogen to run your car. All free.


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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:13 am 
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True. But you'd get much further, faster by using the waterfall or solar to charge a battery/ultracap and run an electric car. ICEs are at best around 40% efficient. In practice, they are less than 30%. A good electric motor w/ proper controller can be 95% efficient and you get benefits like regenerative breaking, not wasting energy while at a stop, and alternative sources for power(anywhere there is a grid).
Also, your methods require a storage medium for hydrogen. Hydrogen does not pack well unless you compress it. That takes even more energy.

The reason water is so common is that it is very stable. It has very low energy. On the other hand, hydrogen and oxygen are very reactive and have high energy. When you combine them, they react, drop to the low energy state and you get energy and water.
Hydrogen from electrolysis of takes low energy, adds some more energy and you get high energy hydrogen and oxygen. The job of electrolysis is to lift something from one energy state to another. Burning it is dropping from high to low. So, do you want to keep lifting something heavy only to have it dropped so you can pick it up again?


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