TeamSwift

Home of the Suzuki mini-compacts ! Your Home for all things Suzuki Swift, Geo Metro, Holden Barina, Chevy Sprint, Pontiac Firefly, and Suzuki Cultus. TeamSwift is a technical performance oriented community!
It is currently Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:09 am

Underbody braces, turbos and more!

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 91 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:04 pm 
Offline
Suzuki Elder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
Posts: 11639
Location: columbus, ohio
that's where i benefited from working for a couple of years in a motor shop. i learned all about dc motors and how to set them up. i'm happy to hear that there was a wide enough range of adjustment on the brush yoke to accomplish dialing in the reverse operation. some dc motors can't be converted that easily, especially those that have brush geometry that has more of a tilt to the brush mounting.

another good source of motor controllers is from old taylor-dunn electric tugs. they have some excellent motor controllers ranging from 36 vdc to 180 vdc. the newer versions are encapsulated in big extruded heat sinks and the only external components are the isolation, forward and reverse solenoids and the electronic throttle.

you might also consider a ducted, fan forced cooling system for the armature and brushes. heat is a problem for the brushes. when they operate long term at high temps, the carbon gets even more brittle, chips and fractures causing them to develop sharp edges which can scar the copper bus bars on the armature. when the armature wears down, the insulators between the bars start to bounce the brushes causing arcing that further hastens brush and armature wear.

another thing to think about in your evolving design is that the motor will operate at an ambient temperature much higher than the air temp. that tends to condense water from the forced cooling air onto the armature and brushes. dc motors don't deal real well with condensation. it starts to affect commutation and screws with the motor controller.

in that case i would try to fabricate a shroud for the motor to incorporate with the forced air cooling design to allow the heat from the motor to act as a pre-heater for the armature cooling air supply. ideally, you would want to drop 20 or 30 degrees from the ambient motor temperature for the cooling air to the armature end of the motor. if you wanted to get really fancy you could also use a liquid type heat exchanger on the motor frame and a circulation pump to use with the stock heater core for defogging the windshield.

your conversion is really quite elegant and well thought out. i'm following your progress with enthusiasm. :D

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 634
Location: Eastern Ontario
t3 ragtop wrote:
especially those that have brush geometry that has more of a tilt to the brush mounting.


Yeah, we were lucky: the brushes were set vertically off the comm. (Tangentally is probably more correct?)

Quote:
you might also consider a ducted, fan forced cooling system for the armature and brushes. heat is a problem for the brushes. when they operate long term at high temps


In this respect, we may be OK without special cooling considerations. The car's only going to be used for short hops. Its range probably won't be more than about 20 km, and its average trip length will more likely be around like 6 or 7 km (maybe 10 - 15 minutes driving).

Quote:
the motor will operate at an ambient temperature much higher than the air temp. that tends to condense water from the forced cooling air onto the armature and brushes.


Confused. I thought water condenses onto things that are cooler than ambient?

Quote:
your conversion is really quite elegant and well thought out.


It only appears that way because I'm a master of illusion! =)

The truth is, we've been winging it and not really "reading ahead" to the next step as much as we should be. As proof: 1) we're not using the car we originally planned to use (too rusty). And, 2) we're not using the motor we originally planned to use (diameter too big)! We're just lucky we "happened" to have an extra motor from the forklift that turned out to actually be more appropriate for this car anyway (which I only learned after the fact).

And tonight I couldn't get my eBay golf cart controller to work either :( . Troubleshooting tomorrow. Each step is pretty much into virgin territory. And to be honest, that's one of the enjoyable things about doing this - learning some new stuff hands on.

_________________
Image
www.MetroMPG.com ... www.ForkenSwift.com
... www.EcoModder.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2003 11:31 pm
Posts: 2456
Location: New York State
geometro wrote:
Its range probably won't be more than about 20 km

But if you had a trailer with a diesel generator on it running on used fryer oil....
:D :D :D

_________________
1994 Metro - MPH project (getting a DOHC G13B)
1994 Metro - MPG project (getting an XFi G10)
1992 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1991 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1990 Swift - Parts car
1997 Metro - Parts car (gone)
1993 Metro - Parts car
1989 Swift GTi - Parts car
1998 Metro - Parts car


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:58 am 
Offline
Suzuki Elder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
Posts: 11639
Location: columbus, ohio
geometro wrote:
t3 ragtop wrote:
the motor will operate at an ambient temperature much higher than the air temp. that tends to condense water from the forced cooling air onto the armature and brushes.


Confused. I thought water condenses onto things that are cooler than ambient?



sorry for that confusion. probably due to my running "flight of thoughts" while i was typing.

the cooler air from forced induction only reduces the temperature of the brush assembly and armature end of the motor with water laden air. the other end of the motor is considerably hotter. that makes the cooler end of the motor generate condensation on the brush yokes and brushes. i used to run into that problem quite often on dc powered drive motors used on industrial extruders. i'd usually "mix" hot air from the motor frame with the cooling air and adjust the combined air to get a temp that provided cooling without forming condensation.

i keep repeating these words to myself whenever i get involved with engineering something - "don't build yourself into a corner." :lol:

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 634
Location: Eastern Ontario
T3: that makes more sense.

Latest news:

Got both motor controllers working - the GE EV-1 controller from the forklift, and finally got the Curtis golf cart controller going too.

More correctly, someone who is smarter than I am looked at the wiring diagram I hunted down for the Club Car golf cart and suggested a way to connect the potentiometer using all 3 wires (normally you just have to use 2 pot wires for motor control). The golf cart had a weird 5-wire pot that threw me off. (Hey - 12 months ago, I didn't know what a potentiometer was...)

So! Last night I spun the motor up (and down, and up, and down... :D) with the Cursit. So smoooooooooooth. So golf cart-ish. (I should rename this thread: How to make a slow car waaaay slower.) It made me want to pile the batteries on the passenger seat and head for the fairways.

So now the question is: which controller to use in the car (they each have their own advantages/disadvantages). Still, it's a good problem to have.

---

Testing the EV-1 controller:

Image

Above - laid out in the basement on a piece of cardboard is the entire forklift wiring harness and all its connections & switches, attached to the complete control panel on the desk.

Image

The output was fed into a 36v light for testing purposes. The rod I'm pushing rotates the internal pot, which activates the controller, which varies the juice sent to the light ... making this the largest and most complicated dimmer switch I've ever used. :D

What this means is technically we could put the car back on the ground tonight, hook up some batteries and go drive it around the block. But I may actually restrain myself long enough to mount the potbox in the engine compartment and connect it to the accelerator, rather than control the speed with a dial pot duct-taped to the dashboard!

But a test drive isn't too far off.

_________________
Image
www.MetroMPG.com ... www.ForkenSwift.com
... www.EcoModder.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 634
Location: Eastern Ontario
What happens when you combine a forklift, a Swift, a Metro and a golf cart:

Image

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ins29dqbac[/url]

_________________
Image
www.MetroMPG.com ... www.ForkenSwift.com
... www.EcoModder.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:19 pm
Posts: 26
Lol... i was reading this here thread, but not paying attention to the dates... until i ran out of thread to read. I thought you had stopped working on it, but it's just taking longer than expected. :lol: Good luck!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 634
Location: Eastern Ontario
Originally I thought we'd have the car on the road in the fall (of 2006). I've since learned to stop making specific predictions. ;)

Seriously, one of the things this project has taught me is patience.

_________________
Image
www.MetroMPG.com ... www.ForkenSwift.com
... www.EcoModder.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 634
Location: Eastern Ontario
For people interested in schematics (or just like looking at pretty pictures), here's what we worked out for the ForkenSwift.

(Made with input from several people more experienced with this kind of stuff than I am.)

Image

1. Turning the ignition "on" activates a 12v relay that brings in the pack negative contactor (big beefy relay).

2. Initial press of the go pedal closes the potbox microswitch which brings in the pack positive contactor. The controller is now hot.

3. Pushing the go pedal further moves the potentiometer, which signals the controller, which feeds juice to the motor.

4. Other bits are gauges (amp draw, voltage, hour meter - hey it was on the forklift, why not use it?) and fuses.

5. So there are 2 failsafes if the controller fails "ON" (which is how they fail, apparently full speed ahead): 1) the potentiometer microswitch, and 2) the ignition switch. We're thinking of adding a big red panic button on the dashboard, but haven't decided yet. :huh:

---

Image

Breaking news: picked up eight used 6v flooded batts from the local company that sold us the forklift. These are freebies, and they came out of industrial floor cleaners, replaced on a service schedule. They'll make up our test pack. Who knows, maybe they'll have enough life left in them to actually use... still need to test them out.

_________________
Image
www.MetroMPG.com ... www.ForkenSwift.com
... www.EcoModder.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 1:48 pm
Posts: 415
Location: portland oregon
Good work.
More pictures please.
I love it!
john :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 634
Location: Eastern Ontario
OK, more pictures. Did some more stuff this weekend considered photo-worthy.

(Clicky, zoomy.)

Image

Potbox installed in the car (well, "positioned" is more accurate. Needs a few more self-tapping bolts to call it "installed"). As luck would have it, the ICE's throttle cable travel very closely matches the travel of the potbox actuator arm. Just needed to back off the throttle stop inside the car a little bit to give the cable the needed full range.

The potbox's actuator arm has physical stops at "off" and "full monty". There's also a second set of stops in the internal mechanism. The return spring is also internal - we'll probably add a second spring on on the actuator arm.

Image

Image

Made cardboard mockups to play around with battery positioning (total box height = battery height including terminals). Hood reinstalled to test for clearance (about 1 1/2 inches - whew - just enough room for racks & cabling). It's like the car was specifically built to accept 4 golf cart batteries up front with an inch or 2 of clearance all around. Nice.

Next step is making battery trays/hold downs. This week my brother and I are going to look at welders (going to split on one). I've never welded before, but there's a first time for everything.

_________________
Image
www.MetroMPG.com ... www.ForkenSwift.com
... www.EcoModder.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 1:48 pm
Posts: 415
Location: portland oregon
:sunny: Any news? :sunny: :mrgreen:
john :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 634
Location: Eastern Ontario
Not really. Winter, you know. :oops:

Working on making trays out of angle iron to mount some of the batteries up front as shown in the pics above (the batts we have are 63 lbs each, if I remember right, so need a solid footing).

Should be doing that this week. I'll get some pics.

_________________
Image
www.MetroMPG.com ... www.ForkenSwift.com
... www.EcoModder.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 1:48 pm
Posts: 415
Location: portland oregon
I think they're 66lb. :shock:
At least mine will be :(
john :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 634
Location: Eastern Ontario
Each manufacturer is a little different, I guess, depending on how much lead content is in them.

Whatcha making?

_________________
Image
www.MetroMPG.com ... www.ForkenSwift.com
... www.EcoModder.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 1:48 pm
Posts: 415
Location: portland oregon
A three wheeler. Someday to be electric.
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php? ... e28850f44a

Or if that don't work, check out my album.
http://www.teamswift.net/album_personal ... e28850f44a

John :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:48 am
Posts: 10
That is a cool project. I hope you can post some pics when you are done.

___________________
Far Circuits - Download The Far Circuits Catalog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 634
Location: Eastern Ontario
Well, not much to report on actual "progress" of fabricating stuff. We're still officially stuck on the battery rack making step, waiting to get a welder so we can finish building & installing them.

Then again, who needs battery racks!

Just for kicks, on Friday we piled 36v worth of batteries inside the car (in the front & rear passenger footwells) hooked them all up and headed out of the garage for the ForkenSwift's first electric test drive:

Image

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDERyAILOak

Slow, but fun! Got some good reactions from people in the neighbourhood too.

_________________
Image
www.MetroMPG.com ... www.ForkenSwift.com
... www.EcoModder.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:37 pm
Posts: 1009
Location: West "By God" Virginia
looks, and "sounds" :lol: great
keep us posted


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:15 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:26 pm
Posts: 4111
Location: seattle
very well done video!! congrats on that ,even if the car aint done! :lol:

but i'm confused. the hood says pontiac, the tail panel says geo, and the hatch says suzuki!!! Laughing

but i guess for a internal combustion automobile now ran from electricity, it fits just fine!! :-P

_________________
GO FAST TURN LEFT!! IF YOU HAVE TO TURN RIGHT, YOU NEED A ROUND OF WEDGE!!!

here is my sig. karma if you look

Dattman wrote:
If you want big wheels buy a tractor...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 634
Location: Eastern Ontario
tuffcarguy wrote:
but i'm confused. the hood says pontiac, the tail panel says geo, and the hatch says suzuki!!! Laughing


Yeah, it's quite the mutt, eh?

Maybe it'll confuse the cops: "Just spotted a speeding blue Pontiac... no, wait, Geo. No, wait... Suzuki..."

Actually, the "speeding" scenario is very unlikely, since the car is no longer capable of breaking any speed limits around here.

I added 2 more batteries (total of 48v), and yesterday tried a "top speed" run. 47 km/h! (about 29 mph) :D Almost smoked one of the undersized cables on the battery pack trying, though.

It (barely) out-accelerated a 12 year old kid on a bicycle who was racing me. (And he was trying too - standing up on the pedals.)

Pretty much what I expected. But with proper cabling, and slightly less dead batteries, it'll be just fine for short trips around town - exactly what the design goal was.

_________________
Image
www.MetroMPG.com ... www.ForkenSwift.com
... www.EcoModder.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 4:23 pm
Posts: 200
Location: Breda, Netherlands
Awesome vid, love the comment from the repair guy :D

Hope you can get it to accelerate a bit faster, really like the project :thumb2:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:59 am 
Offline
Moderator & FAQ King
Moderator & FAQ King
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 6460
Location: Vancouver, BC
That's awesome. Love the video. :thumb2:

Instead of waiting on a welder, have you considered brazing the battery racks?

_________________
jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
...can you inlighten me about lihtan's
( miracle pour hole)
maybe a picture Thanks


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:52 pm
Posts: 634
Location: Eastern Ontario
Thanks, Lihtan.

Brazing - I thought about it, but wasn't sure if I could braze 1/8 inch angle iron.

My brother and I are looking at wire-feed & mig welders. He wants one for his business anyway.

_________________
Image
www.MetroMPG.com ... www.ForkenSwift.com
... www.EcoModder.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 122
Location: ga
just a thought but um i have seen on an electric drag car alternators mouted to a go kart style drive pulley on the back wheels. would it be benificial on this project or would the basic auto alternators not produce enough charge? just a thought and it be awesome the more length you could get out of it. good luck man.

_________________
people are stupid


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 91 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group