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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:09 am 
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Just read this thread for the first time tonight.
I've seen a lot of talk - debate - on the subject in many different forums, with some comments crossing the line into personal-attack territory... not cool!
To date, this thread seems to pretty much sum up what I've already read out there "in the wild".

While I've read comments that these installations have been either a success or a failure for the person leaving the post, I don't recall them stating whether they addressed the oxygen sensor feedback loop or used a PWM (Pulse width modulator) with their system. I've also seen web sites that show the finished project (including the Geo Tracker web page), but at this time I have yet to see any complete blow-by-blow documentation, in a leave-no-stone-uncovered approach, for an HHO installation (and any detailed subsequent analysis of it's affect on MPG).

For those of you who know me - or at least my style of posted messages (Phil N Ed, Wired, & T3ragtop for starters,) I'm sure you're not the least bit surprised to see me state...
That's about to change.

I'll be starting a thread in this section for Copper Top, my 1993 Metro XFI conversion project that is currently averaging about 38city/48highway with 3Tech's econo cam and +6 advanced cam sprocket, and while my rig has only hit 50.1 mpg once (a little bit disappointing) I suspect it's because I insist on tooling around on a set of snow tires that grip the road like nobody's business. Be it a semi or a strong side wind, nothing short of well worn ruts on the freeway will cause the car to drift off course.
Like the saying goes... "Safety first!"

For the record, and until I see evidence that proves otherwise, I am in the camp of those who believe the fast burn rate of HHO results in a more complete burn of the gasoline and thereby increases engine energy conversion efficiency.

Last year I designed and built what I call the G-Whiz electrolyzer cell. It's a variation on the G-Cell idea seen on You-tube, and uses - drum roll please - stainless steel mesh.
Yes, Phil and Ed, you read that right! LOL!
However, I built it before becoming aware of, and now having reservations about the hexavalent chromium issue. So, I will eventually retire this cell in favor of something made of titanium, magnesium, or some other more suitable material, even if I can't find it in the form of a screen mesh material.

But for now, I just want to get my licks in and see how well the mesh design works.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:42 am 
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Before you start make sure your engine is in good condition. One of the biggest reasons that gimmicks like HHO and Acetone in your gas get positive reviews is because they help engines with problems. A fresh engine with a modern ignition and fuel injection system works very well. When things are not optimum, these kind of "additives" can improve combustion. Fixing the car would improve it too.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:16 am 
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Woodie wrote:
Before you start make sure your engine is in good condition. One of the biggest reasons that gimmicks like HHO and Acetone in your gas get positive reviews is because they help engines with problems. A fresh engine with a modern ignition and fuel injection system works very well. When things are not optimum, these kind of "additives" can improve combustion. Fixing the car would improve it too.


:)
Copper Top was rebuilt - twice - last year.
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=39843


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:34 am 
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Well, well well.
It will be interesting to see how your SS mesh works out.

There's a lot of info out there, but so far, I haven't converted. That is to say, what I learned in Physics still applies.

Having an open mind is important, so I'll be watching your build. With advances in electricity, perhaps the draw on the alternator can now be made miniscule, and your Hydrogen gas generator will actually supplement the gasoline to the point of a positive return.

Alternator life should decrease. In any case, go get 'em!

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Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:17 pm 
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Yup. :)
I just want to see for myself if this stuff really works, and if so, how well.

No eqo... just a boat load of curiosity and an attitude that I bought the Metro and did the XFI conversion for the gas savings, so why stop there? You know?

I've said it before & I'll say it again. I love being able to go an entire month between fill ups as is.

So, if this turns out to be the real deal and not a bunch of snake oil, smoke, and mirrors, then my attitude is, let's see how far we can push the envelope without any changes to my driving style! :twisted:

While we're on the subject of alternators, well... ultimately I want to install a generator - not an alternator - where the air conditioning compressor would normally mount.
If it can be done, there are two major advantages:
    - Engine RPMs will dictate the voltage output, which will dictate the amount of production from the cell
    - Engine not running = no cell production = zero chance of blowing myself up when I first start the car! :mrgreen:

The problem is finding a generator small enough to fit in that confined space with a pulley and mounting bracket that will be compatible for the job.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:10 am 
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Lots of generators around for tractors and such, but they're a pain in the butt!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:01 am 
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Oh? How so?
I know the VW generator is heavier than it looks.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:42 pm 
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Great to see your enthusiasm for it G-Whiz. I did have a cell (7Plated SS encased in Plexi Glass) mounted behind the bumper of my 87 Turbo Sprint. It produced well. I had a PWM (burned three of them first) and a control box in my car. I am (was more, before) interested in it but have spent a decent amount of money and time to have it just be time and money. If I was independently wealthy I would proabably still be working on it :D Anyway there are so many things to think about and talk about. Such as, the real work is going to be not losing any of the energy that you convert from fossil fuel into mechanical (the belt driving the alternator/generator)then from mechanical into electrical(alternator/generator), and then from electrical into chemical (HHO) and then from chemical energy into mechanical again. Each phase of the energy transfer presents a possibility of loss, in fact most believe it impossible not to lose some at each conversion point to where you are getting less at the end of the train. Many mathimatical equations have been tested here and there has been a ton of work done on this and some think that you may end up with less energy but that the HHO even though less energy magnifies the possibilities of the engine and thus your gain.
Wow I sound pretty far out. Anyway it intrigues me very much as Hydrogen is such a powerful source of energy and so abundant and yet we haven't found how to really harness it efficiently and safely.
There was a lot of enjoyment in building my cells (3 or 4 different ones) each time I refined it and each time it got a little more efficient and expensive. :D I do plan on making one more attempt at it with my 97 metro as it has an OBD II and I can control the fuel with an EFIE (unable to do that really with the 87 Sprint Turbo, without a lot more work than I could do.)
Why don't you post on here what you have and what your thinking about building. I may be able to help with a few ideas.
Well good luck, Otto


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:49 pm 
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Guess I should have given the thread address!
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=44461

There's one other angle with the electrolyzer that I don't recall seeing any discussion on and I'll have to experiment with that too... it's something that gets lost in all the ranting and raving about various types of efficiency losses associated with HHO production...

Since Copper Top sees the bulk of it's use for tooling around town and commuting 15 miles round-trip to work and back, unless I find some results for someone who has already tried it, at some point I plan to throw a gel-cell battery in the back of the car that I can charge at home. This battery will serve as the power source for the electrolyzer - so there's no extra load on the motor, other than adding 40-50 pounds to the curb weight of the car.

It'll be interesting to see how far the car can go between charges, but I presume that even a marine deep cycle gel-cell can only handle so many charge/discharge cycles. If that's the case, does anybody out there know how long they can actually last?

Considering the cost of charging and the periodic replacement cost (not to mention the environmental cost associated with manufacturing the batteries in the first place) I would doubt this is a practical solution, but still, it would be nice to know!

And what do I do if I'm out driving around when the battery discharges and cant power the cell?
I'll just flip a switch to power the cell off the alternator until I get home!


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