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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:26 am 
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Also, everything that you mentioned as being "laws" aren't really laws. They were areas of insufficient knowledge. In fact, there aren't even "laws" anymore. It's not Einstein's LAW of relativity. It's still a theory. It's a theory that has been proven, and it's a theory that is the basis for nuclear energy which we all know works. But it's still a theory because it could be wrong(and from what I've been reading lately, it may very well be).
However, every theory that has been supported by any repeatable experiment says, as you admitted, that you cannot get enough hydrogen out of water thru electrolysis and put into an ICE to build a self sustaining cycle.
As I said earlier, a nuclear or relativistic approach might yield something, but a purely chemical reaction of water and electricity will not.
There is thinking outside the box, and then there is stubborn persistence in belief of the impossible in spite of the last 200 years of chemical and electrical research.
If you want to think outside the box, think of a way to not drive a car.


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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:22 pm 
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So are you telling me that the videos I've been looking at on "you tube" are hoaxes?

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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 4:41 pm 
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They could be hoaxes or they could be misinterpretations. For some reason, devices like this tend to come from less than reliable sources. The concept of "free energy" and perpetual motion has been around for centuries. Alot of people have good intentions, and they may build something that seems to work and it might even appear to work for a short time(such as a youtube video). But it's not going to be something repeatable or sustainable. There were 100mpg carburetor demonstrations in the 60s. You still can't build a working model. It's not that the oil companies are supressing this. The automakers have way too much to lose. If some third party came out w/ a 100mpg vehicle GM, Ford, Toyota, etc would all be on the losing end. They are NOT that dumb. They may be slow, but they're not that dumb.


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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:56 pm 
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ellpee wrote:
mrbell321 wrote:
One day, someone may have a break thru, but so far, I haven't seen any over-unity solutions to splitting water, and i doubt it will ever happen. Water is a very very stable molecule and it's very hard to break down.
It basically comes down to this: 2(H20)->2(H2)+1(O2)->2(H20) requires input energy and you cannot create energy. At best you can get out what you put in. Water is just not a good source of hydrogen in this way.
Of course, there are possibilities if we can figure out hydrogen storage. Stationary, large scale hydrogen production with a cheap, clean, non-portable energy source could work, to provide fuel to be used in mobile applications. But it will still be a net loss in energy.


Where do you get the idea that resonating water is an over unity equation? I don't know if you have ever witnessed the recombination of hydrogen and oxygen into water (ie the ex/implosion) but the release of energy is spectacular. Even electrolysis generates the requisite amounts of H and O2 to do this. Is this over unity?
What you are doing is transforming energy from one state to another. then transforming that energy state rather rapidly back again. There, that gets rid of the issues of over-unity.


Overunity in this context means it is greater than Faraday's law would allow for. If you want a to try building one, search for a file : D9.pdf on most of the electrolysis sites. If you can't find it, PM me.

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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 10:22 pm 
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just wanted to chime in on the hho concept. at my dealership another tech and i have made a cell out of stainless steel outlet blanks, 4 inch pcv pipe one foot deep, distilled water, and a couple of tablespoons of baking soda. fitting out the top of the screw on lid. clear plastic hose and whala at 15 amps 12 volts and 100 degrees we can make enough gas to change fuel trim at idle on 3.8 L 06 minivan. we are working on testing different electrolyte and configurations. now that we think we have enough output . 1 liter of gas a minute with the new set up. need to make it safe and we will truly see if it works. will try to post pics soon. curious if anyone actually knows fuel to hydrogen ratio numbers.


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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 11:08 pm 
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I built a crappy "Hydrogen Generator" out of a couple butter knives, a plastic jar and a check valve in about 10 min. I saw the same basic setup on a semi at work last week and the driver claimed that he almost doubled his mileage. It was worth shot for about $10. I'm going to check my mileage when i fill it up. I do know that i was able to go about 20 miles farther on half a tank today.

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 12:21 am 
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Yep, I'm thinking it's possible.
15 amps is too much, though.
Got to get a configuration which won't pull so many amps.

If it will supplement our fuel supplies...at this stage, I will say it's something to take a close look at.

The truck has a huge alternator compared to our cars, but a nice small setup which will increase our mileage might just be the ticket.

I can't believe I'm saying this; it goes against what I learned in Physics...nevertheless, I'm hoping something simple and workable can be designed by some of the more 'engineer' types on this site.

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 5:47 am 
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a word on safety, don't forget the bubbler or some form of anti flashback valve. Hydrogen has a funny habit of flashing back the feed path.

And if you are up to it, try this....

Store a litre of hydrogen in an empty plastic coke bottle.
Use an old coil, spark plug (upside down on a stand)and battery and a looong 12 volt lead to energise the coil.

Place the coke bottle over the spark plug. strike a spark through the coil...

Warning 1. Wear ear defenders.
Warning 2. If you are in a built up area, supply ear defenders for all neighbours within a block
Warning 3. Have a good excuse when the armed offenders squad are called out....

At least 40 feet of cable between you and the bottle please and scrutinise the bottle afterward. It has actually imploded after the explosion.

A foaf made up a rude torch assy to burn the gas produced from his plant. The torch burns so hot and fine, he can cut a machine hacksaw blade lengthways and keep its tensile properties. Also he can heat rock so hot, he can weld metal to it...

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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 6:11 am 
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hypertex wrote:


Overunity in this context means it is greater than Faraday's law would allow for. If you want a to try building one, search for a file : D9.pdf on most of the electrolysis sites. If you can't find it, PM me.


Hey I just reviewed that pdf .Damn me but the guys is on the button. Funny how his pulse waveforms of various frequencies would add up to look like a triangular ramp? actually ramp up and ramp down... he is using pulse energy instead of sinewaves. And the frequencies are within the "known" or recognised parameters for resonating H2O.

Also, strange he goes to the point of conditioning the cells for monatomic production. The Joe Cell (aussie nutcase) does the same thing. Interesting also he mentions resonance, but the construct of the cell does not take the form of a resonant tank circuit. He is so close! I might play with the pulse theory, A damn sight cheaper than signal generators.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:58 am 
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I am interested to know if anyone has made a HHO generator setup for thier metro, and running thier car on HHO and Gas at the same time.. I assume it would help mpg.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:55 pm 
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I bought the plans, they are very interesting, and however I had a very hard time finding the materials to build one. The stainless tubing size is very hard to find.

While reviewing the build options a mechanic reminded me why this is not a good idea. The by product is water. Water will get into your engine and overtime cause lots of problems. It will attack all of your bearing and will mix with your oil causing a foaming.

Water inside your engine is not a good idea. Burning Hydrogen may work for a time. But overtime water will get into the engine.

I believe "Hydrogen Cars" are using fuel cell technology not combustion.

Any thoughts?
Tayne


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:31 pm 
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Ever heard of water injection? Water is already a byproduct of combustion... just watch the exhaust pipe on the car after you start it up. Besides, it's already ingesting water to begin with, depending on the humidity of the air.

That's why we do maintenance on our vehicles. Unless it's getting into the oil somehow, water isn't really a threat to the engine since combustion tends to get rid of any vapor that may be present. Unless of course you suck a huge slug and hydrolock the engine.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:02 pm 
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Ok guys I've jumped in on this a little late put I wanted to post a link to another forum that I've been lurking on and reading their experiments. If you want to see pictures and attachments then you will need to register with the forum but It's worth it. Take the fallowing information however you want as I haven't tried any of it but I'm seriously considering an experiment or to. :huh: They claim to be able to produce 1.7 lpm of hydrogen and say you only need 250 ml per liter of engine displacement in order to use as a booster. NOT capable of running car on water alone but their are a lot of ppl trying. Thats just what they are saying, again I haven't tryed anything yet.

Sorry if this is a repost.
http://www.energeticforum.com/

Hydrogen booster experiments:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1480-all-about-electrolysers-hho-joecells-ect.html
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1875-hho-vehicles-questions.html

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:18 am 
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I did a bit of looking into this. There are some severe deficiencies in the knowledge of the people posting on youtube. First thing I noticed is they seem to think 1L of HHO gas at regular atmospheric pressure has the same energy as 1L of petroleum gasoline. You can blow up a soda bottle w/ 1L of HHO pretty well. 1L of gasoline, properly distributed into the air could probably destroy a small house. Clearly not the same level of energy.
Second 30amps is ALOT of electricity, and that seemed to be the minimum several of those videos suggested using. Up to 60 amps. That kind of power will require a dedicated circuit with very heavy duty wire and a very large alternator unless you just love to buy car batteries and dont' plan on going more than a mile at a time.

I'll think about believing in this when someone with some credibility makes it work. Most of these people seem like they think they've been abducted by aliens as well. Another ridiculous and very easily explained phenomenon which, surprise surprise, has nothing to do w/ aliens. ...unless they are from Guatemala.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 pm 
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mrbell321 wrote:
I did a bit of looking into this. There are some severe deficiencies in the knowledge of the people posting on youtube. First thing I noticed is they seem to think 1L of HHO gas at regular atmospheric pressure has the same energy as 1L of petroleum gasoline. You can blow up a soda bottle w/ 1L of HHO pretty well. 1L of gasoline, properly distributed into the air could probably destroy a small house. Clearly not the same level of energy.
Second 30amps is ALOT of electricity, and that seemed to be the minimum several of those videos suggested using. Up to 60 amps. That kind of power will require a dedicated circuit with very heavy duty wire and a very large alternator unless you just love to buy car batteries and dont' plan on going more than a mile at a time.

I'll think about believing in this when someone with some credibility makes it work. Most of these people seem like they think they've been abducted by aliens as well. Another ridiculous and very easily explained phenomenon which, surprise surprise, has nothing to do w/ aliens. ...unless they are from Guatemala.


The amps has me concerned as well, however...
if it is possible, and someone does come up with a system which works, even on a rudimentary basis, kindly point me in that direction.

Don't want to 'poo poo' the idea and then find out that there actually is a clever way to do it...

...even as a 'gasoline assist' idea, it might be feasible.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:55 pm 
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Some of the guys at work are messing with these, if we get anything that looks promising I plan on trying it on my Geo. :) here is a link with good information that i have found on the net.

http://free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf

"I think" the 60 amp and up versions are more for building a brown gas torch, and not for your engine , but I have just started researching this so its all new to me. GL to anyone who can help us all save a buck. Then again if i could gain some horse power and no MPG loss that would be ok too lol just my 2 cents


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:16 am 
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Thank you, molestedmotor.
The link is just what I was looking for.
It puts into simple language what the HHO people are trying to do.
They should just try to 'boost' their mileage, not run their cars on it solo.

It's 148 pages, so I'll save it to my computer, read it, and get back to this thread.
So far, the

1.) Hotsabi
2.) Smack's Cell
and
3.) 7 cell

are as far as I've read, but that's what I'm after.

These systems are NOT snake oil, and they MIGHT work on our cars.
I hope some of our 'sound deadener' generation or younger members give this a try! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


OK, I've read the 148 pages, and I recommend you start with page 145:
Water as a Fuel
He makes very good sense.
These systems DO NOT use water as a fuel. You will have to read his explanation, and I agree.
Now, the 3 systems above seem archaic, and I would prefer one of the more 'high-tech' systems described in the chapter.
The systems need to be looked at carefully, and again, I say...they MAY work!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:18 pm 
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Yep, read the water as fuel section and browsed over the rest. There is still just a little bit of logical info w/ a whole lot of silly sounding pseudo-science.
Once again, it's a bunch of crap.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:23 am 
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Here is a link to a GEO Tracker running hho gas :P go go daddyo
:mrgreen:
http://www.hho4free.com


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:26 pm 
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OK
That system is NOT snake oil.
He's an older gentleman whose been around engines and electronics all his life, or so it seems.
The system looks simple enough, but it is NOT cheap.

I like the way he monitors battery voltage,
varies the MAP sensor voltage
kicks 200 millivolts to the oxygen sensor
has the 80 amp relay
has the 80 amp circuit breaker....

I don't know yet about his

'plasma' spark plugs...they sound interesting
??? hi tech stainless/copper spark plug wires with no resistance and
60 amp coil.

Not saying they're wrong; just wondering if it affects his radio reception.
I see he does have a radio in the Tracker, so he must have a fix.

Bottom line?

I really think it's the future, and if the younger members could take a closer look at this, we might be pleasantly surprised.

The PWM needs a little more explanation, and to increase reliability, it would have to withstand some high heats here in the desert, but I admire what he's done.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:08 am 
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molestedmotor wrote:
Here is a link to a GEO Tracker running hho gas :P go go daddyo
:mrgreen:
http://www.hho4free.com



link doesn't work :huh:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:27 pm 
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The link works fine.
Click on the video you want to view. It might take a while to download; one video was over 10 mins.

Another thing I had a slight reservation:
He puts the gas into the vacuum hose going to the brake booster.

Maybe he could do something a little different there.

I kinda like to have my brake system somewhat isolated.........

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:01 pm 
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the PWM controller allows you to dial down the current as well as cycling the plate voltage. the brute force systems, battery voltage tied directly to the cell, create an awful lot of heat in the cell. the actual function of electrical energy to break free the hydrogen molecules is often mistaken for the water boiling, making steam. the process at it's best wouldn't boil the water. if you use a pulse width modulation technique it limits the heat and hence boiling within the cell.

as with every other system (except one, the first one i ever saw) there is no way to modulate the input of gas to the engine. consider what that does to the actual combustion and air fuel mixture. if there is no way to meter the gas as a fuel while adding air in a manner which produces a stoichometric combustion, you have no real control over hydrogen gas (or more correctly, brown's gas) as use as a fuel.

while the tracker has a cleaner installation and better, though rudimentary controls, it still doesn't impress me much and it still burns gasoline. if it was executed correctly there would be no need to trick the o2 sensor circuit to lean the injected gasoline component. a correct application would incorporate the brown's gas as a fuel component and make the overall global feedback from the o2 sensor it's actual value.

i can arbitrarily manipulate the o2 feedback to lean the afr with the resultant fuel economy without using brown's gas.

every system i have seen uses vacuum to waft hho into the system without any control of the process. when and if i ever see a system that stores compressed gas and injects it in useable amounts with precise control, then i'll start to have some hope that there is a viable option of using hydrogen as a fuel. until then it's just more of a sideshow. =)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:40 pm 
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Aha!
It seems we have another fairly accomplished mechanic who's a skeptic, rather than a naysayer.
T3 ragtop, do you think it would work in my MKII's (1989-1991), or my MKIII's (92-94)? Remember, the ambient temps here are pretty high.

We haven't graduated to the MKIV's out here, as my wife is not fond of their 'alien' look. Air bags, side bars, or butt supports? Low population density and wife weighs in at 100 soaking wet, so doubt she's interested for awhile. When she starts worrying about wrecks and aches, I guess we'll need to fix one up.

Do you suppose an onboard compressor set up would be possible to store the 'Brown's gas'?

I mention the Mark 4's because I think they went to a wide band. What's the bid deal about varying the voltage on the O2 sensor? Seems like a simple enough way to fool the ECM.
(Not my idea...just an observation)

Because we're talking about a gas assist vehicle, it's important to note that timing needs to be retarded. Does that let out my MK1's? (1984-1988) I didn't see how the fellow with the Tracker retarded his spark. What State was that?

Hope this terminology didn't take away from my questions. We're still in the planning stages...

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:52 pm 
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phil,

stan meyers is the only man i know who actually accomplished generating hydrogen in sufficient quantity to fuel an 1100cc vw engine and actually power a lightened (dune buggy) car.

the things i see in the spread of this technology by people who only have the vision to see certain focused areas are alarming to me.

first of all, no matter how sophisicated the system i've seen, nobody has bothered to consider the true environmental impact now that uneducated people have started to mimic the technology. even the geo tracker guy, whose system is easily ahead of most, uses a brute force method of generating gas in his cell. news flash!!!!!! people who use 12 volts, or even sophisicates who try the pwm technique miss the mark completely. did you ever see the hot dog cookers from years ago where you stuck the fork into the dog and plugged it in? when the weiner split open, you unplugged the fork and ate the hot dog. nearly every contrived hho cell i've seen on the internet operates in a fashion that draws huge amperage, has too high a voltage, and ends up heating the anode and cathode to a temperature that creates more steam than brown's gas.

the design point is to apply electrical energy to just the point that h2o molecules are split to release the hydrogen molecule. in the lab, you find that point at about 2 volts - it's different depending on variables like total solids in solution and conductivity. both of those things vary widely from point to point in the usa. in new mexico, once the floor of the great permian ocean, the water has a very high salt content. the solids in the water and their propensity to conduct an electrical current would require less than 2 volts to pass the same number of joules as pure, distilled, de-ionized water.

that needs to be addressed and there aren't all that many people designing the power supply needed to get this done. most don't have a clue. another thing is that the supply not only has to pass high currents at a low voltage, it also needs to be run by an oscillator to do a fairly high frequency pulse, the frequency being very important to splitting the water molecule.

my next objection to releasing this "notion of an idea of a money saver" before the technology is fully developed is of a serious social issue.

the best designs for a cell incorporate stainless steel for the electrodes. nobody seems to spec the alloy, it's just "stainless steel." hydrogen all by itself is very active. it wants to covalently bond to something and since hydrogen has a molecular weight of 1, it'll combine in any number to attach itself in groups to other molecules. oxygen has a weight of 2, 2 hydrogen molecules grab the oxygen molecule to form h2o, water. given an equal opportunity, hydrogen will grab a sulphur molecule and an oxygen molecule to form h2so4, hydrogen sulfide - poisonous as hell.

what does hydrogen do to stainless alloys? it bores into plate and leeches out hexavalent chromium 6 and 3, some cadmium, some boron, etc. all of the stuff essentially boils down to toxic swill and heavy metals, all of the stuff bad for the environment, little of the stuff capable of being processed by a good metro area's sewage treatment plant. every factory that generates those waste streams are required by law to remove the pollutants before discharge into a municipality's sewerage system. if that brown swill from every yahoo's hack hydrogen generator gets dumped into a stormwater basin and is discharged directly into a creek or river or even gets poured down the toilet and takes a trip through a treatment plant (eventually being discharged into a creek or river) it's still going downstream to the next town. believe me when i tell you that we are all downstream of somebody else. how does the thought of ingesting hexavalent chromium sit with you? nothing short of an evaporative technique or reverse osmosis via a special membrane will ever make that polluted water potable again in your lifetime.

the cheap asses who are playing with these systems aren't smart enough to realize that they're poisoning their kids. they aren't committed enough to pay the cost of using titanium and inconel alloy plates for the electrodes (the inconel being so hard that almost no sacrifice is made and the titanium breaking down and spalling titanium dioxide, a fairly innocuous molecule used as a white pigment in paint.)

i never said that this couldn't be viable. as a matter of fact, i know it can be done. it won't however, be done by some mechanic with no scientific background no matter how much is posted on the internet and it most definitely will never be done the right way without a major player standardizing a safe set of design rules.

with a bit of tweaking, the fuel cells that nasa developed for space craft are more efficient and more environmentally sound. it also changes the playing field in that a reciprocating combustion engine is replaced by electric traction motors. a desireable benefit is that you can plug your car into your house and use the power from the fuel cell to power your home. it also relieves a requirement to have big, environmentally questionable batteries in your car. different technology, bigger yield, less of an environmental problem. high technology not yet a garage standard and hence, not widely supported.

in essence, i think that hydrogen power is a great idea if it is handled correctly. to let the snake oil salesmen loose on the public without bringing the overall standard of knowledge of the technology up, including it's warts, is being disingenuous.

my old acquaintance, stan meyers, would stand in horror knowing that he had let the genie out of the bottle for this type of pollution. he wanted to build something to benefit man, not to poison him.

it's ironic that he met his demise by being poisoned himself.

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