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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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 Post subject: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:37 am 
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Location: ALBANY,NY
i was looking under my 01 swift and got to thinking!! what if u were able to make flat pannels to cover some of the open space? i had some flat plastic pieces laying around and i did some guestamits and it would seem to work. i dont know if it would increase any mpgs? less drag running under the car... anybody understand what im sayin? dont f1 cars an nascar do crazy things like that!! let me know.....

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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:43 am 
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Location: Abbotsford, BC
yes this is a good idea. also a spoiler in the front of the car, low and this will block the air from going under

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2000 Firefly 1.3 SOHC 16VALVE AUTO. Goals: full restoration, achieve stock MPG and HP or higher, finished look should be 'stealthy' and unassuming. Engine will need to be rebuilt later on to restore compression levels.


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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:55 am 
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Location: colorado
i would be careful using plastic near heat sources, it could catch on fire. I was thinking of using some sheet metal to do the same thing, but I haven't gotten under the car to look at the areas yet. But yes others are thinking of this also.

Jon :drunk:

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'91 Geo Metro 3cyl 5 speed 12" wheels 50 + MPG.
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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:59 am 
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Location: Eastern Ontario
FYI I tested a complete undertray, front to rear, and measured about a 2% improvement in MPG.

6 bi-directional runs @ 90 km/h (56 mph).

3 with, 3 without the undertray .

57.78 mpg (US) - with undertray
56.55 mpg (US) - without undertray

1.23 mpg difference, or 2.2% increase with tray

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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:57 pm
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Location: colorado
Hey do you have any pictures of this under tray you are talking about that you tested? I would be very interested in seeing them.

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Jon

'91 Geo Metro 3cyl 5 speed 12" wheels 50 + MPG.
'37 Chevy Coupe
'00 VW Passat 4Motion Wagon
'95 GMC Pickup short bed 4x4
'82 28 foot rv, but diesel is too expensive to drive now.


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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:24 am 
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Location: ALBANY,NY
id also love some pics..was it a full kit? did u feel any handling improvements?

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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:35 am 
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Location: Brentwood, CA
I seem to remember some pictures on one of the Bonneville LSR sites. Land Speed Record cars (the classes that allow underbody areo mods) are ripe with ideas. Their is something called a 'step pan' that I don't quite understand yet, but many classes don't allow it (downforce maybe?)

.040" aluminum that has been powdercoated is readily available through your local dirt track stock car supply house in 4' x 12' sizes, sold by the sheet in different colors at a reasonable price. Those guys build bodies from that stuff everyday, many take on side work to support their Saturday night 'need for speed'. just an idea


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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 12:27 pm
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Location: Ventura, CA, USA
you could do it your self if you wanted. look at my pictures of the panneling i did in my geo. .040 alum 4x10 sheet, made some tempelets and bought some shears and started going to town, and fasened with rivots. came out pretty good for a first timer.

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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:52 pm 
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im going to be making mine out of fiberglass, so easy to work with, very light.

itll also result in higher top speeds!

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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:37 pm 
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Location: Palm Springs: Too hot from June to Oct.!
1995Firefly4dr wrote:
yes this is a good idea. also a spoiler in the front of the car, low and this will block the air from going under

Yep, it's a good idea.
Something smooth, flat, and 'slippery'.
Ha!
Seriously, it couldn't hurt...maybe use flush rivets and super thin aluminum.

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Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:21 pm 
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Sad but True...

Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:20 pm
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Location: Saskatchewan
Phil N Ed wrote:
1995Firefly4dr wrote:
yes this is a good idea. also a spoiler in the front of the car, low and this will block the air from going under

Yep, it's a good idea.
Something smooth, flat, and 'slippery'.
Ha!
Seriously, it couldn't hurt...maybe use flush rivets and super thin aluminum.

or about 10$ worth of fiberglass material

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1996 Metro Build QR25de swap, still undecided where to take it
the lolcar family


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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:33 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:00 pm
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Location: ALBANY,NY
id like to just make a nice front kit. and a small one for the back. it would clean it up a lil too. nice posts guys. keep everyone updated on which works good. i know metropwr had a nice lil splitter on his front bumper.

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2001 suzuki swift GA. gutted,srd headers,straight piped,SRI,50mm tb,ported intake manifold,coolant bypass,3tech cam.
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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:57 pm 
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Location: Fontana, CA
Yes this has been discussed before, I found this pic in the Gallery here its called a diffuser. I want to make one to

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Last edited by raygo on Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:04 pm 
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Location: Ventura, CA, USA
easy 2 make ray. alum again, shears, rivots, done. easy easy.

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94' geo 3 cyl 5 speed
98' toyota 4runner
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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:22 am 
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Location: aux nz
hey there,
quick message to cookie monster, raygo and 2-stix.
interested in what you found out about the underbody aerokit, toyed with the thought in my head and reading your conversations you bring some good debate to thought, i point mainly to the generalisation of the heat and the posability of plastics to be used.

I am a boatbuilder but hold a stronger intrest in cars and have learnt in the last few years some great skills involving frp's (fibre reinforced plastics) including foam core layups, different styles of matting as well as resin infusion and different types of resins all helping with weight and strength all contributing to lightweight efficancy. i am also looking into the options of urethane plastics for kits.

Fy1 6 bi-directional runs @ 90km they recorded with a 2% mpg improvement, i imagine it to be a similar concept as the diffuser as in raygo's posts.
in relation to 2-stix thoughts of alumium what thickness material are you thinking of and do you think the speed generated force against the surface, i can see to thin of a material warping and flexing alot causing differences in aerodynamics not that i really know, have to do some R&D to discover that.
i was thinking of using a foam core of between 15-25mm carbonfibre laminate and taking the heat into consideration use of possabily as thin as 1 -3mm aluminium with a swage adding to the strength for the track.

But as a thought for rally with your swifts stone, damage (again a bit of R&D maybe called for) but could easily be solved by forming a thin (again1 - 3mm) aluminium shield over the bulk of the laminate as a prtection layer or as simple as some anti stone chip under seal may solve this.

interested in your thoughts so get back to me
id1kits@windowslive.com


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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:51 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:06 pm
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Location: Atlanta GA 30052
geometro wrote:
FYI I tested a complete undertray, front to rear, and measured about a 2% improvement in MPG.

1. Re. savings:
If we can save 2% on gas. Last yr i spent around $1000. My savings would be $20/yr.

Even at $4/gal and 50mpg, the cost is 8 cents/mi and the saving is 0.16 cents/mi.
During 15,000 miles the saving is $24.


2. Re. F1 etc.
Racing teams invest in underbody trays to reduce lift on the 200+mph $300,000+ cars.
I have found a front spoiler alone is very effective from 70-170mph.

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looking for:
the time i mispent in my youth

daily driver: red 1991 Metro 3cyl 5sp, roof rack, 8 degree advance,
got 61 mpg combined on 14" tires but i prefer 12"

completed frame up restoration: black 1994 Swift GT 5sp -- like new ! 45mpg


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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:51 am 
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Location: ALBANY,NY
im hoping to again get this going. going to just do a front type splitter and maybe a rear diffuser. going to just use alum sheet metal. tryn be cost effective. anyone get any pics of things they have said to be working on?

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2001 suzuki swift GA. gutted,srd headers,straight piped,SRI,50mm tb,ported intake manifold,coolant bypass,3tech cam.
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Last edited by COOKIEMNSTR on Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:04 pm 
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Posts: 173
Location: Canada
A front skirt might be easier.

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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:39 am 
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Location: Twin Mosquitos MN
Just my opinion here, but leave the underside stuff alone unless its not street legal.

In the 1940s and 50s designers left the car bottoms flat to simplify production and get that bit of extra speed. Then they noted cars were turning into Frisbees skipping off expansion joint and bumps with little weight left on the road surface from air rammed under the car, and God help you if those vehicles ever presented anything but a head-on profile at top speed or needed to turn on rough road. AND that was on 3500 pound land-yachts. I have floated a Z-28 on Montana Interstate from their (%@#) frost heave concrete, the car wanting to skew and end up anywhere but the center of the lane. Only took one time.

So they added allowances to dump trapped air - Don't undo it.

What would be better exercise is a good front air dam (that won't self destruct on street debris) and rocker panel extensions to keep air out and force any turbulent vortexes formed to occur as far back on the vehicle as possible. A good example would be the "anti' ground effect dressings on the latest coast-to-coast tractor trailer combos...

One thing I have done on my lifted 1999 F-150 daily driver is keep any underside components that interrupt air flow painted smooth and glossy - no sand blasted rusted metal can be seen from under the bumper front view, also painted the rear axle and springs, etc. so anything cutting air would be smooth. I know those yard sale 50-cent cans of spray paint have paid for itself many times over!


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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:00 pm 
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Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Quote:
What would be better exercise is a good front air dam (that won't self destruct on street debris) and rocker panel extensions to keep air out and force any turbulent vortexes formed to occur as far back on the vehicle as possible


This deserves repeating.

In fact, the underbody tray does very little on its own, and works best in conjunction with the parts listed above (front air dam and rocker panel "side skirts") and a rear diffuser. You have to be generating a low pressure zone under the car in order for that tray to really do anything but cut drag from under the car (which is not a heck of a lot, but probably useful at around the 2% range, as was previously mentioned) and in order to generate a low pressure zone, you need to a) prevent air from getting in on the front and sides, and b) help to extract the air more quickly and efficiently at the rear. You'll notice how drastically that NSX is diffused in the back (looks like nearly 6 inches or more of depth on the diffuser) and dammed in the front. Without these key bits, the diffuser is much much less effective.


Cheers!


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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:45 pm 
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Location: Atlanta GA 30052
l4mbch0ps wrote:
the underbody tray does very little on its own, and works best in conjunction with the parts listed above (front air dam and rocker panel "side skirts") and a rear diffuser.


Hard to add all that cost effectively when
During 15,000 miles the saving is $24.
:(

When I added a $5 (+1hr) plywood pan under my Twin Turbo ENGINE (only) the water temperature went down.
The car handled the same on the track. :alien:

_________________
looking for:
the time i mispent in my youth

daily driver: red 1991 Metro 3cyl 5sp, roof rack, 8 degree advance,
got 61 mpg combined on 14" tires but i prefer 12"

completed frame up restoration: black 1994 Swift GT 5sp -- like new ! 45mpg


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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:09 am 
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Posts: 173
Location: Canada
Plywood? Uncool man! Uncool!!!!! How can you rice up plywood?

Anyway, I'm going to make a front skirt out of that black garden edging stuff. It's in my friends garage. Just have to screw some holes in the bumper and mount the SOB gaining me a 2 inch drop or so, and should be really resistant to road rash.

Resistant to road rash. I like it.

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91 Pontiac Firefly.


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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:50 am 
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Location: Winnipeg, MB Canada
Would an underbody pan allow my engine to retain more of the heat it generates when it is -20C or worse here? I have blocked the radiator, changed thermostats, added a warm air intake, have a block heater, and a coolant heater, and I am still not happy with the amount of heat I get in the dead of winter. There is enough to defrost the windshield but not much else.

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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:53 am 
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Location: Winnipeg, MB Canada
I have also thought about adding pipe insulation to as much of the coolant hoses that I can but I don't know if that would make much of a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: underbody aero kit?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:27 pm 
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Location: Twin Mosquitos MN
I doubt some minor baffles will make much difference, the pressure differentials at 50 mph would still pull enough air through to keep the peripheral bits near air temperature anyhow.

Conduction, Convection and Radiation is how heat moves, in a perfect material it would be a law of thirds as to how much heat went which way. Remember heat is shed in the infra-red spectrum just like light shines from its source - I might line the engine compartment & hood with reflective aluminized high-temp insulation to bounce the infra-red back to the motor as a completely passive measure.

I was talking to my friend Janne in Finland about sub-zero and one litre motors...

His first suggestion was a bypass valve for the whole of the radiator assembly; if afraid where the coolant temperatures might end up leave provisions to add some zig zag or corkscrew turns in parallel bypass tube for those less than deathly cold days. I forget the example he cited, Russian military vehicles or something.

He also mentioned a block/transmission blanket - insulating the heater hoses - and a meticulous cleaning of the passenger compartment air ducts, fan and heater core (both outside coils & fins AND the internal passageways)

I feel for youse peeps in Winnipeg; Twin Cities Minnesota usually only gets the cold y'all have warmed up for us :)


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