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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:41 pm 
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Location: SC
First off I really love this forum its great. I have a 96 Geo Metro 5 speed 1.0 with 157k miles My mpgs have dropped to 30 to 35 and I do not have a lot of power(not that I ever did) also idles low when I have the ac on and acts like it wants to cut off I did a compression and here are the results (if I did correctly)
1. 180 dry and wet
2. 140 dry and wet
3 130 dry and wet
Their may have been a little difference in the wet and dry but not much. Is this a good range and if not what could I check. Thanks so much for the help I really love this car and want to get back to the 45+mpg


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:19 pm 
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your numbers are looking a little low. i am no where a master on the forum, but my #'s were
192 90 214. and i am half way threw rebuilding the top end. about $250 to do so. hang around and you will get the answers you need.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:26 am 
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I should also mention that I had to clean the Egr valve and that the other code I am getting ins the crankshaft position sensor. Been trying to find out what normal compression should be but not much luck. I feel like I need to do the top end at least thats what I hope is the worst case.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:38 am 
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jwkwak3 wrote:
First off I really love this forum its great. I have a 96 Geo Metro 5 speed 1.0 with 157k miles My mpgs have dropped to 30 to 35 and I do not have a lot of power(not that I ever did) also idles low when I have the ac on and acts like it wants to cut off I did a compression and here are the results (if I did correctly)
1. 180 dry and wet
2. 140 dry and wet
3 130 dry and wet
Their may have been a little difference in the wet and dry but not much. Is this a good range and if not what could I check. Thanks so much for the help I really love this car and want to get back to the 45+mpg


Smart money on just a head gasket.

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Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:41 pm 
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Another question I have is the timing is suppose to be at 5 degrees btdc. This may sound stupid but I had to reset the timing after replacing the front seals. I lined the crank and cam shaft up and did nothing else is this correct and if not how do correct (do not have a timing light). Should I have lined up the pulleys and then rotated the crank back to 5 degrees ?

Thanks


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:02 pm 
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For that you get smacked with the search word.
Yep, you need a timing light, and need to hook up a jumper wire.
It's really easy, you do it once.
And, you should change your distributor O-ring if you are going to mess with the timing, as you probably now have an oil leak at the distributor, right?

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Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:12 pm 
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O Ring at the distributor has been changed. It was leaking there so I changed it and so no leaks from there


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:13 pm 
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O Ring at the distributor has been changed. It was leaking there so I changed it and so no leaks from there


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:41 pm 
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They are sensitive.
If you change your timing, keep an eye on it for leaks.

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Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:14 am 
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Factory spec is 200#, 155# "minimum allowable" according to the FSM. You have textbook numbers for burned valves which are expected at that mileage. With no change between wet and dry, you may be able to get away with valves only, best solution would be rings too.

You're getting two different timings confused. The valve timing is controlled by the alignment of the timing marks where the timing belt is installed. That's what you had to do when you replaced the seals. It's either right or it's wrong, off by one tooth will make a big difference in performance, you would have noticed. The 5 degree before thingy is ignition timing which is adjusted by turning the distributor and measured by shorting the diagnostic connector and using a timing light. The 5 degree setting is a maladjustment from where the engine would actually like to be in order to reduce NOx emissions. This is a major contributor to burned exhaust valves. Verify that it's at or near 5 degrees before TDC, then mark that spot by scratching a line across where the two halves of the distributor drive meet. Advance it to ten degrees and enjoy better power, mileage, and exhaust valve life until you need to have your emissions checked. Then swing it back to the original spot to satisfy the air nazis.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:54 am 
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I am and always been leary of fooling with timeing so I will prob. get a buddy that experience help me resolve this issue. I head on another form about dropping your pistion and then installing a the valves that way anyone did this before and is this a good practice.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:59 pm 
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Woodie wrote:
Factory spec is 200#, 155# "minimum allowable" according to the FSM. You have textbook numbers for burned valves which are expected at that mileage. With no change between wet and dry, you may be able to get away with valves only, best solution would be rings too.

You're getting two different timings confused. The valve timing is controlled by the alignment of the timing marks where the timing belt is installed. That's what you had to do when you replaced the seals. It's either right or it's wrong, off by one tooth will make a big difference in performance, you would have noticed. The 5 degree before thingy is ignition timing which is adjusted by turning the distributor and measured by shorting the diagnostic connector and using a timing light. The 5 degree setting is a maladjustment from where the engine would actually like to be in order to reduce NOx emissions. This is a major contributor to burned exhaust valves. Verify that it's at or near 5 degrees before TDC, then mark that spot by scratching a line across where the two halves of the distributor drive meet. Advance it to ten degrees and enjoy better power, mileage, and exhaust valve life until you need to have your emissions checked. Then swing it back to the original spot to satisfy the air nazis.


Woodie has a good point, it could be bad exhaust valves.
I ignored the two low readings, and went with the one good reading.
Then, I considered a head gasket which had failed between the other two cylinders.
So that's why I made the 'head gasket' call.

Normally, it would just be 1 valve which burns, so that's why, with two adjacent cylinders giving lower than usual readings, I chose 'head gasket'.

Once you pull the head, it's a good idea to replace all the exhaust valves and guides, but kindly let us know which it was.

I would go with one burned exhaust valve eating the head gasket between the two cylinders, but post a picture of your specific carnage.

Again, Woodie is usually right on, so let's consider this a 'gentlemen's bet'.

:D

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DIY Broken Bolt Removal: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=41042
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DIY Shocks: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=45483
DIY Wheel Align: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42479
Once you get the cars dialed-in (compression, leaks, bearings, alignment, brakes) swap in new rubber and glass, you've got something which should last for years!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:16 pm 
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Woodie wrote:
. Then swing it back to the original spot to satisfy the air nazis.

That right there is funnnyyy. Air nazis. Ha Ha :lol:

On the valve guides can those be replaced with out taking to shop? I hate paying those guys. They leave it sit for a week, work on it for a hour,and then own you for a month.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:30 am 
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Could very well be a head gasket, especially with two adjacent cylinders bad. Regardless, if you have to take the head off for any reason, put in new SS exhaust valves. The exhaust valves are the weakest part of the whole car, unless they've got less than 30K miles, go ahead and spend the $50. Valve guides rarely need to be replaced, cam sits directly on top, there's no side load at all.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:54 am 
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Will post pics so everyone can see. Where do I get the SS valves ? I have got to get the time to do this since I do use the car daily. Guess gonna have bite the bullet and take some time off work to fix. What is this I keep hearing about lapping the valves. I am kinda new to getting into fixing the internal parts of the engine so please forgive the questions.

Thanks


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:58 am 
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pm superf1y for valves, I just got mine

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:35 am 
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I have a '96 and just did a compression test as well... 210, 200, 210 are my readings. The car has 86k miles on the clock, has been averaging 45mpg over 3,000 commute miles. The old rule of thimb is all cylinders should be within 10% of each other. The thinking here is any engine will age and wear, the rings and cylinders get a little more blow-by with every miles driven (less if the owner changes it's oil regularly) Valve seem to fail less evenly. Typically one gets a little warped, and goes down hill pretty quickly. A cylinder leak-down test is awesome! You need the $80 tool and access to an air compressor, but it will tell you head gasket, valves, or rings if performed properly. (Tavia and others make them, sold by Jeg's, Summit, etc)

If I were in your situation, and the valves are in fact leaking, I would take one of three courses of action:

1) bring it into a good shop, ask them if it needs a valve job, and have them do it. Pay the man, get a warrenty, get on with my life without the grease under my findgernails, at least this time.

2) DIY buy a remanufactured head from reputable source, timing belt, water pump, head bolts and head gasket fit, and tackle the job myself (Mullet Johnny on ecomodder.com has some good pictures and great write up on this exact job on his late model metro). Maybe spent some of that labor cost I just saved on an XFi cam, hmmmm...

3) DIY feeling lucky; Pull the head and inspect for seat damage, warped valves, guide wear. Take it to your local automotive machine shop and have them give an opinion. If needed, have them kiss the seats and grind the valves, or seats and install new exhaust valves if needed. Hot tank and resurface the head flat while they are at it. DIY new belt, pump, bolts, gasket. You might get away with just a quick valve lap on your workbench if you are really pinching pennys, just know if you go the 'low budget route' it might not be the last time you have the head off this year (read: a quickie lap job might not fix the problem, won't address worm guides or non-flat sealing surface). Lapping valves is somewhat of an art, to do it right, you need someone to show you how to look for the annular gray sealing area and 360 degree valve seating.

my 2 cents


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:10 pm 
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I am thinking of taking it to the Japanesse Auto Clinic I hear they are great.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:33 pm 
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Im wondering about the head bolts, I hear you are supposed to replace them each time you pull the head, but the head was off 15000km ago, and im pulling it again for lower compression and ss valves. So im going to have the head resurfaced aswell, already have a new headgasket, but im planning on reusing the head bolts. I only torqued them to stock spec once, so when I pull them off and I torque them again am I going to break one, not have anything go wrong, or have a blown headgasket sooner than later?

I really dont wanna drop the cash for bolts again, but as for the OP's problem, you should buy new bolts aswell, who knows how long theyve been in there (last head gasket change maybe) or if theyve been re-used.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:42 am 
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swift13b wrote:
...I hear you are supposed to replace them each time you pull the head... so when I pull them off and I torque them again am I going to break one, not have anything go wrong, or have a blown headgasket sooner than later?...


The head bolt thing has been debated alot... here's the idea, then you be the judge.

Fasteners in critcal applications, where clamping force is key to success (head and rod bolts for instance) are usually recommended to be replaced by the guys who designed the engine. The thing is, you tighten those fasteners well past normal SAE recommended torque values (for a given diameter and bolt strength). In fact, those critical fasteners get torques almost to their elastic limit, where clamping force is greatest. A little too tight, and they permanently stretch. Tighten them several times into the elastic zone, and the steel work hardens and becomes brittle. I've re-used rod and head bolts and studs, I also have one (ruined) $17 Carrillo rod bolt sittting on my desk to remind me about the dangers over torqueing. Following the factory recommendations in terms of torque (good torque wrench) torque value for a particular thread and under bolt head lube is very important.

If it were me, I wouldn't chance it. I'd pony-up and just replace the bolts with new ones. Reason being is head gasket sealing is key, your car is nothing but a chicken coup without a sealed cylinder head... if a couple bolts overstretch and loosen, the gasket fails and THAT would ruin my week. I hate doing any job twice, it's a pride thing and a cost thing (tow the car home $, new head gasket (again)and bolts, maybe a head resurface (again) $$) it's a risk versus cost asessment problem.

Could you get away with re-using the bolts you recently installed that have seen torque, heat cycling, and some stretch? Probably. I don't think you'll snap one off when you torque the head using the old ones. good luck!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:08 pm 
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exactly what I was thinking

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:07 am 
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metromizer wrote:
Could you get away with re-using the bolts you recently installed that have seen torque, heat cycling, and some stretch? Probably. I don't think you'll snap one off when you torque the head using the old ones. good luck!
Go buy ARP Headbolts. That's what drag racer's use. ARP are RE-USABLE.


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