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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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 Post subject: Caaarlo's Turbo Project
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:29 pm 
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Location: San Juan, Argentina
( The videos are on page 8 )


This week I am going to decide relevant things about my tubo setup.

The car has stock 74.5mm pistons and the CR is 10.6:1. Fuel and ignition is no problem since I have the Megasquirt. Turbo and Intercooler off Eclipse GS-T (T25)

I have three options in mind.

1)
-Keep engine internals and 10.6 CR
-Keep wastegate boost (7-8 psi)
-Stock FPR.
-My Fuel Rail is hollow and injectors are split on two alternating banks (4-1 and 2-3), so, pressure drop will not be noticeable.
-Either Stock or 390cc injectors
-Program a more aggressive timing retard.
-Use 97-100 octane fuel (available everywhere here)

2)
Same as 1, but machine pistons 0.3mm down to get compression back to stock 10:1 (weaker pistons ???)

3)
-Rebuild engine with vitara pistons (more $)
-Program a not so aggressive retard
-Use a boost controller to get 12-15 psi
-I guess it will be necessary to install stronger connecting rods ($)
-I will need an aftermarket FPR due to the larger boost.
-390cc injectors
-No need to use high octane fuel.

It is expected that the volumetric efficiency of 1 and 2 will be better than 3 due to the higher CR, so, I expect 1 and 2 to deliver some 150-160 HP, and 3 to deliver some 180-190 HP. for 30-40 HP more, is it worth to face choice number 3 ?

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Last edited by Caaarlo on Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:26 am, edited 22 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 9:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:36 pm
Posts: 493
Location: Roscommon, MI
I would do #2. 10:1 would be a pretty good choice for the higher octane fuel you have available and still run 12+ psi. Not to mention, it's the easiest and cheapest way to make the best power.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:25 am 
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Location: Bangalore
I would go with 1.
And you would still be able to run at least 10 PSI. With the right gas and timing.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:11 am 
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Location: Seattle, WA
opt.1 should work just fine. all of kyle's turbo numbers were with a stock engine, although the big numbers came with the addition of a cultus intake ...
if you're looking for a little more grunt, have the camshafts reground, your biggest obstacle with the dohc engine is getting all those exhaust gasses out of the head ...
if you do tear it down, port out the exhaust side, it'd be more helpful to you then machining your pistons down, I think the loss of material there would be worse for your safety margins then the 5% difference in static compression ...
with a megasquirt and some bigger injectors (and maybe a bigger fuel pump) you should be laughing all the way down the track...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:55 am 
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Location: San Juan, Argentina
Yup, I am going to build #1. After some e-mail exchange with Kyle, I decided to go the high compression way.

Of course I have a DSM fuel pump. Regarding the Cultus intake... I wish I could get one here. Anyway, I will enlarge the intake TB hole and try both 45 and 60mm TBs. The 60mm will probably make a difference in the upper RPM range like the cultus intake does.

Now I am struggling to get a Vitara Cyl Head Gasket for machining the o-ring grooves. The stock one with 75mm fire rings is fine for me, but the vitara gasket will leave more room for rebuilds or even vitara pistons.

One thing I've noticed when I bought the gaskets, is that the intake head gasket is made of plain metal sheet. I wonder if it will provide enough sealing for the positive pressure. Did you guys use this metallic gasket or reinforced the sealing with some sealant compound ?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:31 am 
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Location: trinidad, W.I.
never heard anybody complain about those intake manifold gaskets leaking under low boost. Maybe u could just change it to an thermal insulating gasket while you're at it and put silicone or something similar to ensure a seal?

10.6:1 CR? with 10 psi?

i have a cultus engine right now CR is what, 11:1 or 11.5:1?
i've been dying to take the turbo kit off my other engine 10:1 and slap it on this one, but i thought that would destroy it for sure, especially at 10 psi

i also have a megasquirt that i still have to get running,
should i boost the cultus engine?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:18 pm 
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Location: San Juan, Argentina
Well, I measured compression today. With cold engine and a gone starter, it measured 190-185-190-195 psi, with 10,6 CR and cams. Overlap and low engine temperature are influencing to get these low compression readings, So, what do you guys think ???

In my opinion, the compression measurements are pretty good, and the engine is ready for the turbo. The engine will be pulled out this monday for disassembly, o-ringing, new axial bearings, some head job, bronze valve guides and recut valve seats.

I still don't know what cams to use with the turbo, since I have both the stock ones with 232-7.5mm and my current ones with 258-8.6mm.

Regarding injectors, I yet have to see whether it will be necessary to use the 390s or not. Stock injectors were working at 55% max duty cycle in my modified NA engine, so I guess they will work just fine at around 85-90% DC at 7psi, making 390 injectors unnecessary. Will see... 390 would only need to work at a more reasonable 70% max DC.

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Last edited by Caaarlo on Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:04 am 
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Location: Roscommon, MI
Compression numbers sound good. Do you have adjustable cam gears? If so I'd stick with the cams in there and just retard the intake cam a bit.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:18 am 
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To decrease compression in the lower RPM ? Sounds good...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 3:21 pm 
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Location: San Juan, Argentina
Ok, The exhaust cam has all of the lobes destroyed, and this scratched the lifters BAADDD. The retail price in my country is $45 each lifter, so I am considering an alternative solution, like machining/polishing the scratched faces and then send them for nitriding/tuftriding. Cams will be either refilled with good quality STELITE or reground and also nitrided.

It is the set of cams I got from SUZISPORT Australia. Their quality SUCKS. Poor quality refills with no surface hardness treatment.

EDIT: This is what I am talking about
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=23943

Stay away from those cams.

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Last edited by Caaarlo on Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:55 pm 
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Location: San Juan, Argentina
Ok, now working on the cyl head. Removing the lips behind the valve seat and rounding edges after the intake port.

Image
Image
Image

And finally, lifters back to life after a shaving the surface.

Image

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 Post subject: .
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:22 pm 
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Location: Brisbane
Thought about using a slightly thicker headgasket if you are concerned about how fast your tuning ability is? :D

BTW, I think you will find power is peaky with your cams. You will certainly make some..but would get more "area under the curve" with a lesser grind.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 9:34 pm 
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Ok, This is the heart of the project, it's a T25 water cooled turbo (Mitsu Eclipse GS-T).

Image



These are the 3 injector sets I have, but it seems stock ones will do the trick. The thing is... once you feel the power, you always want more. So... 12 psi are invading my thoughts.

Image
Image




The intake manifold is ready to match the 60mm throttle body i bought for my NA setup and never installed, just in case it performs better than the stock 45mm one with the turbo setup. If it doesn't, then back to the stock one. I wonder if that big hole along with the 45mm TB will produce turbulence. Maybe I will have to machine a thick aluminum plate with a conical hole from 45 to 60mm to fit between the stock TB and the modified manifold.

Image



Do you like the mirror finish ?

Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 12:06 pm 
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Location: San Juan, Argentina
Rebuilt stock Daikin clutch, with uprated springs and pressure plate with twice the stock rate.

Image


And guess what I am going to use as boost control solenoid ??? These canister/idle solenoids are no longer used since I installed the Megasquirt, and one of them will be used to bleed the wastegate actuator to control boost. I other words, I will recycle the solenoids and use them as boost control solenoids. One of them for spare. :D

Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 12:16 pm 
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Location: Springville, UT
Carlo, you never cease to amaze me. The idle solenoids. Genius.
-looks for the karma button-

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:37 pm 
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I think you will find out soon that the two valves are too small to use for a bleed valve even de idle valve will raze the pressure only 4 PSI and also has a one way valve inside and this valve opens under overpressure.
If you want to go for closed loop boost control go for a 3/2 valve of an Audi TT wastegate regulator valve and run it on 16Hz PMW. My ECU can only run @ 25Hz at the lowest. But that’s OK for this type of valve. @ 50Hz PMW the valve gets sticky.
The 3/2 valve is not a bleed valve and with this valve you will be able to raze the pressure as far as you want so you better set de boost cut off correct.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 3:43 pm 
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The larger idle solenoid you're talking about, located between the manifold and the valve cover.does have a 1 way valve in paralell with the solenoid, letting air flow in one direction always, and in both directions only when the solenoid is on. But the Megasquirt still uses this valve for idle control.

The solenoids I am talking about are the smaller ones for evap/electrical loads located in the opposite side of the manifold, close to the firewall. I have tested both to work up to 50 psi without leaks. Regarding the size, I will tell you after the first runs, but I guess it will work. It is a bleeder, not a throttle body :-P :D

Regarding the PWM frequency, I was thinking of 20 HZ, which is the same frequency the ECU operates the idle valve.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 4:07 pm 
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I hope you get the thing working and if not here in Europe you will be able to find one for 25 Euro or so second hand.

Does the Measquirt have smart boot control? This makes it possible to let the controller be off below a set level of %TPS and inlet pressure avoiding un necessary boost built-up during normal driving in front of the throttle valve.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 4:12 pm 
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Yes. This is the boost contol setup

Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 5:13 pm 
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Nice one I like it. Sober but very user friendly I think. 4 target point? I like the thing that boost is liked to TPS. Also great if you run a compressor with a bypass valve. :idea:

This is the boost control toy Andy made for us in the new type ECU.


Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 5:49 pm 
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Excellent ! I also like the spark timing graph in 3D. Megatune's are almost the same, but monochrome and less user friendly. Anyway, watching your table/map, you could perfectly synthesize that curve with the Megasquirt's 4 points. (actually 5 are needed, but the 2500 point could perfectly be an interpolation between 2000 and 3000).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 12:01 pm 
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Well, this morning, I had some time to play with all the parts together, and measured all of them. I think the 60mm TB will be overkill because the Turbo blows air thrhough a 44mm hole and the DSM intercooler is even smaller, 42mm. I now figure out that the piping will have to be 2" diameter or even 1-7/8" and the transition from this pipe to the 60mm TB will decrease speed and might produce some turbulence.

Image

Image

After having the intake over bored to match the 60mm TB, I now think i might actually have screwed up. Just in case, a 20mm aluminum plate with a conical 45-60mm transition hole, sandwiched between the TB and the intake, will probably fix this and recover the smooth transition from the 45mm TB to the intake plenum.

Well, here is a pic of the intercooler, after some polish.

Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:41 pm 
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I have just received the exhaust manifold. It was designed to hold the turbo slightly diagonal to accomodate for the power steering pump. Yes, I have PS :? and I also had AC, which is long gone now.

Although it looks perfect... It has some few imperfections :lol: :rollin: :rollin: Ohhh, my hands were quite dirty and you can see my dark fingerprints on it. Sorry :roll:

Guess who did it ??? Nope, it was not Leonardo Da Vinci... neither Michelangelo...

Thanks Jess, outstanding Job !!! :cheers: :thumb2: :worship:


Image

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Last edited by Caaarlo on Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:49 am 
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Detonation is an issue for any engine, and it is being taken care of here.

Bosch piezo sensor and the block protrusion for placing it.
Image



In order to enter the megasquirt, the signal from the sensor must be filtered to avoid false knock detection. Remember there are also other mechanical vibrations coming from the valve train and drive train, and the ECU may think these vibrations are from chamber detonation, so... they must be filtered, rejected. I decided to go the analog route, no expensive and tricky DSPs, just a second order active bandpass filter with a Q=10 and center frequency = 7.8 KHz. The main knock frequency component comes from a good approximation formula F=573/bore diameter[mm].
Sorry, it is still being tested on the proto board :D
Image


PC based signal generator and spectrum analyzer for testing the filter. LOOKING GOOD.
Image


My messy table:
Image


And finally, some white noise seen on the scope. White noise is necessary for testing the filter. It basically emulates various kinds of vibrations and then the filter rejects all other vibrations except knocking.
Image

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Last edited by Caaarlo on Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:35 am
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Location: West Midlands, UK
It's really nice to see you paying so much detail to the little things that count. When me & my friend used to tune his toyota celica 190 (VVTL-I) on the apexi standalone we used to notice an extreme spike of knock on a hard gearshift.

I have the same knock sensor, (didn't know it was a bosch sensor) it came with a knock link kit.

Your project is certainly going to be one to keep an eye on.

Phil


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