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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:11 pm 
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Hello gents, just wondering if any of my fellow teamswift members have had issues with engine oil temps in there race engines? I just blew up one of my Dohc engines and I am pretty sure it was caused by a oil temp of around 300degree Fahrenheit. I do run a mocal 12 row oil cooler with thermostat. Has anyone tried making a custom oil pan to hold more oil? Any ideas?

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1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:23 pm 
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Another engine gone? Damn, that sucks, sorry to hear it. Pretty worried I'll run into the same issue with my oval car, although it was ok so far last season. How is the coolant temperature, does it get pretty hot as well?

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1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Coolant temp was consistently around 190

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1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:20 pm 
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I'd like to hear some opinions of this subject, or more generally how to keep g13b alive under extended high rpm race situations. My oval track car has so far been ok, but when it's hot and I pull in after a race it has extremely low oil pressure, and even hot racing I think it reads maybe 30-40psi at 6500-7500rpm which is half what my civic engine had.
I wonder in your case about bearing clearances being too tight? This is completely a guess, as I am not a race engine builder, but seems I have read something to this extent somewhere.
suprfly, Dattman, anyone have anything to add? I'm going to get another engine ready for a spare, with full machine work done and a very similar build to this car and any advice to help these last would be great!

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1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:41 am 
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T3ragtop has a custom oil pan you may be able to get dimensions from. It was designed for racing.

I'd upload a picture but it seems the resolution is way too high even after knocking it down more than 50% of the size I sent him a few years ago.

Am I no longer allowed to post images? IDK.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:23 am 
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Sorry to hear :cry:
What oil are you using out of curiosity?
I don't remember what my oil temp was in my engine...but I found the coolant temp at idle got over 200
Is it just me or do these engines run hotter than some?

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89 Swift gti
Modified B16 P29 75mm pistons,13:1CR, cultus intake, genie header, genie exhaust, 3tech head, 3tech 222/365 cams, 3tech UD pulley, megasquirt 2.0, 60mm throttle body, Aluminum flywheel


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:55 am 
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What specifically failed this time, do you know yet? I wonder if oil starvation is an issue on corners?

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1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:43 pm 
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I was using joe gibbs racing oil(LS30 5w30). Once I tore the motor down all the mains still look brand new. #4 connecting rod bearing spun which ended into eh engine enables flying into pieces and ruining a engine that only had 14 races on it. The other connecting rod bearings were showing some signs of excessive wear ( small amounts of copper slightly peaking through). I did see a oil temp of 300 degrees Fahrenheit before she let go...

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1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:45 pm 
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beached wrote:
Sorry to hear :cry:
What oil are you using out of curiosity?
I don't remember what my oil temp was in my engine...but I found the coolant temp at idle got over 200
Is it just me or do these engines run hotter than some?

I don't think it is just you beached.... these are some of the hottest running four bangers I have ever worked on... I don't think the sustained high rpm helps though! Lol

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1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:54 pm 
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I am thinking a larger pan (around 6 litre) with some Anti-cavitation gates and a small electric fan on the cooler would help a lot....

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1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:05 am 
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codyb76 wrote:
I'd like to hear some opinions of this subject, or more generally how to keep g13b alive under extended high rpm race situations. My oval track car has so far been ok, but when it's hot and I pull in after a race it has extremely low oil pressure, and even hot racing I think it reads maybe 30-40psi at 6500-7500rpm which is half what my civic engine had.
I wonder in your case about bearing clearances being too tight? This is completely a guess, as I am not a race engine builder, but seems I have read something to this extent somewhere.
suprfly, Dattman, anyone have anything to add? I'm going to get another engine ready for a spare, with full machine work done and a very similar build to this car and any advice to help these last would be great!


Seems to be pretty common with these engines to have low oil pressure at idle, I do know these engines need to be assembled pretty tight.
I run 5w-30 full synthetic in winter and 10w-40 in summer, I just find when the ambient temps start getting up the slightly thicker oil helps.

I also know from my datalogger that long sweeping right hand corners cause oil starvation issues, even with a slow reacting electrical sensor I can see the oil pressure drop considerably on our right handed carousel, no problems on our long left turning sweeper.

Mile high I'm not sure why you are seeing such high oil temps with a cooler, do you have a thermostat on the oil cooler? is it working? may need to look at dry sumping perhaps.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:56 am 
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the trick i learned from the "old guys" years ago was to build a series of sump "traps" that controlled oil slosh in the oil pan.

using an "X" weldment on the floor of the oil pan with doors welded to hinges, oil slosh can be controlled by only allowing the gates to open 1 way, always toward the oil pickup tube. that way oil is never pushed by g forces away from the pickup in right hand turns. :wink:

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:57 am 
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Dattman wrote:
codyb76 wrote:
I'd like to hear some opinions of this subject, or more generally how to keep g13b alive under extended high rpm race situations. My oval track car has so far been ok, but when it's hot and I pull in after a race it has extremely low oil pressure, and even hot racing I think it reads maybe 30-40psi at 6500-7500rpm which is half what my civic engine had.
I wonder in your case about bearing clearances being too tight? This is completely a guess, as I am not a race engine builder, but seems I have read something to this extent somewhere.
suprfly, Dattman, anyone have anything to add? I'm going to get another engine ready for a spare, with full machine work done and a very similar build to this car and any advice to help these last would be great!


Seems to be pretty common with these engines to have low oil pressure at idle, I do know these engines need to be assembled pretty tight.
I run 5w-30 full synthetic in winter and 10w-40 in summer, I just find when the ambient temps start getting up the slightly thicker oil helps.

I also know from my datalogger that long sweeping right hand corners cause oil starvation issues, even with a slow reacting electrical sensor I can see the oil pressure drop considerably on our right handed carousel, no problems on our long left turning sweeper.

Mile high I'm not sure why you are seeing such high oil temps with a cooler, do you have a thermostat on the oil cooler? is it working? may need to look at dry sumping perhaps.


Dattman, I am pretty sure the oil cooler is working since it was smoking hott after each race..... I just don't think I was getting the amount of airflow to it that I needed... it runs great at colder ambient temps but as soon as it gets into the plus temps I can't keep the oil temp down. Plus I don't believe these stock pumps have the capacity that I need.... I sure wish somone made a racing version.

T3.... I have a little experience with the x baffle system from circle track cars... so it will forsure be something I will try out.

_________________
1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:13 pm 
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Have you considered crank scrapers? A company (can be found online) makes them for the Suzuki engines (as well as others). They also make a windage tray that is fitted in addition to the stock windage tray. Both are supposed to help maintain oil pressure by keeping the oil in the sump, rather than in the air around the crank. Together they are <$200 + cost of some welding for the tray.

Another way to maintain oil pressure would be the addition of an Accusump system (http://www.accusump.com/). More expensive than scrapers and windage tray, more complex and heavier.

Consider an oil pressure switch that switches "on" at higher pressures than when the engine idles, then wire it to a brake light mounted in front of you. Then before the pressure drops too low, you'll get a warning.

Then there's converting to a dry sump system...

If you're not getting air to flow through the cooler, then it won't cool, it will only act as a heat sink. A little experimenting should lead to more effective air flow.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:59 pm 
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Mile High Racing wrote:
Dattman, I am pretty sure the oil cooler is working since it was smoking hott after each race..... I just don't think I was getting the amount of airflow to it that I needed... it runs great at colder ambient temps but as soon as it gets into the plus temps I can't keep the oil temp down. Plus I don't believe these stock pumps have the capacity that I need.... I sure wish somone made a racing version.

T3.... I have a little experience with the x baffle system from circle track cars... so it will forsure be something I will try out.


AFAIK the g10/g13 oil pumps flow 6L and g16 flows 7L, as for baffling, people have been doing it ever since cars were invented, however most people only do it when they have a problem with it oil starvation, personally an oil pressure light is a waste of time, if the light comes on then the damage is already done since most of the switches only switch on at 10-20psi, logging is the best way to understand whats going on.

If your cooler is not getting the airflow then you need to consider your ducting at the front of the car, blocking off the parts around the radiator and your oil cooler so air will only flow through your radiator and oil cooler.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:06 pm 
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hehe, i'm pretty sure that i qualified my statement by saying that i learned the sump baffle trick from the old guys when i was a young guy. :wink:

the old guys i knew pretty much invented cars. :mrgreen:

i had to pull out the stops for thermal management to keep my turbo3 project engine from burning up. one of the things i found was that the factory fan is woefully lacking for an engine with even a modest increase in hp from stock. even the cowling doesn't perform well. i run 12" 1650 cfm fans that mount directly to the radiator core. i also run a chinese made 2" core fabricated aluminum radiator which improves engine cooling.

the entire front side of the engine bay is taken up by the radiator and water to air intercooling heat exchanger, the heat exchanger running the same 12" 1650 cfm fan albeit speed controlled by my megasquirt using a temp vs fan speed process control algorithm that maintains 98 f on the intercooler output tank up to full boost pressure of 21 psi with ambient air temps under 90 f. i designed provisions for the a2w circulation pump to be speed controlled as well but i don't use that feature and let the pump run at it's peak curve.

on the oil pump i started out using a 20 row cooler and eventually scaled back to a 9 row that runs fairly steady state without cycling the thermostat in the oil adapter. the oil temp t-stat is something that i omitted from my lil' black monster turbo3 engine which uses the turbine tech gen 1 upgrade kit including the remote filter adapter that jard made for the kit.

oil pressure itself is controlled as much by the 55 psi control spring in the oil pump's pressure relief valve as it is by the oiling system itself. at 55 psi the valve lifts and dumps oil directly back into the sump. bearing wear, seal degradation, and deposits/ blockages in the passageways all contribute to lower volumetric flow but the system pressure won't exceed 55 psi unless there is a problem with the over pressure valve. the oil internal galley runs from the over pressure valve through the block to the oil filter boss. through the filter and into the passageway where the oil pressure switch lives and then through internal passageways to the various oiling points.

i purposely used 12mm diameter hoses with smooth bore a-n fittings to the oil cooler filter set at the rear of the lower engine bay, back to the oil cooler in the front, and then back to the filter adapter to maximize the volume of the oil cooler/ remote filter system. it added 2 quarts to the oil volume.

don't underestmate to amount of work it is to construct a good gated baffle in a suzuki oil pan. the construction is best done using a tig welder, something i don't have in my kit. borrowing time on a tig machine for me is sort of hard these days. and because i'm an old bastard my eyes aren't all they used to be. :blackeye:

on my twincam vert i used the same aluminum radiator, fan, and hose set. because i run the oem ecu with an upgraded eeprom i use an outboard adjustable fan speed control unit made by spal. it has adjustable lower and upper temperature settings. when coolant temp reaches the lower set point the controller applies full voltage to spin the fan up and then drops to 50% speed. as coolant temp moves up to the higher temp set point the fan speed increases linearly up to 100% at the upper temp setting. i set the low point at 160* f, the t-stat is rated at 192* f, and i set the upper point at 200* f. it works like a charm and rarely runs the fan at full boogey.

on non-air conditioned models the factory used a stamped steel panel screwed at 4 points to the upper and lower radiator supports that block air to create a high pressure zone directly in front of the engine radiator. on the upright brace in the center of the upper and lower radiators supports they used a thin plastic bit that made a smooth, contoured transition point to flow air blocked on the right side through the radiator on the left side. conversely, the back side of the panel directly in front of the engine becomes a low pressure zone which directs flow up into the engine bay across the top of the engine, and then down the firewall where it merges with air flowing under the car. that was part of the reason the bottom the firewall kicks back, to merge air.

early on when i was playing with these cars i instrumented the engine bay with thermocouples connected to a data scanner to measure air temps under the hood while driving the car to develop air flow models. as an engineer i have always admired suzuki's all but invisible design tweaks. the thermal dynamics of the engine bay design are impressive at at 30 mph the under hood temps are within a degree f of ambient temps.

i see a lot of race cars that have blocked up the front bodywork to gain some aerodynamic advantage. typically, that sort of modification would create an even lower pressure under the car. that would increase delta pressure between the high pressure zone in front of the radiator and the low pressure zone where entrainment occurs at the bottom of the firewall. unfortunately, the air dam kills the intermediate pressure zone in front of the engine behind the blocking panel. that area becomes a quieted area that doesn't work very well to wick away engine heat at the exhaust manifold and off the valve cover. i have always thought that a modified naca duct on the right side of the hood towards the front corner of the hood would help thermal management.

anyway, one of the first things that crosses my mind with race cars is the probability of stagnant air flow in the engine bay causing heat soak problems.

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:23 pm 
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Here is a link on the windage tray.http://www.crank-scrapers.com/Suzuki.html


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:26 am 
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Wow thanks for all the awesome info everyone... I have considered crank scrapers and windage tray. I also thought about putting spacers on hood hinges to pop the back of the hood up when it's closed to cause a suction effect on the engine bay and draw that dammed up air up and out. The aluminum rad and higher efficient fan I have also considered. I am forsure gonna try many of these things if not all of them.... this little engine sure flys and if I can make it live longer it would be awesome.

Dattman... do you think the 1.6 oil pump is a benefit? I have heard more flow isn't necessarily a good thing because more flow will cause less oil pressure....

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1999 suzuki swift ice race car... Dohc engine conversion, 3tech 222/365 cams, bored tb, aasco lightweight flywheel, 4.56 final drive, Welded Diff, cultus intake, srd 4to1 header, spool forged rods, Megasquirt PNP, H&R sport springs and Koni yellow shocks.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:31 am 
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aluminum radiator

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=su ... r&_sacat=0

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:31 am 
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Does anyone have any ideas as to why this engine runs hot?
Maybe the volume of oil that is in the engine isn't enough once modied.
I don't think I have seen pictures of valve covers time and time again where the paint just flakes off compared to other cars.

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89 Swift gti
Modified B16 P29 75mm pistons,13:1CR, cultus intake, genie header, genie exhaust, 3tech head, 3tech 222/365 cams, 3tech UD pulley, megasquirt 2.0, 60mm throttle body, Aluminum flywheel


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:23 am 
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beached wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas as to why this engine runs hot?
Maybe the volume of oil that is in the engine isn't enough once modied.
I don't think I have seen pictures of valve covers time and time again where the paint just flakes off compared to other cars.


The engine runs hot because it has a very high specific output, ie makes a lot of hp per cc.

With my old cam and revving to 8000 rpm my water temp sat at 91'C constantly, when I changed my cam and the rev limit increased to 8400rpm my water temp now sits at 94'C, it's very consistent and shows a few hp more and an extra 400rpm has caused a 3'C increase.

Milehigh, yes I think the slight advantage for the g16 oil pump is worth it.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:03 pm 
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Great discussion guys. Nice the see a thread come alive. The specific output being high is an interesting thought, I wonder if you would be seeing these issues on a stock(or mild) engine doing the same thing. I have contemplated how far to go with my oval track build for this reason, but of course the quest for more power is hard to resist!
I think sometimes the whole "race" thing can mean various things, but from what I've seen oval racing or ice racing is way more stressful than what most call racing. There just isn't much time for the engine to relax and cool off, it's just nonstop screaming. I'm amazed they survive at all, drag racing is way easier on the engine I think because its over so fast.
I read an article while thinking about this thread that claimed that new synthetic oils have a breakdown temp well over 300deg, so technically does that mean they can still protect and do their job at that temp?

_________________
1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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