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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:24 pm 
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Location: Oss, the Netherlands
Today I've bought a cluster of a 1991 Swift 1.3 GS, which I want to put in my 1991 1.0. Problem is that what's inside doesn"t look like any of the pictures posted in this topic :?

Front:

Image

Little circuitboard:

Image

There are 4 resistors:

R1=39k
R2=120k
R3=56k
R4=4
Which one to replace? :?
The white thing on the left is a variable resistor. My guess is just to plug it in and rev the engine to 1500rpm on the tach and turn the resistor until the tach points 2000rpm. Should be right according to a post around here.
Anyone figured this out yet?

_________________
'95 Swift 1.0:

- 0,5mm oversized pistons
- mildly ported head, 1,7mm taken off
- ss exhaust valves
- 222/365 3tech cam
- +10 gear
- K&N air filter
- TBI bridge removed
- 40mm throttle and intake manifold
- srd underdrive pulley
- AASCO 3kg flywheel with GTi clutch
- GTi catback
- deleted cat, now 2" ss pipe
- 14x6J ET45 BSA Racing
- Nankang AS-1 165/55-14
- 35mm lower Apex front and rear springs
- GTi sway bar
- Turbinetech underbody brace
- Ultra Racing upper strut bar

0-100kph: unknown seconds


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:12 pm 
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JellyBeanDriver wrote:
I think the clusters changed over the years, or they're different for a 4cyl vs 3 cyl metro.

......Oh yeah, yours has 3 bulbs in the front upper right (upper left in your rear view) but his only has 2 - the center bulb is missing and I don't see a window for it on the front.

edit: Nevermind. In Lihtan's photo it's the fog lamp indicator.

Dave


as a point of clarification since this is stickied, light from the bulbs feed cast lucite light spreaders that route light via optical channels to various points behind the display for back lighting.

they're designed to work with incandescent lamps with color filters so pay attention to that technology in case you get the itch to replace them with leds. you have to get the ones that have a reverse cone on the end to diffuse the beam and utilize the oem light spreaders. leds with a domed end and focused beam don't work well in this application.

the bench work, data, and recalibration how-to remains a great work.

Peenutzz, i don't think that you'll find 500 rpms worth of range in that trim resistor. those are usually in the circuit to provide a way to tweak the gauge movement a small bit.

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:48 pm 
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta
STuPiDiCuS wrote:
and the reading I get when touching the contacts I just soldered is: 382K!?!

:headscratch:

any ideas? it's not 20.5K, buuuuut it's connected to everything on the PCB now, maybe that's got something to do with it. Any ideas?

Please tell me if it's right.

Image

-------------------------------------------------------

UPDATE: Because their places were the opposite of those in the picture I replaced the wrong resistor the first time, I should have checked their values first.
The two on my 89 GTi cluster were a 22k and a 43k, not 39k. Wierd.

For the record: replace the one that isn't red red orange gold. That's the 22k one. And yes, the 3 100k in series did work. It all adds up to 20.1k now. Close enough.


Anyone care to chime in on if a single 330k is 'close enough' as a replacement for the 300k + 22k (322k) required to change resistance to modify a Mk2 4-cyl to a Mk2 3-cyl.?

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'Noisy Cricket' build thread http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=46988


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:06 pm 
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incorrigible wrote:

Anyone care to chime in on if a single 330k is 'close enough' as a replacement for the 300k + 22k (322k) required to change resistance to modify a Mk2 4-cyl to a Mk2 3-cyl.?


The resistors are in parallel, not in series, they do not add up to 322K - like the man says, the required resistance is 20.5K

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:53 am 
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fordem wrote:
incorrigible wrote:

Anyone care to chime in on if a single 330k is 'close enough' as a replacement for the 300k + 22k (322k) required to change resistance to modify a Mk2 4-cyl to a Mk2 3-cyl.?


The resistors are in parallel, not in series, they do not add up to 322K - like the man says, the required resistance is 20.5K


I'm very pleased that these electrical items are very clear to you. I've been an engineer for 20yrs and all matters electrical have always been a little beyond me :huh: . When I look at the circuit board the resistors appear to be on the same circuit as in these pics(the 330k resistor is shown)

Image

Image

So my understanding now is a single 330k resistor will not replace a 22k and 300k run side-by-side(serially).

As I have to work with what I have access to can I replace the 300k resistor with 3-100k resistors run end to end(there are no 300k resistors here)?

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'Noisy Cricket' build thread http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=46988


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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:08 am 
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Resistance isn't exactly additive when you have two resistive objects running 'side by side'/parallel-ly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and ... l_circuits

This should help straighten things out. :D


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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:20 am 
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Do you have to use a resistance on a 4 cyl. tach for use on a 3 cyl.?

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:19 pm 
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t3 ragtop wrote:
Peenutzz, i don't think that you'll find 500 rpms worth of range in that trim resistor. those are usually in the circuit to provide a way to tweak the gauge movement a small bit.


Well, today I was bored, and I took another look at the cluster and I decided to give it a go, and try the trim-resistor. I connected the cluster to the car and fired it up. Checked all the lights, and they worked like they are supposed to. As expected, the tach pointed 3/4 from what it should. I took the car for a spin to warm up the engine and went back home. Took a look at the tach and at idle it was around 750rpm. Then I took it apart, and turned the trim-resistor clockwise all the way, which is about 180 degrees from the factory setting. Installed the cluster again, fired up the engine and a smile appeared on my face. At idle, the tach pointed about 2200rpm. I took it apart again, and since I turned 180 degrees, which meant roughly 1500 rpm more on the gauge, I turned the resistor back to factory, and then roughly 30 degrees clockwise again, so the gauge would point 1500/6=250rpm's more at idle. Installed it, and fired up for the third time. I was only a 100 rpm's off. :) I revved the engine up, and the rev limiter kicked in at about 6300rpm. Since it should be at 6500, and idle was a little low, I took the cluster apart one more time, gave the resistor a few more degrees and when I put it together for the last time, I checked and idle now is at 1000rpm, rev limiter at 6500rpm. Seems pretty accurate to me :D :D :D

I don't know if this will work for other clusters, since the pictures I've seen were totally different from the one I have here. So to make things clear: This cluster is one from a 1991 Suzuki Swift 1.3GS, which I fitted in a 1991 Suzuki Swift 1.0GA.

_________________
'95 Swift 1.0:

- 0,5mm oversized pistons
- mildly ported head, 1,7mm taken off
- ss exhaust valves
- 222/365 3tech cam
- +10 gear
- K&N air filter
- TBI bridge removed
- 40mm throttle and intake manifold
- srd underdrive pulley
- AASCO 3kg flywheel with GTi clutch
- GTi catback
- deleted cat, now 2" ss pipe
- 14x6J ET45 BSA Racing
- Nankang AS-1 165/55-14
- 35mm lower Apex front and rear springs
- GTi sway bar
- Turbinetech underbody brace
- Ultra Racing upper strut bar

0-100kph: unknown seconds


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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:55 am 
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by the way. i put the 89 GTi cluster in my 91 metro. i replaced a 56k ( or 65k i forget blu-grn or grn-blu) with 300k and it works fine. BUT NOW MY GAS GAUGE SHOWS 1/8 to 1/4 LOW. you may want to confirm that the new cluster resistors match your old ones. i dint think ahead. :oops:

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the time i mispent in my youth

daily driver: red 1991 Metro 3cyl 5sp, roof rack, 8 degree advance,
got 61 mpg combined on 14" tires but i prefer 12"

completed frame up restoration: black 1994 Swift GT 5sp -- like new ! 45mpg


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:28 pm 
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incorrigible wrote:
As I have to work with what I have access to can I replace the 300k resistor with 3-100k resistors run end to end(there are no 300k resistors here)?

i dont know if you got that question answered so here goes:
(LEAVE THE 22k ALONE. replace the one beside it -- first or second from the edge)
i wouldnt try to connect three 100s in series in that small space. i was unable to find 300k at RadioShack or Frys. YOU CAN USE 330k or 270k which they had. Even though that is 10% different the impact is:
with 330k 1.5% lower than actual -- reading 3000 will be ACTUALLY 2955 +/-10.
with 270k 1.5% higher than actual -- reading 3000 will be ACTUALLY 3044 +/-10.
Even a 300k with gold band (+/-5%) reading 3000 will be between 2990 and 3010 aprox.
at idle?
with 330k -- reading 1000 will be ACTUALLY 985 +/-3.
with 270k -- reading 1000 will be ACTUALLY 1015 +/-3.

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looking for:
the time i mispent in my youth

daily driver: red 1991 Metro 3cyl 5sp, roof rack, 8 degree advance,
got 61 mpg combined on 14" tires but i prefer 12"

completed frame up restoration: black 1994 Swift GT 5sp -- like new ! 45mpg


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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:06 pm 
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for what its worth, ive got a thread viewtopic.php?f=12&t=38127 and im doing the same thing, I posted pics in there, I wont double post them

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1996 Metro Build QR25de swap, still undecided where to take it
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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:46 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:21 pm
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Location: Oss, the Netherlands
Today I replaced my 95 3cyl cluster with a 92 4cyl cluster with tach. Almost plug and play. Again, like in my old car, there was a trim resistor (two of them actually) and with those I had enough range to make it work. Limiter at 6500, idle approx. 1000. Circuitboard doesn´t match any others mentioned in this topic. Glad I didn´t have to get my soldering iron 8)

_________________
'95 Swift 1.0:

- 0,5mm oversized pistons
- mildly ported head, 1,7mm taken off
- ss exhaust valves
- 222/365 3tech cam
- +10 gear
- K&N air filter
- TBI bridge removed
- 40mm throttle and intake manifold
- srd underdrive pulley
- AASCO 3kg flywheel with GTi clutch
- GTi catback
- deleted cat, now 2" ss pipe
- 14x6J ET45 BSA Racing
- Nankang AS-1 165/55-14
- 35mm lower Apex front and rear springs
- GTi sway bar
- Turbinetech underbody brace
- Ultra Racing upper strut bar

0-100kph: unknown seconds


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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:33 am 
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Location: Atlanta GA 30052
xrw44 wrote:
by the way. i put the 89 GTi cluster in my 91 metro. i replaced a 56k ( or 65k i forget blu-grn or grn-blu) with 300k and it works fine. BUT NOW MY GAS GAUGE SHOWS 1/8 to 1/4 LOW. you may want to confirm that the new cluster resistors match your old ones. i dint think ahead. :oops:

this is how i fixed the fuel gauge
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42691&hilit=fuel+gauge

_________________
looking for:
the time i mispent in my youth

daily driver: red 1991 Metro 3cyl 5sp, roof rack, 8 degree advance,
got 61 mpg combined on 14" tires but i prefer 12"

completed frame up restoration: black 1994 Swift GT 5sp -- like new ! 45mpg


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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:42 am 
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Location: Goochland, Virginia
Have a 95 metro 3cly GL. Went to local pick and pay yard got a odometer-tach cluster from a 96 4cly metro LSI. Would like to install this on my 95 for factory tach look. I have read all the post and a little confused as what needs to be done to make the 96 4cly tach work on my 95 3 cly. Could someone help me out on this?

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:35 pm 
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If you dig through the posts in this thread, there's info on how to swap out a few resistors on Nippon Denso 4 cylinder clusters, so the tach works properly on 3 cylinder motors.

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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:44 pm 
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I think it's the very top sticky in the electrical section.

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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:45 pm 
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I will like to know if the 3cyl cluster with tach will work on a 4cyl engine.


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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:17 pm 
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You would have to modify the cluster to make sure the tach reads correctly. I'm sure it could be done. It'd probably be easier to just find a 4-cyl version, though.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Recalibrated a tach for a guy over on GMF. His calc in an email to me of what the new resistance value should be was spot on.

Here's a pic of my 'calibration' setup, resistor substitution box allows me to dial in what value is needed and then a fixed resistor is installed.
Image

One end of 9.1K resistor was lifted and a 27K resistor tacked across the existing 20K resistor.
Image

Total resistance value to make it read correctly for a 3cyl is now 11.49K vs the original resistance of 6.25K for a 4 cyl.

_________________
1992 Geo metro, 1.0L 5spd, 511,000miles on original engine & trans
- First time engine work at 456K miles, bad headgasket. Rebuilt head, Felpro gasket installed.
- knuckles/hubs/brakes/13" wheels from a 2000 Metro, running 175 70R13
- New bearings and 1st/2nd synchros at 440.5K miles.
- MPGuino
- Averaging ~ 51MPG these days


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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:40 pm 
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jbd, if you don't mind an off the wall question - what's the voltage level of the driver signal you use to check the tach's response? i've never measured it.

the reason that i'm asking is that i have to replicate a drive signal to run a standard 3 cylinder cluster's tach for my turbo3 project and if my plans to use the combined pulses from 3 individual gt ignitors doesn't pan out, i'll have to design a circuit that will run off the megasquirt's tach signal.

the word from the other suzuki "squirters" is that the tach output from the ms fails or is not reliable.

thanks doc. :D

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:17 pm 
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I originally had the pulse generator output set to 12.5V and the tach was unresponsive. Had to raise the output to 15V pk to pk to get it to start working. There's a resistor in series with the tach input pin - don't remember the value. Reducing the value of this resistor may help when hooked to a MS.

_________________
1992 Geo metro, 1.0L 5spd, 511,000miles on original engine & trans
- First time engine work at 456K miles, bad headgasket. Rebuilt head, Felpro gasket installed.
- knuckles/hubs/brakes/13" wheels from a 2000 Metro, running 175 70R13
- New bearings and 1st/2nd synchros at 440.5K miles.
- MPGuino
- Averaging ~ 51MPG these days


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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:10 pm 
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I HAVE A CLUSTER WITH TACH WITH THE FOLLOWING PART # 34100-60B70, AND ALSO HAS 257800-8544. WHO KNOWS IF ITS A 3 CYL OR 4 CYL CLUSTER


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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:48 pm 
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Well, I'd like to revisit this for a minute. I don't have a schematic for the tach, so I don't want guess about input connections to perform a test. I wold expect there to be 12V, ground and an input pulse. But I see GND, IG+ and IG-. Huh?

I've got an ND cluster from what was presumably a 96 4-cyl (distributor) that I want to use on a 2000 3-cyl (also distributored). Can't be sure of the cluster's pedigree, but the date code on the drive IC is '95, so it's a good bet. I've got it apart, and it looks exactly like what your photo shows. But, the 20K resistor on my sample isn't 20K. It's 27K, just like the part you tacked on to your 20K part. The 9.1K part (lifted) is the same. With two 27Ks, my parallel won't be 11.5K, but rather 13.5K.

So I'm confused. Why would there be any difference between the clusters for those values?

Also, is the freq really 100.3 Hz and what does the duty cycle look like (looks to be... 80%?)? Worst case, I could do what you did and pick a custom resistor value. Can you describe your test setup and connections so that I can duplicate it?

Anyone ever come across a data sheet for that IC? That would definitely help.

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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:53 am 
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MrPink wrote:
Well, I'd like to revisit this for a minute. I don't have a schematic for the tach, so I don't want guess about input connections to perform a test. I wold expect there to be 12V, ground and an input pulse. But I see GND, IG+ and IG-. Huh?

I've got an ND cluster from what was presumably a 96 4-cyl (distributor) that I want to use on a 2000 3-cyl (also distributored). Can't be sure of the cluster's pedigree, but the date code on the drive IC is '95, so it's a good bet. I've got it apart, and it looks exactly like what your photo shows. But, the 20K resistor on my sample isn't 20K. It's 27K, just like the part you tacked on to your 20K part. The 9.1K part (lifted) is the same. With two 27Ks, my parallel won't be 11.5K, but rather 13.5K.

So I'm confused. Why would there be any difference between the clusters for those values?

Also, is the freq really 100.3 Hz and what does the duty cycle look like (looks to be... 80%?)? Worst case, I could do what you did and pick a custom resistor value. Can you describe your test setup and connections so that I can duplicate it?

Anyone ever come across a data sheet for that IC? That would definitely help.


Gnd is Gnd, Ig+ is +12V, Ig- is the pulse input from the negative terminal of the coil.
Can't tell you why there is a difference, but the first tach I modified was different than the 2nd, and it sounds like yours is different yet. Guessing it just has to do with multiple sourcing or revision levels of the tach. I'd expect the percentage change needed to be the same though.

For a 3 cyl engine, frequency = (RPM/60)*1.5, so 4000 RPM = 100Hz. The freq counter was measuring what the pulse generator was putting out. 100.3Hz = 4012 RPM, close enough to 4000. Duty cycle didn't seem to matter. I could vary it from 10% to 90% and the RPM reading was solid.

I cannot find the post calculating what the resistances should be - I'll look tomorrow.

_________________
1992 Geo metro, 1.0L 5spd, 511,000miles on original engine & trans
- First time engine work at 456K miles, bad headgasket. Rebuilt head, Felpro gasket installed.
- knuckles/hubs/brakes/13" wheels from a 2000 Metro, running 175 70R13
- New bearings and 1st/2nd synchros at 440.5K miles.
- MPGuino
- Averaging ~ 51MPG these days


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 Post subject: Re: 3cyl. Tach !
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:06 pm 
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Awesome, thank you! So I am correct in assuming that it's a negative-going pulse, just like your scope is showing? Is the range +15 to 0 in, or is it smaller?

If you find that post with the formula, it would definitely save me some time.

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