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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:44 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Tacoma, WA
A couple months ago, my 93 ran totally out of coolant due to a small hole at the filler neck of my radiator. The car totally stalled out. I had 50/50 antifreeze with me and after it cooled down, I refilled it and after more than normal cranking, I got it running again and got home after getting another bottle of coolant and stopping several times to check it. After finding the reason for the loss of coolant, I patched it up with some JB Weld Waterweld and it has done the trick. It no longer leaks and there has been no overheating since. The car still runs fine.

However lately (the past week) since it has gotten much colder, the car doesn't hardly warm up unless I am in constant stop and go traffic, where it's not getting a lot of cold air blowing on the radiator. Even when driving at 25-35mph around town, the temperature stays cold. I can't get any heat out of it. This seems to be a symptom of the thermostat.

Since it's not an expensive repair, I will be fixing it ASAP, but I wondered... do the thermostats on these 1.0 3cyls stay open once overheated under that condition or is it totally random whether or not that happens?

My fuel economy hasn't seemed to suffer any as it could from staying cold. I am pretty lead footed in the city when taking off from stops but I don't drive "spirited". I get around 29-30'ish which is also what I get on the highway at about 55-60mph, but it is pretty hilly around here, and that's the MPG I was getting prior to the overheat. I have been tracking it on Fuelly.

Mind you, I have no prior history on the engine or transmission and the odometer reads almost 198k (w/ an automatic) so I'm not complaining about the MPG, even if the hwy mpg seems a bit low.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:24 pm 
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Location: Alberta, Canada
You are on the right track. Sometimes thermostats will stay open after an overheat, and certain ones are meant to do that to try to ensure that engine stays cool as a fail safe. I feel that aftermarket ones are not as good quality as Oem ones, but are cheaper. Consider going to a new factory one for the price to ensure a good repair, but any new one will generally work.

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1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:49 pm 
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Location: Tacoma, WA
Can you buy them at Suzuki or GM dealers still or is this something you have to buy online? I want to get this fixed in the next week or so when I drop it off for an oil change.

I would do it myself but draining fluids while parked in a city owned parking lot (which is what is there for this apt building) is kind of a no-no. I can get away with replacing door broken handles, changing bulbs, checking the air filter and fluid levels, but not oil changes and coolant drains.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:15 pm 
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Location: walsh,alberta,canada
any decent auto parts store should be able to get one for you. 180* is good for summer, may not have the heat you desire for winter....anywhere from 192* or 195* should give you lots of heat. if you can do a good flush of the heating/cooling system that helps a lot. try to flush the heater core separate, if possible. it is amazing how much crud is in these coolant systems!

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89 1.0 turbo firefly
2"exhaust,no cats/resonator
3 tech 6*gear
3 tech turbo grind cam
3 tech cylinder head/w/port,polish,blend,oversized s/s valves
gti brake swap
89 white gti twincam....need I say more?
92 metro aka ''blue lump of coal''
92 white metro lsi vert
91 blue chevy sprint (gas sipper)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:44 pm
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Location: Tacoma, WA
180 is fine for me year round. I'm not that picky about having a lot of heat in winter.

I'll see what Napa can get. These are what the website lists for higher quality ones, but they say to call to check for availability.


$24.99
Thermostat - OE Specified Temp 180 Degree F / 82 C
Part Number: ATM 1543601
Product Line: Altrom Imports
IMPORTANT INFO: Tama Brand - Tama is an OEM Manufacturer

$8.89
Thermostat - OE Specified Temp 190 Degree F / 88 C
Part Number: ATM 1543602
Product Line: Altrom Imports
IMPORTANT INFO: Tama Brand - Tama is an OEM Manufacturer

$9.69
Thermostat - Premium
Part Number: THM 531080
Product Line: NAPA Thermostats
IMPORTANT INFO: 180 Degrees, OEM Specified Temperature

$7.99
Thermostat - Premium
Part Number: THM 531090
Product Line: NAPA Thermostats
IMPORTANT INFO: 195 Degrees,Alternate Temperature

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:44 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Tacoma, WA
Oh, and another thing. Some have an extra hole with a dangley piece (the $25, 180F one listed above):
Image


While others listed as being compatible do not (the $10, 180F one above):
Image


It seems as if the CHEAPER ones lack it. From what I have read, it's kind if important to have it.

If the photo is accurate on Amazon, they list a BECK/ARNLEY Part # 1430694 (180F) for under $10 w/ free Prime shipping and it shows it WITH one:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:10 am 
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Location: vancouver island, canada
That helps with any air in the system. Personally and from a parts technician point. Get one with it. And dont go cheap. Cheap causes more problems down the road.

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92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:40 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:44 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Tacoma, WA
Right, figured that out about the air after my previous post.

I don't like to go with cheap quality auto parts, especially if I'm paying labor to have something done. Trying to saving $20 on a vital part is stupid when I'll be paying a mechanic to do the work.

It's one thing to patch a very small hole in the top plastic radiator with JB Weld Waterweld, it's another to put an "economy" thermostat in. I can raise the hood and eyeball the waterweld epoxy repair in a matter of a minute. Not so much with a thermostat.

I may just put off driving it any until I schedule with a shop to get this fixed since I read that it "can" cause excessive engine wear due to cylinder wall washing of too much fuel. Although as I said, I don't seem to have a problem with my MPG dropping, although I guess 30-31 at hwy speeds might be due to the thermostat.

But until the past week or so, I didn't really noticed it running extra cold, coinciding with the lower temps that have since set in. Prior to that, it was running warmer when the temperatures were warmer. However, it never gets higher than 1/2 way up so it's not overheating and I know the gauge is working properly.

Poor heating in the past week despite a lot of driving (more than usual for me) is what made me pay attention. It would go from being mid way in stand-still traffic on the highway (an accident) to being cold once I got moving again. Same with city driving. It warms up when at long traffic lights but once I'm going 25-35mph, it gets cold again. Before it dropped into the 30s-40s in the daytime, I didn't really need it when it was 50-something out and had on a light jacket.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:50 am 
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Location: vancouver island, canada
Your not much further south then me. And I had the same problem once. Tried 3 stats from crapco and it never got above 1/4. And I would freeze me ass off in winter. Get a oem one and never had that problem again. Sits at the 1/2 and blowes nice warm air. Funny how we complain about freezing when it barley gets below 32° around here.

_________________
92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:44 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Tacoma, WA
I can't located an OEM one except online which I dislike. If it's somehow wrong, I'm screwed having to ship it back. I ordered this one from Napa, due for pickup tomorrow after 11am:

$24.99
Thermostat - OE Specified Temp 180 Degree F / 82 C
Part Number: ATM 1543601
Product Line: Altrom Imports
IMPORTANT INFO: Tama Brand - Tama is an OEM Manufacturer

The small repair shop that is short walk from home quoted me about $190 to change the thermostat, flush the cooling system and do an oil change, but it may come out more likely $155-$160 since I forgot to mention I have my own oil and filter. I asked last week and they said $15 for an oil change with your own filter/oil. They are super busy today after the new year, so I said I'd see about next week.

I figure a cooling system flush isn't a bad idea since it's already being hauled in for other cooling sysem work. Maybe that will also improve vent heating if the heater core is a bit clogged up.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:56 pm 
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Location: vancouver island, canada
$190. Thats almost highway robbery. That altrom one is a good one. But shit. $190. That job shoukd not cost more then $100 tops. And thats with them supplying the parts. Its a 5 min job to change it and 10 min to flush it.

_________________
92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:23 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:27 pm
Posts: 824
Location: walsh,alberta,canada
I usually pay anywhere from $8 to $15 for a t-stat around here. you can always drill a tiny hole in the t-stat ( very tiny!) so it acts the same as one of those with the bleeder valve. not to big of a hole, or you lose any heat you were hoping to gain. been there, done that :roll:
should take no more than a half- hour for a shop to install a t-stat, flush and refill the coolant system. no more than 4 liters of coolant (50/50) should be needed. make sure they flush out the overflow tank, or that could be done easily enough yourself. (the tank just pops up and out)
I can do a t-stat in 10-15 minutes (quick change, no flush)
or a complete job, where I dump a/freeze, fill with water and flushing agent, go for a good drive, then let it cool down, sometimes letting it sit for a few hours.....then use LOTS of water to flush it all out, remove hose connections to flush out heater core, clean t-stat housing, new t-stat, gasket (I use a small amount of silicone) and refill rad with pure a/freeze.

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89 1.0 turbo firefly
2"exhaust,no cats/resonator
3 tech 6*gear
3 tech turbo grind cam
3 tech cylinder head/w/port,polish,blend,oversized s/s valves
gti brake swap
89 white gti twincam....need I say more?
92 metro aka ''blue lump of coal''
92 white metro lsi vert
91 blue chevy sprint (gas sipper)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:44 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Tacoma, WA
Like I said earlier in the thread, I live in an apartment with a city owned lot where I park. I can't go draining and flushing fluids. I like not having to pay for any home maintenance, but it means I have to pay a mechanic for major maintenance and repair.

I once had a house with a 2 car garage in another state and it was constant stress, work and maintenance. I'll take paying a mechanic every so often for work over worrying about roof leaks, yard/house flooding and noisy hick neighbors throwing beer cans and bottles in my yard for my expensive riding mower to hit.

If I drive 15-20 miles away, I could rent a garage bay at $25/hr without a lift -or- $35/hr with a lift. I wouldn't have a water hose and such to do it either most likely. I suppose in 2 hours, taking my time, I could have it all done but it's a huge hassle. I'd have to go buy a drain pan for the coolant and store the pan after. I'd have to find a place to dispose of the flushed muck too.

If it was brake work or something like that, I'd probably just rent a garage bay since there's no fluids to capture and dispose of. Engine, transmission and differential oil is easy to dispose of at auto parts stores. Antifreeze is much harder to properly dispose of. Sometimes you can get garages to take it for you, if you only have a reasonable amount such as what one car would hold.

Maybe somewhere out there I could find a lower priced shop but is it worth the hassle? The one I am going to take it to is a 7 minute walk to/from home.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:49 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:19 pm
Posts: 344
Location: vancouver island, canada
I just use a gallon ice cream bucket.

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92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:43 am 
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Location: Tacoma, WA
redneck racing wrote:
I just use a gallon ice cream bucket.


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That's besides the point.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:20 am 
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Location: walsh,alberta,canada
it all depends what people are comfortable with...if you don't have the space (or are allowed to) do major repairs, then finding a TRUSYWORTHY shop is very important. try telling the shop that its a Suzuki, not a geo.... :-P people have such a hate for the geo metro, but if I mention Suzuki swift or Pontiac firefly or chevy sprint their tone completely changes :huh:
and if you supply the parts, you only pay for labour, not any mark-up on new parts they would sell you. ask for the old parts back. even if you drive down the alley and throw them away, at least you know the repair was made. put random paint marks on the parts/ heads of the bolts if you really want to see if said part was removed and replaced.

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89 1.0 turbo firefly
2"exhaust,no cats/resonator
3 tech 6*gear
3 tech turbo grind cam
3 tech cylinder head/w/port,polish,blend,oversized s/s valves
gti brake swap
89 white gti twincam....need I say more?
92 metro aka ''blue lump of coal''
92 white metro lsi vert
91 blue chevy sprint (gas sipper)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:44 pm
Posts: 81
Location: Tacoma, WA
Geo doesn't have much hate around here... probably because there are so many. Not just Metros but also Trackers and Prizms.

The shop I am going to use has lots of good reviews on Yelp and a few good (but 3-4 years old) on Google. There's only one bad review I can find and that person was angry that the shop wanted their engine steam cleaned before attempting to try to find an oil leak. Then the shop was all booked up by the time they got that done or some such thing, so they went to another shop instead. They were trying to have everything done within the same day it seems which seems like asking for trouble, but maybe that's just me. They made an appointment but were turned away because of how yucky their engine was in trying to find the leak. By the time they returned with the cleaned engine, the shop was busy with other work because they missed their appointment from having to go get the engine cleaned.

Sounds sorta like my car, except it's not leaking. Last oil change, the shop I had it at warned me of a "massive" oil leak, but it's just crud from in the past when it DID leak. The lady I bought it from said she had an oil leak fixed and it doesn't loose oil now... or at least, no more than perhaps a few drops, nothing noticeable on the dipstick. I guess I should consider having my engine steam cleaned so I don't have shops warning me about "massive oil leaks" that don't exist anymore. Plus it'll show if a leak does start again.

Back on the subject of thermostats -- I called around trying to find a Suzuki parts dealer in the area but I gave up after 2 calls. Both were listed on Suzuki's official website as being parts sellers but they no longer do. A third one I drove past and it's now just a plastic-wrappped sign over the old Suzuki dealership sign for a "no credit needed" kind of used dealer. I went on down to the Chevy dealer and checked with their parts dept. The 93's thermostat is discontinued with GM, so aftermarket (or maybe NOS Suzuki) is perhaps all you can get? So then I called confirmed with Napa the one I wanted was available and I ordered it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:49 pm 
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Location: Tacoma, WA
On, and on the subject of bringing your own parts -- some shops will charge you more labor if you do that and they won't honor their work. I don't think the shop I'm taking my Metro to is one since he didn't seem to say so.

However a shop I used in another state for other several vehicles and a shop I consider very trustworthy, has stated they charge higher labor if you bring your own parts and they don't honor warranty because: 1) they don't make a buck on the parts 2) they don't know where you got the parts from or their quality or condition of the parts you supply.

They prefer to order parts themselves so then if something goes wrong, it's entirely their fault or the part THEY supplied. If you bring in a new or rebuilt water pump you bought online that's actually bad somehow, that ends up being YOUR fault and they aren't responsible for it. But if they order a rebuild water pump, install it and it's bad, that's their fault for sourcing a bad part.

However, the shop I am using... they quoted about $12 for the thermostat, which sounds about like the Napa "Premium" Thermostat. I told the guy I ordered a more expensive $25 one from Napa, the most expensive/highest quality one I can find, since OEM is no longer an option locally, and he took no issue with that. Thermostats are roughly along the same line as other "consumable" parts though, like filters. I think they should probably just be routinely replaced every few years.

The part itself isn't expensive and the labor cost isn't really THAT bad for such an important engine part. If you take your car in for an antifreeze change and flush anyway as you should every couple years, it's probably not a bad idea to have the thermostat replaced.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:52 pm 
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Location: Tacoma, WA
Here is the Altrom/Tama thermostat from Napa. Box shows Tama part # W44SB-82. Made In Japan. :thumbsup:

The gasket wasn't included but it was only about $1 at Napa and they had it in stock.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:08 am 
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Location: vancouver island, canada
i have always liked the altrom parts. as a parts technician i always try to get the best part for my customers. if i can get an altrom for around the same price as a "stock" replacement i will.

_________________
92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:06 am 
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Location: columbus, ohio
out of all of this i have only one comment.

what some guys refer to as a "bleeder hole" is actually far from that. the hole has a little rivet installed in it which rattles as flow is forced through the gaps. the rattling translates as a mechanical action which helps to chatter the t-stat into an open position aided by the spring.

it has zero to do with bypassing coolant and everything to do with a mechanical aid to help the spring open the t-stat at it's calibrated point.

once the flow begins through the larger passage, the rivet stops rattling around. when the t-stat closes down again, the rattling starts up all over.

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:57 pm 
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Location: Tacoma, WA
My understanding is that the hole/rivet helps to (also?) bleed air from the system automatically, if installed correctly with the rivet on top.

Looking back at Fuelly, maybe my MPG did drop after the overheat. No matter. It's going to get a new thermostat so in 2-3 months, I'll know if my MPG is better or not since I don't drive a great deal, for the most part.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:38 pm 
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Hate to argue with t3. But...


Many Japanese and American car models now use the offset flange thermostat design as original equipment. These thermostats are equipped with a jiggle pin valve in the flange. This valve prevents air lock from occurring in the cooling system by allowing trapped air to escape while also reducing coolant leakage through the flange. Air lock and leakage hinder the operation of a thermostat during engine warm up. The offset design with the jiggle pin valve helps the engine to reach its designated operating temperature more quickly and precisely.

seeing how I can't fingers my parts school textbook I got that from starts Web site.

_________________
92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:02 pm 
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Location: Tacoma, WA
Picked up the car a bit ago and it's definitely heating up faster now. It's obvious they did remove and reinstall the housing. There was RTV sticking out before and now there isn't since they used a proper gasket.

However they most likely DIDN'T do the flush. When questioned about it (after closing time) the lady called up someone at home and asked if it was a "cleaning flush" (my term), and he stated to her they aren't "EPA Certified" to do cleaning flushes and that he drained and replaced.

She then asked someone who was still at the shop and described a flush as being running water through it. However, it's not on the work order/receipt so it's questionable if they even did it. I said to him "well she said it was drained and replaced" and he said "yeah". Well, that's not a flush then! I wasn't going to stand there and argue about it since they apparently didn't charge me for it.

They are an OK shop but they seem a little scatter brained, perhaps due to being so small and being mostly family run. And maybe it's because I didn't talk to the main boss man (the owner?) which is who I spoke to before.

I guess I'll have to just take it to another shop that actually does real flushes and pay them since it's good preventative maintenance to get grit and such out.

One more question: The car makes noticeable gurgling water sounds which an be heard inside the car after being shut off. it also spits out from the overflow bottle hose. It was doing that and losing some coolant to a point if I tried to top if off at the radiator (rather than the overflow) PRIOR to the new thermostat. Is that due to air in the system? There was some that had come out from the overflow bottle during the short time it had been started idled and then driven about 1/2 mile home.

I keep bottles of antifreeze and oil in the car at all times anyway, so I will keep an eye on it and top it off at the overflow bottle as needed.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:28 pm 
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Location: walsh,alberta,canada
bad head gasket? remove the rad cap (cold) and start the engine, then look in the rad cap hole,and watch for bubbles in the coolant, or if its really bad it will spew out coolant...maybe needs a new rad cap?

_________________
89 1.0 turbo firefly
2"exhaust,no cats/resonator
3 tech 6*gear
3 tech turbo grind cam
3 tech cylinder head/w/port,polish,blend,oversized s/s valves
gti brake swap
89 white gti twincam....need I say more?
92 metro aka ''blue lump of coal''
92 white metro lsi vert
91 blue chevy sprint (gas sipper)


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