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 Post subject: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:23 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Bella Vista, Arkansas USA
Went up to the local walley world a couple of months ago for some brand new tires Douglas Extra Trak ll P155/80R13(45 psi) on the '96 1l 5spd. Before the tires I was getting between 44 and 46 mpg. Now I'm getting about 33mpg.

Since then I have cut the cat. out,
replaced the plugs and wires.
Switched to Valvoline high mileage synthetic oil 5w-30,
Put an air dam in the guppy mouth,
Did the SEAFOAM through the TB and gas tank.
Replaced driverside CV axle.
Replaced the pcv valve.
Did a compression check and had 180+ across on a dry test and 195+ across on a wet test.

It was throwing codes P0301 and P0340.
Changing the wires and plugs helped the P0301.

Just seems to me that this motor is eating gas at a prodigious rate and I can't figure it out. Can anyone give me some other areas I might have missed?

Thanks
terry

Anyone have any other ideas I might have missed?

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'96 1.0 5spd 2dr hatchback
'92 1.0 auto 2dr hatchback
'91 1.0 5spd 4dr hatchback


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:14 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 4:03 pm
Posts: 77
Location: Vernonia, Oregon
Did you change from 12 inch to 13 inch tires or did you already have 13 inchers?

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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:23 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:23 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Bella Vista, Arkansas USA
I replaced 13" with 13".

Went and bought a new o2 sensor tonight. Will find out in a few days if it helps.

I read some where on the site that someone replaced his o2 sensor and it made a significant difference in mpg. My car has 175,000 miles on it and I have never changed the o2 sensor. I think it is time for a change.

Any one else have any ideas?

terry

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'96 1.0 5spd 2dr hatchback
'92 1.0 auto 2dr hatchback
'91 1.0 5spd 4dr hatchback


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:08 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 11:26 pm
Posts: 70
Location: Port Orchard, Washington USA
175,000 miles.....

Time for a compression check.

Take a close look at the plugs while they are out.

Tire pressure about 40 psi I assume?

Did you test the old and new O2 sensors with a multi meter and propane torch?

TH


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:15 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:23 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Bella Vista, Arkansas USA
After six months and a lot of searching on this site, I think my problem may have been a clogged EGR passage. I took off my exhaust manifold to clean the EGR passage which snakes through the head. Found a lot of carbon build up but compressed air was still able to flow through the passageway. Also, I cleaned out the passageway which goes through the intake manifold. I took an aerosol cannister of B-12 chemical cleaner. The passageway is the right side hole that the EGR valve sits on.. I sprayed the B-12 into the hole and a lot of carbon bits flowed out of the hole. I ran a copper wire into the hole to try and drag out any loose carbon deposits. I extracted a lot of carbon and just kept spraying B-12 into the passageway trying to loosen up chunks of flaking deposits. Eventually I noticed that no B-12 was coming out of the hole. This reflects that the passageway had been cleared. The B-12 was now pooling in the combustion chamber. Which ever piston is at "BOTTOM dead center" will collect the B-12. In my engine it was piston no. 3.

Here is a few things which might come in handy.

1. Cover your battery with a cloth towel or other similar material..My engine caught fire when the copper wire I was using to clear the passageways contacted the positive terminal and made a circuit with the intake manifold. B-12 + spark = FIRE !!!!

2. Disconnect the coil wire so the B-12 cannister can fit better into the engine bay while shooting chemical into the rightside EGR passageway.

3. Remove your spark plugs to determine which cylinder the B-12 is flowing into.

4. Manually turn your crankshaft in order to push the B-12 out of the cylinder. Just remember when it hits TDC the chemical will gush out of the spark plug hole. Put a rag over the hole.

5. Use q-tips to try and get the last remaining puddles of B-12 out of the combustion chamber.

Good luck

terry

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'96 1.0 5spd 2dr hatchback
'92 1.0 auto 2dr hatchback
'91 1.0 5spd 4dr hatchback


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:15 pm
Posts: 346
Location: Delmar NY
let me know how your fuel milage is affected.


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:40 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:15 pm
Posts: 346
Location: Delmar NY
Did you test the old and new O2 sensors with a multi meter and propane torch?

how do you do that???


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:23 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Bella Vista, Arkansas USA
I only replaced the exhaust mani O2 sensor with a Bosch 4-wire sensor. The other sensor is not there any more. I cut the cat. off and ran a straight pipe. As for gas mileage, I've only put about 70 miles on it today. Can't really tell if the mpg's have increased but I think they have. Will keep you posted when I fill up in two or three days.

terry

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'96 1.0 5spd 2dr hatchback
'92 1.0 auto 2dr hatchback
'91 1.0 5spd 4dr hatchback


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:15 pm
Posts: 346
Location: Delmar NY
put any miles on yet?

cause i just had the same prob. when i got my car i was getting 50 + or -

now im at like 33


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:15 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:15 pm
Posts: 346
Location: Delmar NY
BUMP


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:36 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:49 am
Posts: 25
Location: hudson, wyo
a vacuum leak can cause your fuel pressure regulator to back up way to much pressure at the injector. check all vac lines, etc. also check intake to see if there is a leak there. the old trick of spraying ether or propane around the seem works well. if there is a leak, revs will raise. a loss of compression will give you a double wammy too, no power (need more throttle) and a drop in vacuum. a sticking, leaking, or drooling injector can be trouble too. keep us posted.


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:54 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:15 pm
Posts: 346
Location: Delmar NY
god i wish someone around here new their shit about geos


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:37 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:10 am
Posts: 22
Location: the holy city of hopewell junction
SPROCKIT wrote:
god i wish someone around here new their shit about geos


ok -
it is winter in delmar ny ....
there is a lot of info on ecomodder and teamswift and geo metro forum regarding cold weather modifications to help with cold weather fuel economy
do a little digging - what you seek is already there


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:53 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:02 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Orlando
check your tailpipe run your finger around the inside of it. is it sooty black? or clean?
black indicates too much gas going into the motor; more than necessary and unburnt fuel out the tailpipe.

leaky worn injectors are another culprit if equipped with multiport fuel injection.

TBI just has a single point of injection; like a carb. check the air filter, check the entire intake pipe for obstructions ( no kinds or bends or dead animals living in there)

the computer could be off by running the car in "closed loop" (or was that open), when the sensors go bad - and the computer module goes into default mode - which always sucks gas.
theory is its better to have a car running badly than no car running at all, if the sensors go bad.

Check the engine error codes. Oxygen sensor in the tailpipe could be sending wrong or bad signals to the ECU module.

Pull out a spark plug - what color is the tip? Back sootish? too much gas. Light brown - perfect.

Obstruction in the exhaust system? Cat converter clogged or melted? Sticking a potato in the tailpipe is enough to cause the motor to stall out or run very rough and badly - so any obstruction has to be removed.

I think I covered just about all the obvious things to look for. Others would be tire inflation, alignment, too many fat girls in the car at the same time, etc.

dayle1960 wrote:
Went up to the local walley world a couple of months ago for some brand new tires Douglas Extra Trak ll P155/80R13(45 psi) on the '96 1l 5spd. Before the tires I was getting between 44 and 46 mpg. Now I'm getting about 33mpg.

Since then I have cut the cat. out,
replaced the plugs and wires.
Switched to Valvoline high mileage synthetic oil 5w-30,
Put an air dam in the guppy mouth,
Did the SEAFOAM through the TB and gas tank.
Replaced driverside CV axle.
Replaced the pcv valve.
Did a compression check and had 180+ across on a dry test and 195+ across on a wet test.

It was throwing codes P0301 and P0340.
Changing the wires and plugs helped the P0301.

Just seems to me that this motor is eating gas at a prodigious rate and I can't figure it out. Can anyone give me some other areas I might have missed?

Thanks
terry

Anyone have any other ideas I might have missed?


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:58 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:23 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Bella Vista, Arkansas USA
Well its been a while since I have relayed any info on my situation. A couple of months ago I started getting code p0301 again. did a compression test. well, cyl 1 and 2 are dead. So I have ordered valves from partsdinosaur and they should be in for the weekend. I filled up with gas tonight and the good news is that I got 40 mpg on my last tank of gas. Maybe with a rebuilt head I can get better mpg. I still think there is something wrong with the amount of gas being used. I just cant figure out what the problem could be. since the original posting these are the things I have replaced.

New plugs
new plug wires
new coolant temp sensor
new front wheel bearing
new front and rear brakes
rebuilt brake calipers
added a vacuum gauge and drive like Ms. Daisy.


Does any one know how I can check the throttle body injector to see if it is pumping the correct amount of fuel into the intake manifold?

thanks

terry

_________________
'96 1.0 5spd 2dr hatchback
'92 1.0 auto 2dr hatchback
'91 1.0 5spd 4dr hatchback


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:36 pm
Posts: 64
Location: Riverside, CA
If you're running in open loop, with the ecu delivering more fuel because it thinks the engine is cold, you generally see a continuous high idle. That happened with me until I chased down some bad sensors. If the ecu is is delivering too much fuel in closed loop, you should eventually see carbon build up on your O2 sensor and plugs. An emissions test will also tell you if your exhaust is high in unburned hydrocarbons, unburned fuel, which could indicate either a bad ignition or too much fuel. Hope this helps.

I've been battling poor gas mileage for over a year. I'm at the point where I'm going to take it to a garage I trust for a thorough "diagnostics" and call it case-closed if they don't find anything wrong. See my post if you're interested: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=46380

Brian

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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:26 pm
Posts: 342
Location: TX-USA
That size tire is not stock on that car, I don't know if you replaced with the exact same tire or a different one. With the size tire you have on there now, my vert's speedo was off by 10% make sure you're using GPS for mileage and not odometer until you confirm its reading true. I get 10% higher mpg than the odo reads, it makes a big difference, be sure to confirm how far you're traveling.

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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:09 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 6:23 am
Posts: 1745
Location: Washington, DC
Those tires are exactly the right size for the car, assuming that Douglass didn't make them way out of spec.

dayle1960 wrote:
I only replaced the exhaust mani O2 sensor with a Bosch 4-wire sensor. The other sensor is not there any more. I cut the cat. off and ran a straight pipe.


All bets are off if you're running with no rear sensor. PCM is operating with a constant error code, might not even be in feedback mode.

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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:23 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Bella Vista, Arkansas USA
funny thing about the rear sensor, Woodie, Johnny Mullett says he cut his cat. off and hung the O2 sensor inside the engine bay. His mileage has not been affected. Maybe it causes some sort of weird feedback with MY ecm. I don't know.

This past week end I replaced all the valves. It sure has a lot of get up and go now. The #1 exhaust valve was burned pretty badly. Had some black flakely build up on #1 piston. Must be blow by gasses being burned and not exhaused.

Unfortunately, looks like the gas mileage still sucks. I have driven about 75 miles on a half tank of gas. But the gas gauge doesn't work properly. Before I replaced the valves I could drive about 100 miles on half a tank of gas.

I'll keep updating so someone can come up with an answer on my terrible MPG.
I also timed the engine to 5*BTDC.

thanks

terry

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'96 1.0 5spd 2dr hatchback
'92 1.0 auto 2dr hatchback
'91 1.0 5spd 4dr hatchback


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:23 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Bella Vista, Arkansas USA
Last weekend I replaced all of the valves in the head. #1 exhaust valve was cracked and worn on an edge. It looked pretty bad. New valve sleeves, ground all of the valves, lots of new gaskets, etc..... So my previous gasoline fillup netted 36 MPG. Tonight I checked the fuel mileage and got a respectable 41.89 MPG. Still not where I think it should be (46-48).

Anyone got suggestion where I should go from here?

I've done:
New valves
New front wheel bearings
Catalytic converter removed
Rebuilt front calipers and rear brake job
Installed tachometer and drive with a light foot
New front O2 sensor
New water pump on previous rebuild
New Douglas tires with 47 psi

What do you all think I might have missed...

thanks

terry

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'96 1.0 5spd 2dr hatchback
'92 1.0 auto 2dr hatchback
'91 1.0 5spd 4dr hatchback


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:45 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:35 pm
Posts: 2433
Location: Regina, SK
Chopping out the Cat is just plain old silly. In the exhaust system on these cars, it's one of the least restrictive parts. The Resonator and muffler both are far more restrictive. I run a high flow 2" Cat to a 2" x 4" x 14" resonator and 2" x 6" x 14" muffler, all magnaflow so it's not some wankery sounding rice exhaust.

I'll say it now...

Baffles = Rice ;)

Straight pipes or single rice can exhaust = painful to drive any real distance, and all your doing with such an exhaust is screaming I have a small penis and I have confidence issues, so look at me! :lol:

Anyways...

Putting on a high flow cat is probably your best bet. I did the external mount secondary O2 sensor, it worked most of the time, but when there was fog, when it was cold, the computer would complain and the fuel economy would go down.

After new rings and a head rebuild, you won't get your best Fuel Economy for a few thousand miles due to the engine breaking in. Also do allow the car's computer time to adjust and learn the new motor, the three bangers have a set auto-learn program, just disconnect the battery for a few minutes, hook it back up, and let it idle, you'll hear the idle bounce all over hell's half acre, once you hear the idle go steady for a few minutes, get in and drive. Before you do this though, make sure you have your timing properly set, whatever it was before probably wasn't right, this means jumpering the connector behind the glove box and breaking out the timing light.

I'd also highly reccomend backing your tire psi off to something more sane, running 47psi in tires is just asking for problems. 35-40psi would be the safe max as once your tires heat up from driving the pressure increases decently, 30psi cold is about 35-40 psi hot for example. You aren't gaining anything by running such high pressure, you are just sacrificing tire life, and the safety of you and others in all driving conditions.

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J. McBean: '98 Suzuki Swift 1.3L 16v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk5" Made in Canada
The Mini Rattler: '94 Suzuki Swift .993L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk3" Made in Canada *The Winter Beater*
B. Berry: '90 Chevrolet Turbo Sprint 1.0L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk2" Made in Japan

I got 18MPG in a 3cyl with a 5 speed manual 4dr, '93 Metro! :yeahyeah


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:18 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:49 pm
Posts: 95
Location: Alabama
If the max is >47 PSI he's fine running that.


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:30 pm
Posts: 93
Location: Oshawa, Ontario
Quote:
screaming I have a small penis and I have confidence issues, so look at me!


+1


:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:23 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Bella Vista, Arkansas USA
The first tank of gas after my valve job, my metro got 41.89 MPG. Pretty good jump! Second tank of gas got 35 mpg. :huh: Still trying to find the gremlins that are taking away my mpg's. This weekend I will take off the TBI and see if the carbon build up within the intake manifold passages has clogged up the ports. Maybe this will help.

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'92 1.0 auto 2dr hatchback
'91 1.0 5spd 4dr hatchback


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 Post subject: Re: From 46mpg to 33mpg
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:23 pm
Posts: 128
Location: Bella Vista, Arkansas USA
Well I found that the EFE Heater under the TBI was totally plugged. Since cleaning that out I got 44 and 45 MPG's on two different tanks of gas. The engine does not strain as hard. Somehow the EGR sensor noticed the EFE heater passageways were clogged and made the ECU pump more gas into the TBI to compensate for restriction. Also I believe the EFE heater is only on 96+ metros.

terry

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'92 1.0 auto 2dr hatchback
'91 1.0 5spd 4dr hatchback


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