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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:34 pm 
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I've been accessing DTC's by putting a spare fuse in the protruding (diagnostic) socket in the under-dash fuse panel ... is this exactly the same as grounding the diagnostic terminal of the under-dash ALDL connector? ... that I've read about at ARRC online. I can't seem to find a pin-out diagram specific to my OBD I under-dash ALDL anywhere.

My under-dash ALDL is a 3-wire affair:

terminal 'A' has a black wire connected to it and is a dedicated Ground
terminal 'H' has a white wire connected to it and is dedicated 12V+ (BATT)
terminal 'M' has a purple wire connected to it and is supposedly an "8192 Baud Data" terminal

Can anyone comment on terminal 'M' ... is it the 'diagnostic terminal'? And, can it be safely (should it even be?) Grounded by inserting a paperclip into 'A' & 'M' to retrieve DTC flash codes, or, for any other purpose?

Thanks, FFF


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File comment: under-dash ALDL connector
my ALDL w. A, H & M only.jpg
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:29 pm 
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Firstly don't ground this connection, it should be protected but don't do it, it should be a serial data link that allows you to examine real time data from the ECU. If it is 8192 ALDL there are a number of software packages that can be used to extract the data. However it is possible that it is the Suzuki SDL interface, this seems to be a bit of a secret as its hardly ever referred to in Suzuki's literature. I have hacked this with a combination of datalogging the data transfer between the immobiliser and the ECU (on a late model Vitara) and by analysing the ECU code. If you want to access the ECU via this port then the first step is to buy an ALDL interface. Try an ALDL package and try my software or something like RS232 HexCom Tool.
There are a few sites that have information about the GM ALDL interface, if you want to know about the Suzuki SDL then my site is probably the only place to look:

http://www.rhinopower.org


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:01 pm 
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Rhinoman ... I see you've really been busy helping me ... thank you for that!

And thank you for the advice about avoiding grounding 'M'. I didn't do it and now won't.

I can't say for sure that my 'M' terminal is 8192 Baud Data ... I just found that designation on a drawing I pulled from: hxxp://www.aldlcable.com/

Would you expect to see the Suzuki SDL interface on a Pontiac Firefly? I would have thought GM would want some consistency for it's dealer technicians and their diagnostic tools ... then again, maybe not. My professional mechanic friend attached his scanner to the under-dash ALDL connector and couldn't get the scanner to work properly ... we just assumed something was up with the scanner or the connections. Now, I'm not so sure. Any way you can think of to quickly and easily determine exactly what I have ... short of going out and buying the ALDL interface, ect.?

I did look at your site ... very interesting stuff you're up to there.

If I do go to the trouble of getting an ALDL interface and some appropriate software, should / would I expect to see more specifically useful information about my current issue - a DTC 51?

Thanks, FFF


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:56 pm 
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From what I've heard Geo use a Suzuki (actualy DSM) ECU, Pontiac branded vehicles may well be the same. If its a Denso or DSM ECU then its likely to be SDL, you can also get some idea from the processor type and crystal frequency.
If its SDL then the only commercial interface that I know of is the Tech2 scanner.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:58 am 
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My "Suzuki" scan tool works in Geo Metros. It's a Vetronix Tech1A, packaged for Suzuki. I assume GM dealers had the appropriate cartridge for the Metro/Firefly/Sprint/Tracker/etc.

From what I've seen, the SOHC ECUs are Denso and the DOHC are Hitachi.

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1994 Metro - MPH project (getting a DOHC G13B)
1994 Metro - MPG project (getting an XFi G10)
1992 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1991 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1990 Swift - Parts car
1997 Metro - Parts car (gone)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:15 pm 
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Rhinoman wrote:
From what I've heard Geo use a Suzuki (actualy DSM) ECU, Pontiac branded vehicles may well be the same. If its a Denso or DSM ECU then its likely to be SDL, you can also get some idea from the processor type and crystal frequency.
If its SDL then the only commercial interface that I know of is the Tech2 scanner.


Hi Rhinoman, I managed to stumble across a link to this thread while looking for a method to code read/live scan Suzuki Swift GTi's, there are 3 in my family alone, and I do regular service for another dozen or so. I think it would be an asset for me to be able to read the ECUs and monitor vital bits of info. I know I would need to get the hardware to connect to my pc and run your software. do you think that THIS would work as an interface? The ECU's we use are made by Hitachi and have this label

Image

The insides are like this;

Image

And the EPROM;

Image

I'm very interested in working with you to find a solution to this!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:14 pm 
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I sent them this question

Quote:
Hi
I am looking to use this interface with a Suzuki ECU, it has a very similar serial port to an ALDL. Can you please tell me what the switching thresholds of this interface are?
Cheers
James


The Suzuki interface is not TTL compatible so logic '0' threshold generally needs to be at 1.4V or thereabouts.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:35 pm 
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lol, so I guess something custom made is needed to suit the Suzuki data then. Rats! I'm not that well versed in circuit design to know what to build :(

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:52 pm 
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Several people have ALDL cables working with the Suzuki ECU so don't rule it out. There were a few designs published on the web that used just a couple of transistors, the voltage threshold on these was too low. Its quite likely that that interface will be OK but its best to check before spending any money. A USB interface is the way to go because they don't usually have any problems with the odd data rates required by the Suzuki ECU.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:19 pm 
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Rhinoman wrote:
Several people have ALDL cables working with the Suzuki ECU so don't rule it out. There were a few designs published on the web that used just a couple of transistors, the voltage threshold on these was too low. Its quite likely that that interface will be OK but its best to check before spending any money. A USB interface is the way to go because they don't usually have any problems with the odd data rates required by the Suzuki ECU.


do you have any versions in mind that I can try? even a schematic of one that I can build? :alien:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:48 pm 
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I'm using an ALDL cable from TunerTools - but my GV has the 16 pin J1962 connector - rather than the 12-pin connector which I think you need. TunerTools does have cables with both connector styles, so you could try getting one from them.

For schematics - use Google - there are several floating around, I'll try to post a couple of links when I get a chance, and there is also one on the Rhinopower website

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:15 am 
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I got a reply:

Quote:
1.2V input switching threshold... I think.
/stefan



That should work if hes correct, a schmitt trigger input i more reliable. If you have the ALDL connector then your best bet is probbaly to get an OBD2 (J1962) connector from a scrap car and use an interface designed for that, the ALDL connectors are much more expensive. I have made my own USB interface that fits into the backshell of a J1962 connector, I need to tidy up the design and make a couple of corrections before I publish the final version.

Image


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:25 am 
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http://www.tunertools.com/ALDL_Cables.asp

I'm using the fourth cable down - OBD2-aldlobd2u - which is essentially an ALDL-to-USB cable wired to a 16 pin J1962 OBD-II style connector, if your car has the 16 pin connector this should work, if you have the 12 pin connector pictured earlier in the thread, then the third cable down - OBD2-aldlobd1u - should work for you.

I've just discovered that my Swift has this connector, but I need to find where (if anywhere) the other end goes to because this is a carburetted car and I'm pretty certain there's no ECU in it.

Ok - took awhile to locate it - http://www.suzuki-forums.com/attachments/suzuki-sidekick-escudo-vitara-geo-tracker/7371d1241390627-aldl-connector-aldl-jtgh1.jpg

This is supposedly the interface being used by Jerry (jtgh or kick-fix), the original is here - I was going to build one of these, but went with the TunerTools one instead.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:56 am 
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Jerry is using the schematic above but he has a special serial card that allows him to communicate at the correct baud rate. I don't recommend that circuit because a 78L05 isn't suitable for an automotive application, it doesn't have adequate high frequency decoupling and I don't believe that there is sufficient isolation between the car supply and the PC. There is a lot of noise and high voltage spikes on the cars supply and its not a good idea to connect a PC/laptop to it.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:57 am 
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fordem wrote:
http://www.tunertools.com/ALDL_Cables.asp
I've just discovered that my Swift has this connector, but I need to find where (if anywhere) the other end goes to because this is a carburetted car and I'm pretty certain there's no ECU in it.


Curious


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:59 am 
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fordem wrote:
http://www.tunertools.com/ALDL_Cables.asp

I'm using the fourth cable down - OBD2-aldlobd2u - which is essentially an ALDL-to-USB cable wired to a 16 pin J1962 OBD-II style connector, if your car has the 16 pin connector this should work, if you have the 12 pin connector pictured earlier in the thread, then the third cable down - OBD2-aldlobd1u - should work for you.

I've just discovered that my Swift has this connector, but I need to find where (if anywhere) the other end goes to because this is a carburetted car and I'm pretty certain there's no ECU in it.

Ok - took awhile to locate it - http://www.suzuki-forums.com/attachments/suzuki-sidekick-escudo-vitara-geo-tracker/7371d1241390627-aldl-connector-aldl-jtgh1.jpg

This is supposedly the interface being used by Jerry (jtgh or kick-fix), the original is here - I was going to build one of these, but went with the TunerTools one instead.


the third interface cable is 'not currently available'. It looks like I might get better luck building that circuit yoou posted tho :huh: lol Abd The Suzuki-forums link you posted, I cannot view it because i'm not a member. I'll sign up and take a look tho.

EDIT:

ooops, I see that you actually posted the circuit diagram from the Suzuki-firums link, lol ...I guess I can't be a member on too many Suzuki Forums :alien:

...I will try to make up that circuit and use Rhinoman's software package to connect. oOne thing tho, can I connect directly to the pins without the plastic connector (for testing purposes) untill I know that it works before investing in a proper ALDL connector?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:13 am 
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Rhinoman wrote:
Jerry is using the schematic above but he has a special serial card that allows him to communicate at the correct baud rate. I don't recommend that circuit because a 78L05 isn't suitable for an automotive application, it doesn't have adequate high frequency decoupling and I don't believe that there is sufficient isolation between the car supply and the PC. There is a lot of noise and high voltage spikes on the cars supply and its not a good idea to connect a PC/laptop to it.



arrite, noted. you said earlier that the first link i supplied you for another ALDL interface 'should' work for me tho? http://www.enghmotors.com/cable/default.aspx

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:40 pm 
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swifted - try www.aldlcable.com - they have a "barewire" ALDL-USB cable in addition to the 12-pin & 16-pin ones. You could also try calling or emailing Lloyd Barnhill at tunertools, I think he runs both sites, and I've found that he'll go out of his way to help - he may tell you that the cable won't work on a Suzuki - he and I did have that discussion, but if you insist he will sell it to you.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:57 pm 
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Swifted wrote:

...I will try to make up that circuit and use Rhinoman's software package to connect. oOne thing tho, can I connect directly to the pins without the plastic connector (for testing purposes) untill I know that it works before investing in a proper ALDL connector?[/quote]


The most basic check is to ensure that you have 5V on pin M with the ECU powered.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:27 pm 
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Rhinoman wrote:
Swifted wrote:

...I will try to make up that circuit and use Rhinoman's software package to connect. oOne thing tho, can I connect directly to the pins without the plastic connector (for testing purposes) untill I know that it works before investing in a proper ALDL connector?



The most basic check is to ensure that you have 5V on pin M with the ECU powered.[/quote]

will that be a continuous 5 Volt? I will check it in the morning and let you know.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:10 pm 
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Rhinoman wrote:
fordem wrote:
http://www.tunertools.com/ALDL_Cables.asp
I've just discovered that my Swift has this connector, but I need to find where (if anywhere) the other end goes to because this is a carburetted car and I'm pretty certain there's no ECU in it.


Curious


Well - without tearing the car & harness apart - there's no sure fire way to determine where this goes on my car. The colors match the original post with one exception, the M wire is not purple, but purple with a white tracer - I do have the ground connector and an always hot +12V and the M wire does not appear to be connected to anything (why am I not surprised) - the three wires join a fatter bundle routed along the inner edge of the under dash crossmember, and to follow them further would be quite challenging.

Over the years I have been using a Mk2 FSM to service the vehicle (which is a Mk3) and this connector is not shown in the FSM, I did track down a Mk3 GTi manual and the schematics show the M wire as going directly to the ECM, so I have to assume that somewhere under the dash is another connector, just hanging there, and this wire runs to it.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:00 am 
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I would imagine that the loom will be a generic Swift loom. Could it be that the M wire is there to interface to an auto transmission controller? On later models, the ECU, airbags and immobiliser are all on that same wire, autos are rare over here so I don't have any way of checking (I've never even seen an auto Zuk).


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:05 pm 
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I've seen auto Suzukis - quite a few here, but, the FSM I have, which does cover the auto tranny, including the electronic troubleshooting, does not mention that connector - as for the rest of the stuff, immobilizers & air bags - what's that ?!? ;)

Just kidding - local law does not mandate any of that stuff - and so we generally don't see it on new cars, and this car, which I've had from new, has never had them - on the other hand, this country like many of the old British commonwealth countries drives on the left like you do, and more importantly - like Japan does, so the majority of our cars are used JDM, and we get whatever Japanese law requires.

I hung a meter off the connector and there is no voltage on that wire and it has a very high impedance to ground, suggesting it's not connected.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:32 pm 
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Swifted wrote:
do you have any versions in mind that I can try? even a schematic of one that I can build? :alien:


Rhinoman has just published his design - you might like to take a look at the rhinopower page.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:03 pm 
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fordem wrote:
Swifted wrote:
do you have any versions in mind that I can try? even a schematic of one that I can build? :alien:


Rhinoman has just published his design - you might like to take a look at the rhinopower page.


Thanks for the heads up! I just had a look and I think I can build the circuit. I found a 12 pin to USB interface on Amazon, and I think this Interface was referenced earlier in this discussion. I'm wondering if I would be able to use this.

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