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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:39 pm 
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Hello all. I just bought a manifold and turbo from Turbine Tech and i have a few questions. Would it be worthwhile to upgrade the fuel pump? I have seen the coolant temp mod. Would that work well for my setup? I only plan on running 5-10psi, so nothing too crazy. It is a TC04 turbocharger. It will be intercooled. I also have 3tech's performance head/cam. If i cannot get enough fuel then what about adding a second injector? I have heard of people doing it but i haven't seen a pic or a writeup on it.

Thanks a bunch guys.

Kyle

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Last edited by z34-5speed on Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:41 pm 
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Anything?

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:44 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:35 pm 
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Ive got 3 turbo rods and pistons that you can use. you can get by without doing that. I ran on high comp for a while. but now im doing it again with lower comp than this factory t3 stuff will do. assuming your block is in good shape, hone it, put some rings on it and go hard. you have low compression or something anyways. and a good condition intake manifold and throttle body ill give you for cheap. im moving end of the month and now everything on this piece is so custom im not gonna bother keeping any stock parts. need to clean up, you should see my shop man. give you a sweet deal too, take it. you got a good manifold and turbo to use, you should seriously consider a megasquirt though, stock ecu ate 3 head gaskets with the high compression, and nothings warped! dont make my mistakes

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:32 pm 
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I could also find you a fuel rail and injectors. dont use the n/a stuff and dont use the cts mod for that. even find yourself a junkyard ecu and harness.

dont get me wrong, you could use pretty much no mods and slap that turbo on. id like to see you be successful with this, if you thought your car was fun before... boost is the greatest invention to the 3cylinder world

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:44 am 
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If the seach button is so great what is the point of the forum?

I am not using the fuel injected setup i have. I am going to use the stock TBI.

How much boost can i run on the stock fueling system? As i said before, i only plan on running 10psi max. Should i go with the cold start injector or the coolant temp mod? Would adding a better fuel pump to the stock setup change anything?

Thanks.

Kyle

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:30 am 
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z34-5speed wrote:
If the seach button is so great what is the point of the forum?

I am not using the fuel injected setup i have. I am going to use the stock TBI.

How much boost can i run on the stock fueling system? As i said before, i only plan on running 10psi max. Should i go with the cold start injector or the coolant temp mod? Would adding a better fuel pump to the stock setup change anything?

Thanks.

Kyle

whyyyy??

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:05 pm 
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1. I have a built NA head on the car right now.
2. My intake, throttle body, and ECU off of the turbo3 is a hunk of shit.
3. Even if i got a good working one, i don't want to deal with the wiring.
4. If anything ever breaks with it, i cannot gets parts.
5. There aren't many boosted TBI Metro's.

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:23 pm 
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z34-5speed wrote:
1. I have a built NA head on the car right now.
2. My intake, throttle body, and ECU off of the turbo3 is a hunk of shit.
3. Even if i got a good working one, i don't want to deal with the wiring.
4. If anything ever breaks with it, i cannot gets parts.
5. There aren't many boosted TBI Metro's.

theres a reason for that. I dont have any hunk o shit parts, use your built n/a head, had injectors drilled into the intake manifold then.

your pistons arent really an issue, the extra compression is nice, but if you have LOW COMP in a cylinder, something is wrong, and will only get worse if you boost it.

do you have an ecu/harness off a turbo3? id be willing to work with you, its easy

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:04 am 
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Swift13b, i appreciate your enthusiasm, really. However i am not interested in using the fuel injected head. I don't care if it is easier, smarter, more tunable, etc... I wan't to stick with the tbi. I do not want to deal with the wiring, plus the other reasons i listed. Also, my car is an MK3, the ECU is for an MK2, which = more wiring.

So, how about that cold start injector or coolant temp mod? Any tips on either?

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:19 am 
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you could always use a piggyback or a megasquirt (or other stand-alone unit) to control additional injectors and retain your TBI. You could try to find a larger injector that will fit the TBI.

Also, you should replace that fuel pump... I doubt the CLT mod will be very helpful in your case. I don't think it'll give enough fuel for boost.

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:21 am 
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its a pretty uncontrollable way to add more fuel, but you can get it to work. you would probably start with making sure that tbi is in mint shape (I think that was you who got a rebuilt one?, if not, you should rebuild the injector to guarantee its in 100% functional condition. I gained 15% flow (cc-old vs cc-new) on a rebuilt, cleaned injector. mind you it was a port injector, not a throttle body injector, but I only paid 15$ per. Diesel shop.
Next, I would make sure you fuel pump is healthy, I dont know how to determine this, so I usually just go buy a new name brand (like a walbro 180 or 255) they are fairly cheap and adapt to the stock tank with about 45mins and $10 worth of hardware, and works like stock. Minus whale put a new filter in it in the engine bay and ditch the rear if you haven't already

On my megasquirt when I was tuning actual water temp against afr values, I found I needed to add more fuel when it was cold to make my o2 sensor agree it was stoich (cold engine = less efficient) so in your head, imagine a graph starting at -40F to 180F in where -40 is as much as 50% more fuel (value of 150%) compared to 160-180F being 100%.

Now with the cts mod you can dial back your engine temperature (oooh big surprise here) to the ecu, so it puts itself lower in the graph, the more you turn it, the longer the pulsewidth of the injector is. Basically, this will be your best way to "add fuel" enough so that you dont blow it up in the higher rpms. but either youll be wasting too much fuel and power in the not-full-boost mode. which doesnt really matter, its just a crude way of getting you the fuel.

I would look into a 2 or 3:1 fpr to make your "base" fuel pressure increase with the boost.

I dont know how much that tbi injector can flow, and would disagree on the cold start injector. thats just totally uncontrollable.

make sure you do some reading on boost vs ignition timing so you retard enough off your base timing against, youll be lacking low end power/economy a real tune could do, but you wont blow it up in the high rpms.

basically its like how I had my last setup, only worse and less tunable (no vaf to fine tune, no mpfi etc), mine didnt last too long but it sure was fun, so now im gonna do it right so I can have it reliable.

lean and rich spots and weak off-boost timing, itll work, I wouldnt go crazy with the boost

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:24 am 
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turbohull wrote:
you could always use a piggyback or a megasquirt (or other stand-alone unit) to control additional injectors and retain your TBI. You could try to find a larger injector that will fit the TBI.

Also, you should replace that fuel pump... I doubt the CLT mod will be very helpful in your case. I don't think it'll give enough fuel for boost.

he doesnt want to deal with any wiring... hell, one big step up over using this current setup would be the stock t3 ecu/wiring and that system as its designed for boost. youve also got a rather large turbo compared to stock.

sensor mod+fpr+proper flowing tbi should be good to handle 6psi on perhaps a 3:1. I honestly have never worked with a tbi unit on these cars before, so I could be pulling numbers out of my ass for all I know. I just think that little 40hp injector wont do much more than double if your lucky

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:47 pm 
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z34-5speed wrote:
Hello all. I just bought a manifold and turbo from Turbine Tech and i have a few questions. Would it be worthwhile to upgrade the fuel pump? I have seen the coolant temp mod. Would that work well for my setup? I only plan on running 5-10psi, so nothing too crazy. It is a TC04 turbocharger. It will be intercooled. I also have 3tech's performance head/cam. If i cannot get enough fuel then what about adding a second injector? I have heard of people doing it but i haven't seen a pic or a writeup on it.


Kyle

It sounds like you're looking for a little direction.
Not everybody wants to get involved in wiring, or building, and tuning an MS.
Personally, I have zero interest in playing with all that spaghetti, and have even less time to get involved in the learning curve involved with a MS.
I like the cheap and dirty, and that sounds like what you're looking for.
if it were my Metro, I would use a good IC.
Since I think you have increased compression, you might want to start looking at water injection options.
Start accumulating parts (you're going to need a pile of little stuff), and in the meantime do as much research as you can. Don't believe everything you read.
Set a goal, and work toward it. 20psi, and 150 hp atw is probably not a realistic goal. 4-5 psi is, and should be easily attainable on the stock stuff, with the CTS mod. I would try to shim the wastegate to run 2psi at first, then move up a bit at a time.
The stock pump is low pressure, and is not capable of more than about 30psi in use. Keep this in mind if you want to use a rising rate regulator.
A GT pump might be a good option, later.
Don't let people tell you why it won't work. It will.
Is it the right way to do it?
No, but its all about perspective. Building up, racing, or turboing a Metro is a retarded proposition on a good day, so cutting a few corners, and possibly costing a few HP in the process is, IMO, par for the course. If you were building a 1000hp inline 6, you'd be stupid not to do it right, but for a fun project, no strings attached, git r done :-P

This car was built with a rising rate FPR, cold start injector, and CTS mod.
This run is at 14psi.
As far as I know, he ran this thing for a full year like this with no problems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJJRhIF3KXE

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:01 pm 
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the only argument and reasoning I have that makes the ms significantly better than the rest are these key points:
1)when you retard timing to compensate for boost on stock ecu, you kill your low end advance (which, you could probably ADVANCE off boost and gain some mpgs/hps. its because you shift the whole ignition map by however many degrees you pull back. I ran it like that for a while, and found that theres alot of room for ignition advance in the 80kPa and under that the stock ecu didnt even have itself.
2)You cant fine tune your fuel, the best you can do, is make it run around 12:1 when your foot is on the floor, between there you could have some lean spots coming up on boost, or really rich and wash the cyl walls and waste fuel. Significant power increase if you can tune to run 14.5 on light accel, 13.5 on med accel, and 12.5 at WOT, and gain some economy to tune for ~15.5 at cruise, rather than using the stock stoich cruise settings.
3)you are going to do alot of guessing and tweaking, and im not saying it cant be done, im just saying you would be much happier with a 150whp 3cyl than adding 15 or so to your already modded n/a motor with a few psi.

Im not kidding with this comparison:
td04 at 10psi feels like the stock rhb32 turbo at 14 psi, both on stock ecu. since ive put the wastegate line back to 100% stock I get 7-8psi now, and it is FASTER than 10psi before on the stock ecu, especially in the throttle response department and how it feels coming into boost compared to before.
I dynod on the stock ecu on 10# and did 110 with a blown motor. and honestly I feel that is relatively impressive. since the megasquirt and all else, and now at 8psi, I bet you if I put it on the dyno it would do 115+ at 8psi.
and this is the absolute best after much tweaking the t3 system with fuel pressure and tweaking the vane meter I could get my afrs
Image

and thats not very good, theres much more power hidden in just this system, let alone you primative tbi system you want to use

and like I said in another thread, we turned it up to 15-16 because im an idiot and wanted to have some fun. afr's were in check and had no knock, but I still had a bad motor. The exedy replacement clutch with 20000km that was holding just fine lasted about 30mins, and it was toast, and we blew up the diff. same day. Theres no way that was less than 140whp, and FUCK that is INCREDIBLE.
I cant even explain the feeling and the massive smile that came on the face for those few minutes the drivetrain held together. the 185/60/14s break FREE once you hit boost in 3rd gear (at like 90-95kmh). pulling from 3500 to redline, I had traction up to about 5500, then it broke free, bounced off the limiter and caught some traction again. I was only using a 6500rpm redline, and I want MORE. 8000rpm on this next motor, so I can get a 6000-8000 burst in acceleration. its no wonder the diff didnt hold, and slamming that power into 4th wouldnt break the tires free so it was just wrecking the clutch. tires only burned up in 3rd a few times until it started slipping, now its slipping all the time, and the diff blew. so I pulled EVERYTHING apart and im going to build it to handle that much power.

Ive seen your enthusiasm with your car, and I was the same way. ive spent countless dollars on parts I keep blowing up because I want my 3cyl to be faster and faster.

your low compression in a cylinder concern me a little, though my recent dry test before causing more damage was 200-200-160 and it still made decent power.


so after ive said ALLL of this, heres what you should do if you dont wanna spend any money. do what mike said, and figure out a way to start at LESS tahn the 6-8psi that wastegate will be set to.
do that cts mod I guess, it works by adjusting the percentage of fuel added, so it WILL add fuel, there no doubt about it, but you need to think that if you turn it "on" when you are driving around you will waste fuel, so you almost need a way to trigger it to come on with boost. otherwise just crank it up before you mash your foot. its a very crude way of adding a turbo to your car, and I would really hate to see you burn up a valve or a piston because of lack of tuning. by no means do I drive mine nice, and with the cheap parts I put in it, it lasted long enough as a trial. now im doing it so I can run 140-150 daily on 94 pump, have a tune to run on 87 octane if I wanted to, can change it to run on e85, and go for 180+ on c16+meth.

theres lots of power to be made outta this 3cyl, how long you want to enjoy it is up to how much money you want to put in.

Wiring is honestly not that big of a deal, unless you are color blind and incompetent, I could have my 16yo brother do wiring work on my car. give it a chance atleast. you can sure get it boosted without spending much more money, but you just bought a baller turbo and manifold. if you only wanted to run this low budged tbi shit, you should have bought my stock t3 turbo stuff, even had a ported manifold. and you could get the same gains with that as you did spending 800+ dollars. To really make use of that combination you will want 10psi + which I dont think you can do. high comp + low boost is fun and all, but will only give you a torque curve like this:
Image

which is nice and flat and very very streetable and fun, but where that little "peak" came on in that chart was where I got my boost in power when we ran 15+psi, so want I want is a powerband that comes on much stronger, and be reliable enough im not building a new motor every 30000km

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:17 pm 
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z34, you have mike's head package right? what cam you got in there?

even if you want to keep things simple and not use "exotic" parts like turbo MK2 stuff, I think you might want to at least grab a wideband gauge, especially if you plan to turn up the boost.

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:24 pm 
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Ok, that makes more sense Swift13b.

218/350

I'm at 150 on all 3. Brand new headgasket. My question is this. What would MS do for me with the tbi? I didn't think that there was much you could tune with it.

I plan on removing and inspecting the injector. What all is involved in upgrading the fuel pump to a Walboro 255?

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:53 pm 
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with the megasquirt you can do anything you want. however, you will still want more fuel than it can flow anyways. why not drill 3 injector bungs into your current manifold and use the megasquirt as a piggyback to only run ignition timing and extra fuel for those injectors, and leave the rest stock so you can use the tbi and stock fuel system for the rest of it.

the tbi would be an air restriction but its better than what you are proposing

or taking it further again, buy a IM/TB off a t3, if you have one use it, if you need one, buy mine! you dont NEED the injectors in the head, but you could always drill those too, think 87octane was doing that

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:19 pm 
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z34-5speed wrote:
Ok, that makes more sense Swift13b.

218/350

I'm at 150 on all 3. Brand new headgasket. My question is this. What would MS do for me with the tbi? I didn't think that there was much you could tune with it.

I plan on removing and inspecting the injector. What all is involved in upgrading the fuel pump to a Walboro 255?

Thanks.

MS will do the exact same thing it will do on a MPFI car. it controls fuel and if you want, it controls spark. that being said, MS is useful when upgrading the injectors. if you can't find a bigger injector to go in that TBI then a MS is not that useful. what it could do is get to control spark advance.

A Megasquirt is cheap, really... but as suprf1y said, it takes a LOT of time to learn just the basics of how to get it to work "correctly".

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:49 am 
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turbohull wrote:
A Megasquirt is cheap, really... but as suprf1y said, it takes a LOT of time to learn just the basics of how to get it to work "correctly".

I think hes the kinda guy that would enjoy it, really, a monkey could do it. and he can add injectors and run it seperate from the stock ecu

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 Post subject: Re: Boosting N/A G10...
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 7:51 pm 
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Ok, so here is how it sits at the shop. So far the only problem we've run into is that the oil filter hits the compressor housing. This is only 2 nights work so far. I am so excited about this beast!!! :burnout:


Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

And a bonus pic of his current project...

Image

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:01 pm 
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lol are those still the 12" tires?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:13 am 
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155 60 R12s.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:47 pm 
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z34-5speed wrote:
155 60 R12s.

185/60/14 wouldnt hook up for me, hopefully you dont make as much power then

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:54 pm 
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It's looking good!

Have you given any thought to getting a wideband? With the non-common (turboing the TBI) setup you are doing it seems like that is mostly uncharted territory. At least that way you could be a little safer and know what your mods will be doing to your AFR. It would stay useful for you as you modify your car down the road.... I have been wanting one for a while.

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