TeamSwift

Home of the Suzuki mini-compacts ! Your Home for all things Suzuki Swift, Geo Metro, Holden Barina, Chevy Sprint, Pontiac Firefly, and Suzuki Cultus. TeamSwift is a technical performance oriented community!
It is currently Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:09 am

Underbody braces, turbos and more!

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Any thoughts / opinions on attempting a metro conversion like the SwiftR which the students did @ swarthmore in the link below:

http://www.engin.swarthmore.edu/org/HEV/

Is there a better axle to use than the miata?

Has anybody had any experience transplanting a rear axle into a 2001 metro?

The whole concept of leaving the transaxle / engine intact in the front and building the electric portion in the rear seems to have merit.

Any links on Metro hybrid conversions or more recent follow up articles on the swiftr would be greatly appreciated :-)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:36 pm
Posts: 493
Location: Roscommon, MI
Yeah, an electric-powered rear axle in a Metro would be great... if you're looking for more power.

Lexus has got it right. They are building hybrids to enhance the performance of their vehicles while still using smaller engines. As for using hybrid technology to save gas, the technology just isn't there yet. Hybrid motors and batteries just weigh down the car and use up valuable storage space, negating any potential fuel savings it might create.

Case-in-point: it isn't that hard to make a non-Metro hybrid get the 46 MPG that most Prius drivers get.

Edit: Ack! My brain flipped some words again. That should say "non-hybrid Metro."


Last edited by rarson on Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Good Point. The guy I work with has a prius and is getting about 49mpg according to his trip computer. How accurate it is I haven't a clew. My average for a 2001 1 liter 5 speed metro hatchback is around 45mpg with a stock motor and trans based on 110 miles per day highway driving with about 25 miles of stop and go traffic.

I'm wondering if I can get a significant boost in city mileage by designing the vehicle so that the main purpose of the electric motor is to get and keep it moving in slow stop and go congestion traffic as well as running it on electric for the short trip to the corner store. ( 0-35 miles per hour, smaller battery capacity, 30 mile range or less on battery power )

Has anybody worked with the valence line of large format battery products or have any pricing / dealer info?

http://www.valence.com/products/ucharge_overview.html

looks like a lot of good motors and controllers out there but trying to find something other than lead acid batteries in a large format seems to be a problem unless you want to build battery packs from individual cells.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:36 pm
Posts: 493
Location: Roscommon, MI
Hybrids do seem to benefit in the stop-and-go city traffic. You may still be able to bump up the mileage in that case, but I still think the electric stuff is going to weigh you down and probably hurt a little when it comes to highway mileage.

But the idea you describe, I think that's the ideal way to turn a Metro into a hybrid, just power the rear wheels. And if you're not using the extra hatch space, then you should have plenty of room for all the electronics.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 4:14 pm
Posts: 10
You could always put in a pure electric gearbox:

http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/acgearbox.shtml

The AC motor can handle the full speed range. With a DC motor, you have to have a gearshift because the speed range of the DC motors is less. It would get confusing to have to shift for both the electric motor and gas engine.

Kinda spendy though, at $1,839 for the gearbox, $2,595 for the motor, $3,495 for the controller and $1175 for the install kit (throttle, gearshift, wires mounts, etc).

Bare minimal batteries are 12 12V deep cycle batteries, better is 18 8V golf cart batteries.

They have geo metro axles for the transmission. You could use front axle knuckles modified to go on the back.

Do it, and you could have a plug in hybrid long before GM gets the volt on the road!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:36 pm
Posts: 493
Location: Roscommon, MI
I like the idea of dropping an electric motor into the Metro to get it to move a little faster. It sounds like the above company makes these motors for replacing the engine up front. I wonder how hard it would be to get some AWD rear axles and rig up the AC motor in the back of the car. Or maybe just pull the engine, replace with electric motor, and then shove it in the back like the V6 Clio.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 4:14 pm
Posts: 10
As I'm putting the transmission back together, it occurs to me that it just might be possible to add a motor to the transmission. If the stamped steel end housing was replaced with a fabricated housing, a silent chain could sprocket could be added to the side of the 5th gear on the counter shaft. The electric motor could be mounted over the transmission, and now the motor would drive the counter shaft through a chain like the ones used in front wheel drive automatic cars.

The desired ratio between the AC motor in the link above is between 10:1 and 12:1. With a 4.3:1 final drive, that would mean that the chain would have to have about 2.7:1, and I think that's in the range of common sprockets.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Knowing that the metro gets good mileage to begin with is it a realistic goal to try to turn it into a hybrid? The goal is to get the best mileage possible, the thought being that a small "kicker motor" could be used to get the car up to speed before the engine started. Depending upon highway vs stop and go traffic, carrying the extra weight may be a bad idea. I haven't sat down to do the math on energy requirements for battery storage vs range but I'm sure that adding 500 lbs to get a small boosting system with only a few miles of range is realistic which does not include the weight of a a rear axle transplant. The chain idea sounds interesting. Given the metros mileage capability you probably need to make the choice of either running it totally on fuel or dumping the engine and converting it to all electric.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 11:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 10:57 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Sacramento
I did something similiar to a '96 Aspire, adding an electric motor to the rear wheel.
The idea was to have both, run electric, but have engine for longer trips.

http://nimblemotorsports.com/NiMHybridCVT.jpg

Started with a chain drive, it was noisy as hell, and 4:1 gearing was not enough.

http://nimblemotorsports.com/drivenwheel.jpg

So I put in the belt 4:1 - 1:1 CVT with a 3:1 gear built from a FWD final gear differental,
so it went from 12:1 to 3:1. this worked well.
It was just a prototype, I removed the motor and parts and sold the car.
my motor controller was also a prototype.

I think a better hybrid approach is that like the Honda Insight or Prius, still use the gas motor, but use a really small one,
and electric assist. They can get very high MPG this way. This is my current MGeo project approach.

Jack


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 3:21 am 
Offline
Teamswift Racer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:56 am
Posts: 2329
Location: Christchurch NZ, quake capital
Very interesting, I have been looking at Electric rwd assist but for non fuel economic reasons (sorry :)

Current motorsport rules make no mention of hybrids, classes are always based on petrol engine CC, my thoughts are to run a GSXR 750 engine and 6spd box up front with rwd electric assist for doing hillclimbs and sprints, the bike engine just doesn't have enough torque for the start and for tight corners, also rules dictate you must be able to reverse the car up, instead of adding reverse gear to the bike engine and box it should be simple enough to get the rear motor to spin in the other direction.

Rear suspension arms from 4wd swift sedans are reasonably easy to get along with driveshafts and diff.
How big a motor is required 20-30kw? I only need 1 speed, ie full boost, probably a steering wheel button.
I'm scared to think what sort of current draw would occur, anyone know of a simple current controller that would suffice?
Since my runs are only 2 mins long and I would only do 4 or 5 runs and a twenty min break in between to recharge, I was thinking 10 x 12v 18ah batteries might do the job... ideas?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 5:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:05 am
Posts: 9
Location: New Zealand
Replace the V/C with a golf cart motor.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:30 am 
Offline
Teamswift Racer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:56 am
Posts: 2329
Location: Christchurch NZ, quake capital
So no body has any thoughts on this? I have been reading up on Citroen's C4 WRC HyMotion4, it has a 125kw motor driving the rear wheels adding an extra 300nm of torque :shock:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:05 am
Posts: 9
Location: New Zealand
Are you wanting 2wd or 4wd? D and D electric motor systems sell a variety of electric motors from uprated golfcart motors to electric motors and controllers suited to automotive repowers.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:16 am 
Offline
Teamswift Racer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:56 am
Posts: 2329
Location: Christchurch NZ, quake capital
As I stated in my first post, motorbike engine driving the front wheels and electric motor driving the rear wheels.

AZD make a good unit (AC24), 38kg motor delivers 79nm from pretty much zero to 4000rpm, perfect for launches, exiting hairpins and tight corners and will spin upto 11000rpm

Just punched in some data into the quaife gearing calculator, using a 5.1 ratio diff and direct drive with 185/60/13 tyres

I get 20.402 KPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 224.421 KPH at 11000 RPM :shock:

The point is the power delivery of the electric motor is the complete opposite of a bike engine and the two together would be complimentary, electric assist at low speed providing extra traction, once the road speed is high enough the electric motor isn't required and the bike engine would be 'on song'...


Attachments:
Image2.jpg
Image2.jpg [ 35.24 KIB | Viewed 5287 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:18 pm
Posts: 110
Location: Levittown PA USA
Guys - ok Newton's laws.

An object in motion will remain in motion until acted upon by an external force.

this means once the object is MOVING it takes NO ENERGY INPUT to keep it moving unless an external force acts upon the car.

MASS is largely not relevant to an already moving car.

I have a 94 xfi. I regularly put 4 people in the car massing 1000 pounds and my gear AND a trailer and it has almost ZERO impact on my fuel economy (mostly highway driving very little stop and go) 1 or 2mpg TOPS if I add some stop and go.

why? because the only time "mass" hurts your fuel economy* is when you have to accelerate (IE change in velocity)

* if you overload the vehicle or changes it aero or surface drag qualities with so much weight or simply go beyond what the engine can handle then off course you will start to effect MPG at highway speed. IE can't put a 3cyl in a 2 ton van and expect to get 50mpg :-)

Thats why for highway drivers you want the tallest tires you can get. although its heavier with higher mass higher drag and higher rolling resistance and rotational mass the effective increase in gearing more than makes up for it (again to a point)

but for CITY driving you really want the original 12" wheels and tires. you also want to be as light as possible since almost ALL of your driving will be UNDER acceleration so extra mass will murder you FE.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group