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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:34 am 
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Jep I know but if this is the case you defiantly took the wrong turbo. Ok I’m more an engineer than a tuner.
Just to give an idée what a standard camshaft dos with 11PSI. Here is my dyno run. :-P
Please do not look at the AFR. This picture is taken during a dyno run with untuned map.
The gap in de line is the clutch that cannot handle the torque due to coolant before we take this run. :shock:


Image

Looks more like db used a 260 grind cam. db knows the answer I think. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 1:49 pm 
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210 HP @ 11 psi sounds more than good. Is that on stock 10:1 CR ?

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 4:50 am 
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So check this out.. I was going through the pages of raw data, and i converted all the kpa manifold pressure to psi, and plotted it in excel... I have had 12psi on my mind, because thats what the math wiz running my dyno pulls converted in his head, when in reality i was seeing a max of 14psi.. Heres the chart, let me know what you think


Image


rvengineering wrote:
Jep I know but if this is the case you defiantly took the wrong turbo. Ok I’m more an engineer than a tuner.


RV.. I'm not sure what your basing this statement on.. "Definitly" is a very strong word. Of course there is always going to be a better turbo, but in my opinion the 04' 14-t served well. If anything I believe my increase in boost late in the run is due to creep. I haven't adjusted the wastegate arm since i bolted the turbo on last august.. and I'm sure there's room for fine tuning. I don't want to sound defensive, i'm also curious why my boost curve never flattens out.. And if 14psi is the flat point, why is it not showing up until nearly 6k.. comments/suggestions welcome as usual.

dave

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 6:26 am 
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See ? The torque/power curve keeps increasing along with boost. That's exactly what I was talking about.

Dave, I think you can improve your boost curve just by tuning, ie a more aggressive spark timing at low revs. A bit more base spark advance. It might be many other things, even turbo size (I don't know the turbo) or cam timing.

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 8:42 am 
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db don’t get me wrong it’s your car not mine and if you want a big turbo that spins up @ 6000RPM or so I have nothing against that. :wink:
Still I like to know are you using stock cams? Something tells me that if a standard engine gives 100 Hp on the wheels that you can not run the same engine with a turbo on 14PSI @ 200 Hp on the wheels. :?
According to my calculations are you using a 260 cam or so with tops out on torque @ 5000RPM or so, giving 120Hp @ the wheels on a N/A engine.
So whit 14 PSI you got almost double intake pressure and let’s say a 15% efficiency reduction due to the turbocharger OK that’s when it is a big one. :wink:

I did some experimenting whit ignition timing. Advancing the timing results in more torque and detonation of course. In some cases advancing the ignition timing can even lead to les boost.
The problem is that we use turbo’s that spin up from 2000 RPM on hitting max boost @ 3600RPM max so we only can do this below 3600RPM.
The funny thing is that the power output does not chance a lot @ low RPM. EGT on advancing gets lower same as fuel combustion.

Retarding can give very good boost @ low RPM but no power will be there. EGT goes over the top buts that’s no wonder.

Maybe this will help a bit if you can compare the ignition timing.
Image

My boost curve with the TD04H-13C-6CM2 turbo.
Image

What I have noticed during the dyno runs that if you raze the pressure the torque curve becomes more flat. @ 0.4 bar boost the torque peaks and drops very hard after that. @ 0.8 bar we run 150Hp up to the red line and the torque drops slowly over RPM.
Strange engine the G13B :razz:

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 9:08 am 
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Why aren't you running vacuum advance ?

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 10:47 am 
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Vacuum advance? or do you mean boost retard? I pull .4 degrees of timing per psi.. my timing i set pretty aggressive at 11 deg btdc. My cam is a 340 lift.

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 11:03 am 
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Caaarlo wrote:
Why aren't you running vacuum advance ?

Do you mean my timing map????

This ECU thing works with absolute pressure if that is what you mean with vacuum advance?

100Kpa absolute is atmospheric pressure or zero BAR. So 200Kpa is 1 BAR boost or close to 15PSI.:wink:

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Last edited by rvengineering on Thu May 25, 2006 11:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 11:12 am 
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db wrote:
Vacuum advance? or do you mean boost retard? I pull .4 degrees of timing per psi.. my timing i set pretty aggressive at 11 deg btdc.


0.4 deg only? this is a bit extreme. What threshold is your BTM set at? I don't think you should go less than 0.75deg. This will give you a better safety margin for occasional bad gas, hot temperatures, etc.


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 11:41 am 
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rvengineering wrote:
Caaarlo wrote:
Why aren't you running vacuum advance ?

Do you mean my timing map????

This ECU thing works with absolute pressure if that is what you mean with vacuum advance?

100Kpa absolute is atmospheric pressure or zero BAR. So 200Kpa is 1 BAR boost or close to 15PSI.:wink:


Yes, I am talking about your map. Below 100 KPa is vaccuum, you should advance timing the same amount you retarded above 100Kpa, otherwise you might foul your plugs and leave too much carbon deposits.

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 12:18 pm 
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Caaarlo wrote:
rvengineering wrote:
Caaarlo wrote:
Why aren't you running vacuum advance ?

Do you mean my timing map????

This ECU thing works with absolute pressure if that is what you mean with vacuum advance?

100Kpa absolute is atmospheric pressure or zero BAR. So 200Kpa is 1 BAR boost or close to 15PSI.:wink:


Yes, I am talking about your map. Below 100 KPa is vaccuum, you should advance timing the same amount you retarded above 100Kpa, otherwise you might foul your plugs and leave too much carbon deposits.


No Sorry we don’t have this problem. AFR 14:1 to 14.7:1 and EGT @ 600 to 650 degrees centigrade. We don’t want a retard on the ignition timing for fuel economy and it works. On the Swift engine it runs 11:1 Km/liter and on the SJ4.13 it runs 9:1Km/liter. Hi way use of course. We have no intention feeding the CAT. :cat: He is not home. :razz:

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Last edited by rvengineering on Thu May 25, 2006 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 12:38 pm 
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You could have even better mileage by advancing spark below 100 KPA. The stock G13B spark map has about 35 deg at WOT above 4000 RPM (~100KPA) and as much as 51 deg on highest vacuum ... or 30 KPA.

And this is for 10:1 CR, so You could advance it even more...

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 1:26 pm 
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Caaarlo wrote:
You could have even better mileage by advancing spark below 100 KPA. The stock G13B spark map has about 35 deg at WOT above 4000 RPM (~100KPA) and as much as 51 deg on highest vacuum ... or 30 KPA.

And this is for 10:1 CR, so You could advance it even more...


Woops sorry I mistaken advance of retard. :givebeer: :drunk: Yep I will try that. Normally we run 70 to 90Kpa and did not tune the ignition map on lower load only on 100Kmh to 140Kmh. Al do 49 advance up to 51 I think the outcome is minor.
The funny thing is that the non turbo engine of vloerdweil did not like 46 advance. I took the map back to 40 advance on the 8.5:1CR engine and than it run like a mad man up to 100Kpa.
With the compressor on he was running 11:1 Km/L on the hi way, is that bad?:ez_roll:

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 7:49 pm 
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rvengineering wrote:
With the compressor on he was running 11:1 Km/L


What figure is that?


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 8:02 pm 
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11:1 = 11/1 = 11 :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 2:54 am 
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Jardamuth wrote:
rvengineering wrote:
With the compressor on he was running 11:1 Km/L


What figure is that?

Well you get 1100000mm per 1000cc of fuel. That’s 6.835083Mile on 0.2641721 gallon. LOL :huh: :ez_lol:

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 3:01 am 
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Is 11 KM/L about 31mpg? If so, that isn't bad. I was getting about 28mpg with my turbo setup with a piggyback and MSD BTM but this was in town driving. MPG would be better on motorway/highway driving, the LINK piggyback I have makes for easy tuning/adjusting when driving at a constant speed to get the perfect cruising a/f ratio for fuel economy.

11 KM is 6.8miles
4.54 litres (Imperial) or 3.78 litres (US) is 1 gallon
6.8 miles x 4.54 litres - 31mpg


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 5:50 am 
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Jardamuth wrote:
0.4 deg only? this is a bit extreme. What threshold is your BTM set at? I don't think you should go less than 0.75deg. This will give you a better safety margin for occasional bad gas, hot temperatures, etc.


Keep in mind i don't have a threshold setting on my btm...So it starts pulling timing as soon as i start seeing boost. This is why i was running a bit more aggressive btm setting. Even with this into account, its still running close to the edge, i know, but i'm confident its tuned well enough to handle it. And on the mpg subject, i was pulling 30-35 mpg on the drive form california to nebraska (1600miles), which at that time i was running 175hp.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:58 pm 
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Hey db i just read through this topic of yours.

quite nice it also looks as if we're both almost equal in set up

The only thats differnt is the following

you have an O-rings block i don't
You have TTech fuel rail i have a stocker (the big one)
Your running 14psi i'm running 17psi
Your on piggybacks i'm on a standalone
Your at 201whp i'm at 203whp
Your at 152 torque i'm at 182 torque
Your using 360cc mitsibishi injectors i'm using 365cc toyota's

I think i'm going to be in close contact with you so that we can both develop these two cars to obtain bout 225-250whp ... what do ya say ?

:D

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:55 pm 
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I am heading your same way too. I have bought a set of vitara pistons for my car just because I found them cheap.

I was thinking of going High CR- Low boost first, but then I found a cheap set of vitara pistons.

Now I wonder... why going 17 psi low CR when you can achieve the same HP with 12 psi - stock CR ??? Kyle's car made 193 WHP, with a stock engine.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:16 pm 
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Caaarlo wrote:
I am heading your same way too. I have bought a set of vitara pistons for my car just because I found them cheap.

I was thinking of going High CR- Low boost first, but then I found a cheap set of vitara pistons.

Now I wonder... why going 17 psi low CR when you can achieve the same HP with 12 psi - stock CR ??? Kyle's car made 193 WHP, with a stock engine.


Something about high boost and high compression makes me worry ... i know its in the fueling and the timing but it still makes me worry

Granted if i had to do this over again i would try a High CR set up but add multi port water injection to keep detonation levels low and timing high :twisted:


The high boost thing is really to see the kind of torque i can get .. but i'm not sure if i told you guys but this is with the computer on a rough tune when we go back on the dyno i'll fine tune for an hour and hopefully get some more impresive numbers

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:31 pm 
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I've been watching your project progress as well.. I like your TQ numbers... I only get to play with my car about twice a year, it's an ocean and about 6,000 miles away..

It's funny, because on my way home from work today, i was thinking about your torque numbers, and how your about 30ft/lbs over my figures with the same hp.. I'd figure it'd be a good topic to discuss with the engineering elders.. 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:40 pm 
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ohh sorry to hear about your play time with the car...

.. One of the reasons why my torque figures is the way it is could be due to boost levels and timing maps.

I sent you an email by the way asking about your torque figures and timing numbers.

Well when i'm at 17 psi boost my timing from 5000 upwards is 18 Degrees
When i'm at 10psi boost and 5000 RPM upwards my timing is about 26 degrees

My static timing is 12 degrees

In vacuum my Max timing is about 41 degrees

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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 1:31 am 
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Hi everyone, it's been about 7 years since i've driven the swift. It's been sitting behind my family's house in Nebraska all this time. The good news is I'm going to be moving back to that area so I'm going to have the chance to revive it. It's in pretty rough shape with alot of chewed wires and the engine in unknown condition. I'm looking forward to pulling everything apart and rebuilding.
It's good to see a lot of familiar faces still around the forum, especially some of the founding fathers. Anyways, looking forward to sharing the project with everyone again and maybe getting the chance to attend a meet this year. Take care and stay swift.

Dave

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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 2:46 am 
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Holy dead post dattman... welcome back Dave, theres still a few old timers kicking around 8)


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