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 Post subject: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:42 pm 
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Hi guys, I'm having problem with a newly acquired car that's a real head scratcher to me.
I bought a project car (1993 Gti) a few weeks ago that I'll be fixing for my little brother until he's old enough to drive. Everything was a mess, specially with the wiring.
Anyway I finally got the engine started but it's running really bad. I narrowed it down to a timing issue, but I can't figure it out by myself. The distributor has to be fully advanced, otherwise the engine stalls.
Here is the weird part:
When the "I" on the intake camshaft pulley is aligned with the mark on the head, I can see the lobes of the intake valves of piston No.1 (through the oil-fill hole on the valve cover) pointing downwards. This is clearly not good, as it would hit the piston at TDC. If the "E" on the cam pulley is aligned instead, the lobes point towards the intake manifold. In my DD, which is also a 1993 Gti, the lobes point towards the intake manifold when the "I" is on the mark.
So for the intake camshaft of new engine to be at the proper position at TDC, I have to use the "E" instead of the "I". Anyone ever heard of this before???
At the moment, both intake and exhaust cam pulleys are aligned with the timing marks using the "E". This is how the previous owner had it, but he did an overhaul on this engine and apparently couldn't start it due to a bad wiring work, so I can't assume that the engine was running like this.
I don't dare to touch the pulleys, until I know what's going on, as I'm assuming that the letters on the exhaust side don't match either.
I compared the pulleys with my spares and the only difference I can see is that the I doesn't have a dot next to it and it's not centered, but that's it. So even if I would replace the pulleys, I guess it would be the same outcome. So I'm thinking maybe mk2/mk3 camshafts are different somehow?
I don't know, hope you guys can help.

Here's a picture of what I'm dealing with.


Attachments:
IMG-20141018-00330.jpg
IMG-20141018-00330.jpg [ 679.77 KIB | Viewed 2739 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:11 pm 
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Location: Brantford, Ontario, Canada
Pop the valve cover off
Take timing belt off and start from scratch
The I and E go on the pins in the cams
The cam gears have little notches out at the top that line up to the marks on the valve cover

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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:09 pm 
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crnolic wrote:
Pop the valve cover off
Take timing belt off and start from scratch
The I and E go on the pins in the cams
The cam gears have little notches out at the top that line up to the marks on the valve cover

That's the problem. There are two notches on the gears... one at the "I" and the other at the "E". But if I align the intake cam gear using the notch at the "I", the cam lobes are pointing downwards = valves open. Don't know why...

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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:22 pm 
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did you check this out .?
.
http://www.teamswift.net/Lihtan/tech/Su ... _guide.pdf
.
the knotches on the intake should be at 1pm &5pm
and on exhaust there 9pm & 5pm
.
if you think this car has had some abuse
might be the crankshaft "Keyway" is wiped out that would case t to run but not very well...jv&s
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Image
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Image
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here is the lobs TDC before belt is on
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Image
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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:00 am 
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Thanks for that info JV&S, it's everything needed to properly set the timing on these engines. However there is something weird with my cams or gears. I did do my homework before starting this thread, but something just doesn't add up.
On your last two pictures I can see the intake cam lobes on cylinder No.1 pointing towards the intake manifold when the gears notch at "I" is aligned with TDC... agree?
Now, in my engine the lobes are in the same position when the E-notch is at TDC, instead of the I-notch :huh: :huh: :huh: . Here is a video a made... I figured that with something like this I better make a video, otherwise people won't believe me :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GLJG_II0WI

My phone is a little out of focus in close-up when filming, so here is a picture of the INTAKE cam gear shown on the video, so you can see the letters better.
Attachment:
IMG-20141028-00338.jpg
IMG-20141028-00338.jpg [ 652.03 KIB | Viewed 2706 times ]


If I align the I-notch with TDC, just like you did and the manual says one should do as well, then the lobes are pointing DOWN instead of to the side. I'm afraid to do this cuz I can't afford a valve job right now.

Am I missing something here?

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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:18 am 
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you have I and E at centre and at outer side..
as you know I is intake and E is exhaust..
so, you need to set intake cam at centre on I (pulley - cam) and then align outer I to be at "tdc"
same for exhaust cam where you set centre E and then align outer E..

from your picture it look like your intake cam is set to E at centre mark..

as others already told you.. set crankshaft to mark, then put cams out, remove pulleys and start from there..


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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:31 am 
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lukak wrote:
you have I and E at centre and at outer side..
as you know I is intake and E is exhaust..
so, you need to set intake cam at centre on I (pulley - cam) and then align outer I to be at "tdc"
same for exhaust cam where you set centre E and then align outer E..

from your picture it look like your intake cam is set to E at centre mark..

Sir, please read my previous posts. The intake cam gear should be aligned with TDC using the I-notch, I know that. But if I do so, the cam lobes are not in the position they should be. Get it?
Right now the intake camshaft is aligned using the E-notch instead, which apparently sets the cam where it should be. The big question is WHY? that's the purpose of this thread.

lukak wrote:
as others already told you.. set crankshaft to mark, then put cams out, remove pulleys and start from there..


Now, why would I put the cams out? I'm only setting the timing. I can see the cam lobes though the oil fill hole just fine, that's how i can tell that something is wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:36 am 
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lukak wrote:
you have I and E at centre and at outer side..
as you know I is intake and E is exhaust..
so, you need to set intake cam at centre on I (pulley - cam) and then align outer I to be at "tdc"
same for exhaust cam where you set centre E and then align outer E..

from your picture it look like your intake cam is set to E at centre mark..

as others already told you.. set crankshaft to mark, then put cams out, remove pulleys and start from there..

.
lukak has it the cam looks right were the lob pointing to the intake but the cam gear marks are wrong..
look again at my pic's look at the knotches were the cam meets the gear your are way off
.
.
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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:49 am 
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jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
lukak wrote:
you have I and E at centre and at outer side..
as you know I is intake and E is exhaust..
so, you need to set intake cam at centre on I (pulley - cam) and then align outer I to be at "tdc"
same for exhaust cam where you set centre E and then align outer E..

from your picture it look like your intake cam is set to E at centre mark..

as others already told you.. set crankshaft to mark, then put cams out, remove pulleys and start from there..

.
lukak has it the cam looks right were the lob pointing to the intake but the cam gear marks are wrong..
look again at my pic's look at the knotches were the cam meets the gear your are way off
.
.
Image

I know, but if I put the I-notch at TDC the cam lobes face down. On your pic the cam lobes are clearly facing towards the intake manifold. That's the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:03 am 
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pull that gear off the cam.... then set the cam so the pin is @ 6PM (bottom)
look to see were the intake valve is.!
should be correct.....
then try to put gear on with the "I" on top....jv&s


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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:11 am 
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jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
pull that gear off the cam.... then set the cam so the pin is @ 6PM (bottom)
look to see were the intake valve is.!
should be correct.....
then try to put gear on with the "I" on top....jv&s

I tried that this morning but the bolt is too tight. I sprayed some penetrating oil on it... we'll see tomorrow then. Thanks :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:16 am 
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here's another GT
the (Yellow) mark should be lined up
Yours mark is ( Orange)
pull the gear and make sure the pin in the cam (blue arrows) is on the bottom
then reinstall the gear with (yellow mark as the timing mark ........jv&s
.
.
Image
.
.
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When you take the gear off the CAM and when you put
(the pin on the bottom) and the #1 lob is not pointing at 9PM
(toward the intake manifold)
then some one did a switch-a-roo (wrong cam) time to buy another intake cam
.
.....jv&s
.
.


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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:30 am 
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jankoelbola wrote:
I tried that this morning but the bolt is too tight. I sprayed some penetrating oil on it... we'll see tomorrow then. Thanks :wink:

.
i jam a large screw driver just below the intake through one of the large cam gear holes to hold it from turning it lockes against the block and with a 17MM socket with a small cheeter pipe on the wrench...or ratchet to lossen gear bolt....jv&s


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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:51 am 
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there were a thread here to put cam gears on the wrong notch to gain horsepwer by altering the cam timming (dont know what it was, the intake cam on the E setting or the exaust with I setting !?!?) maybe it's this mod on it?

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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:19 pm 
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bostssgt wrote:
there were a thread here to put cam gears on the wrong notch to gain horsepwer by altering the cam timming (dont know what it was, the intake cam on the E setting or the exaust with I setting !?!?) maybe it's this mod on it?


Here it is: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=15919

Jankoelbola, Is the intake cam pin/dowel in the "I" hole of the intake cam gear? I couldn't see that clear enough in the pics?

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1991-GTi: JE 75mm 11:1 pistons,Ported head, Single UD pulley (OCC),Sandros chip,Aluminium flywheel,3tech 222/365 cams, Cultus headers,Cultus IM,50mm tb,Crane cams adjustable cam gears,Apex suspension, 4.39fd GB.
1989-GTi: 3Tech 210/340 Cams,Cultus IM, B&G springs, TD04L turbo, Apexi SAFC, Suzukird UD pulley, Circuitse7en dual boost controller, AEM wideband, AEM water / meth injection kit, HKS bov.
2001-Altezza AS200: Stock.-sold
2003-EVO7 GT-A
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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:40 pm 
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instant_shine wrote:
bostssgt wrote:
there were a thread here to put cam gears on the wrong notch to gain horsepwer by altering the cam timming (dont know what it was, the intake cam on the E setting or the exaust with I setting !?!?) maybe it's this mod on it?


Here it is: http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=15919

Jankoelbola, Is the intake cam pin/dowel in the "I" hole of the intake cam gear? I couldn't see that clear enough in the pics?

I found some time to work on this tonight. The gear on the intake side was not properly installed, the pin of the cam was on the wrong groove on the gear. So according to that link there's only a 2 degree difference right?
Anyway I installed it correctly now, but the engine is still running like s**t. I'll check the keyway and do a compression test shortly...

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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:13 am 
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jankoelbola wrote:
instant_shine wrote:
bostssgt wrote:
there were a thread here to put cam gears on the wrong notch to gain horsepwer by altering the cam timming (dont know what it was, the intake cam on the E setting or the exaust with I setting !?!?) maybe it's this mod on it?


Here it is: http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=15919

Jankoelbola, Is the intake cam pin/dowel in the "I" hole of the intake cam gear? I couldn't see that clear enough in the pics?


Anyway I installed it correctly now, but the engine is still running like s**t.


What does it do now?

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1991-GTi: JE 75mm 11:1 pistons,Ported head, Single UD pulley (OCC),Sandros chip,Aluminium flywheel,3tech 222/365 cams, Cultus headers,Cultus IM,50mm tb,Crane cams adjustable cam gears,Apex suspension, 4.39fd GB.
1989-GTi: 3Tech 210/340 Cams,Cultus IM, B&G springs, TD04L turbo, Apexi SAFC, Suzukird UD pulley, Circuitse7en dual boost controller, AEM wideband, AEM water / meth injection kit, HKS bov.
2001-Altezza AS200: Stock.-sold
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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:27 am 
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A rule of thumb I've found on suzukis is that the dowel pin on each cam seems to always be at 6 o'clock position when the engine is timed right. Jv&s pics show that fairly clearly. It's just a quick way to ensure things are generally proper when working on thees engines

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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:56 am 
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instant_shine wrote:

What does it do now?


it's still doing the same. It sputters at all times and dies if I bring the ignition timing back down to normal (the dissy is fully advanced now).
All spark plugs are firing, fuel pressure is good, gas is new and the ECU is not throwing any codes. Suggestions?

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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:54 pm 
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Location: Ten Boer, Groningen, Netherlands
Still sounds as worn crank key.

Easy check:
1 Remove sparkplug Cil. 1
2 put a timingclock in there, or use long screwdriver
3 rotate engine until screwdriver/gauge is in top position (crank can be turned very little with out TDC going off.)
4 check timing mark on crank, it should align or be real close to it.
when timing mark is about 180 degr. off, turn crank 360 degr.

If it aligns perfectly while screwdriver is on top, key way is probably ok. To be safe, remove crankwheel anyway and inspect visually.
If it does not align 100% --> keyway is gone.


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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:43 pm 
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Devil-GTi wrote:
Still sounds as worn crank key.

Easy check:
1 Remove sparkplug Cil. 1
2 put a timingclock in there, or use long screwdriver
3 rotate engine until screwdriver/gauge is in top position (crank can be turned very little with out TDC going off.)
4 check timing mark on crank, it should align or be real close to it.
when timing mark is about 180 degr. off, turn crank 360 degr.

If it aligns perfectly while screwdriver is on top, key way is probably ok. To be safe, remove crankwheel anyway and inspect visually.
If it does not align 100% --> keyway is gone.

That's a good tip, thanks! I'll do that tonight. Actually removing the keyway will have to wait til the end of the week though. Fingers crossed...

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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:02 pm 
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I tried the screwdriver method tonight, but I don't think it's accurate enough. I was thinking though, would a bad key cause the engine to sputter? I thought it would more likely cause a shift in powerband... like when the belt is off by a tooth, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:18 pm 
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jankoelbola wrote:
I tried the screwdriver method tonight, but I don't think it's accurate enough. I was thinking though, would a bad key cause the engine to sputter? I thought it would more likely cause a shift in powerband... like when the belt is off by a tooth, right?

.
YES I once bought a parts car that looked like a couple of 10 yr oldkid's worked it over with rock's and a hammer
Rough would be an understatment
.
.
Image
.

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It would not idle worth a damn it would run 3500 and above HARD & FAST
but it would not IDLE .!
Pop, Sneeze, Gurgle,.......
Found out after i tore it apart it was the Key way
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Image
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Image
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I hope it's not to bad but when you describe your car wont idle and wont run unless the dizzy is hard advanced
I've been there and and I tell eanyone how buy a GTI/GT who has running issue check the key way just to check that off
45 minutes and you will know
.

....good luck ...jv&s
.

.

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t3 ragtop wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:26 pm 
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That doesn't look good at all :( ...I hope I get lucky though, cuz I wanted to get the car on the streets by the end of the year.
But what if it's indeed the keyway? Is it repairable or will I have to replace the crank?

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 Post subject: Re: Weird Timing issue
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:35 pm 
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if you want i can walk you through it it really is not that bad of a job.
I learned a few tricks to help the job be less of a hassle.....jv&s
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