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G13B Seven Iltempogigante
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45505
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Author:  pelle17b [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:25 am ]
Post subject:  G13B Seven Iltempogigante

I am about to build a new turboed G13B for my seven.

The car was registered for road use in Sweden in august 2009. It still needs a paint job and some small things are left to do to get it looking nice, but mechanically it works fine.

The engine shall be used for road and track day use:

Image
Image

Todays engine is torboed with stock internals dynoed to 150bhp 160Nm. Setup is as below:
* G13B stock internals
* Dry sump with 2 stage Scavenge pump, home made oil pan and the stock engine oil pump used for pressure.
* Swift MKII intake and throttle body.
* Supra 315cc low Z injectors @3.2bar fuel pressure
* The ECU is an MSII V3 with the extra code (The distributor is removed from the engine).
* VR sensor on a 64-2 toothed disk on the crank.
* Wasted spark using 4 x VAG coil on plug ignitors.
* Boost control using a GM boost control solenoid.
* Innovate WBo2
* Toyota Celica ST165 Watercooled Intercooler

The plan for the witer is to change the following
* MKII block
* Stock remanufactured head slightly ported on the exhaust side. Slightly bigger valves.
* MLS Gasket?
* Reground camshafts with adjustable gears
* ARP head studs
* ARP studs for main bearings and rods
* Forged pistons 8.5:1 or 9:1 compression (probably 8.5:1 and the block skimmed a bit to get 8.8:1)
* New rods
* Stock crank
* Lighter flywheel
* New bearings and gaskets
* Full balance
* 440cc Supra injectors

I would like to get good off bost performance as well so I would like to lower CR to something in the 8.8:1 -ish area.

Target is around 200 reliable BHP.

Does the setup sound good? Any suggestins for changes?

A question for selecting the forged pistons are what CR I have to begin with?
Does anyone know for sure the CR for a stock G13B engine?

Generally i see 10:1 from various sources, but if the figures in the post quoted below are correct it computes more towards 9.6:1.

I have done the following calculations and assumptions:

G13B head (according to GTI head in post below) 32.4 cc
My used headgasket measured thickness is 1.25mm with a diameter of 75mm it gives 5.5 cc
Pistons are deck high measured on my block (they might be a tenth of a mm lower than deck, but in that case it would lower compression even more).

This gives a total unswept volume of 37.9 cc

Cylinder bore is 74 mm and Stroke 75.5 mm.
This gives a swept volume of 324.7 cc

(Vswept + Vunswept)
So CR should be CR = ---------------------- = (324.7 + 37.9) / 37.9 = 9.6:1
Vunswept


The difference between 10:1 and 9.6:1 corresponds to 1.7 cc difference in combustion chamber volume or roughly 0.4mm skimming of the head or block.

http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24954&start=25

Quote:
I think the following info could be helpfull to some. All cc'ing was done properly with burrette's and 1/2 thick glass plate. Piston dish was determined with the piston sealed with a silicone o-ring in the top groove, and moved .100" down the bore, then calculated to remove the volume of the .100" displacement...so, the piston dish volume assumes a piston that is deck high. (level with the top of the block)

G16 75mm piston as used in 1998 Esteem (should be same as Vitara) 12.3 cc
G13bb 74mm piston as used in 1999 Swift 6.7 cc
GTI head (stock with no machining) 32.4 cc's
G13bb head (stock with no machining) 26.2 cc's
Felpro head gasket with 76mm bore before compression Approx 6.0 cc's
The G13bb engine was factory assemboled with the pistons almost exacty deck high.


/Peter Bostrom

Author:  turbohull [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

hello, nice COP setup there :D

can you share the details of your trigger wheel? is it off another vehicle or custom made?

Author:  pelle17b [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

The trigger wheel is lasercut from 3mm steel. The trigger wheel together with a pulley for the scavenge oil pump is is mounted to the cambelt pulley on the crankshaft.

The waterpump pulley is from an MK1 engine with the alernator pulley removed.

I have moved the alternator to the intake side of the engine to make room for the dry sump scavenge pump. I use the same belt that drives the waterpump for driving the alternator.

You can partly see the arrangement on this picture.

I see no reason why it would not work putting the trigger wheel on a longer boss mounted to the crankshaft if you want to keep the alternator pulley and have no need for a dry sump system.

Image

/Peter

Author:  Knuckles [ Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

What tranny are you running in your car?
very nice setup, would love to see that car run.
must be hard to put the power to the road already, going to 200hp might make it a lot more scary.

Author:  pelle17b [ Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

Well yes the car accelerates fairly well, but from second gear and up I can floor it without spinning on dry tarmac.

I use 205mm wide Toyo 888 R-type tyres at the rear. It is rear wheel drive with roughly 60% of the weight on the rear wheels, and I am sorry to say that it is not as light as it looks. Wet weight is 650kgs (but centre of gravity is low so it corners well).

I guess the current power is acceptable for this type of car, but it is hard to resist rebuilding the engine just for the challenge to see if I can get an extra 50 reliable and driveable hp.

The driveline is:

Turboed G13B engine with dry sump
Suzuki Samurai tranny.
4 puck paddle clutch, and slightly harder pressure plate
Ford Sierra Diff with LSD (Think the Sierra was called Merkur in US)
Ford Scorpio driveshafts.
Individual rear suspension using Saab 900 front uprights. Steering arm used for toe adjustment, and by some coincidence the scorpio driveshaft splines fit the Saab cv joint.

The diff is not symmetrical so the driveshaft R and L lengths are not equal for the Sierra/Scorpio. I have moved the whole driveline 20mm to the right in the car, and by that I can use two of the shorter driveshafts to get the trackwith right (the scorpio is far wider than the seven). As a bonus the weight distribution gets better too :-).

Anyone have any info on my initial question on Compression ratio for the stock engine??

/peter

Image
Image

Author:  Gasoline Fumes [ Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

Nice car! I love Sevens. 8)


pelle17b wrote:
Anyone have any info on my initial question on Compression ratio for the stock engine??

US owner's manual says 10:1.

Author:  pelle17b [ Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

Ok thanks! I think that the european Swift has the same spec so it probably is 10:1.

Just to be sure, I have ordered a Burette, and I have a couple of heads to measure on so I will do the measurements and the math as soon as the it is delivered.

/Peter

Author:  turbohull [ Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

read this, and don't forget to use the search button. cc measuring has already been done by a few people...


also...
Mr.Pipe wrote:
I think the following info could be helpfull to some. All cc'ing was done properly with burrette's and 1/2 thick glass plate. Piston dish was determined with the piston sealed with a silicone o-ring in the top groove, and moved .100" down the bore, then calculated to remove the volume of the .100" displacement...so, the piston dish volume assumes a piston that is deck high. (level with the top of the block)

G16 75mm piston as used in 1998 Esteem (should be same as Vitara) 12.3 cc
G13bb 74mm piston as used in 1999 Swift 6.7 cc
GTI head (stock with no machining) 32.4 cc's
G13bb head (stock with no machining) 26.2 cc's
Felpro head gasket with 76mm bore before compression Approx 6.0 cc's
The G13bb engine was factory assemboled with the pistons almost exacty deck high.
Installing the G16 piston in a G13b block with GTI crank and rods required the block to be machined .041" to be deck high.
I machined mine .045" to get compression ratio around 8.6:1 using the G16 75mm piston
G13bb head, and felpro gasket.

I machined the top of my block for a .030" stainless steel wire. I cut the grooves .024"
for a .006 wire protrusion. I fit my ends of my wire at an angle to provide a nice leak-proof gap that is almost undetectable. (yes, i've done many of these before)
Sorry, i needed my car back together so soon, i never took any pictures.

Darcy

hope this helps

Author:  pelle17b [ Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

Yes I have searched and I have seen those posts. If you read the beginning of this thread you can see that it is the reason for my question.

As far as I can see Caarlos approximate calculation using 10:1 as the original CR is correct, with the only questionmark if the original CR really is 10:1. The reason I wonder if the original CR really is 10:1 is that if I use the measured volme of the combustion chamber from the other post it computes to a CR of 9.5:1 not 10:1.

So either I have done wrong calculating, or the measurement is wrong or 10:1 is wrong.

/Peter

Author:  turbohull [ Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

why the questions about the advertised CR being right or wrong? you want 200hp? you already have the hardware to do it. just throw some civic or vitara pistons and raise the boost 8) If it was me I'd keep the stock pistons with careful tuning. how much boost were you running on your dyno run?

Author:  locost7018 [ Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

You have done just what I want to do with my Locost 7. Although I won't do all the $$$$ mod's. I plan on keeping it fairly stock. Megasquirt and maybe bike carbs. I wish I could find a wiring diagram to make the stock computer a stand alone unit so I could save some bucks. Pelle 17b where are you located? I'm in Kansas City Missouri USA area. I have the motor and trans just sitting in the garage just waiting to replace the old Xflow that is in my car. Russ

Author:  turbohull [ Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

locost7018 wrote:
You have done just what I want to do with my Locost 7. Although I won't do all the $$$$ mod's. I plan on keeping it fairly stock. Megasquirt and maybe bike carbs. I wish I could find a wiring diagram to make the stock computer a stand alone unit so I could save some bucks. Pelle 17b where are you located? I'm in Kansas City Missouri USA area. I have the motor and trans just sitting in the garage just waiting to replace the old Xflow that is in my car. Russ

about your wiring harness, I've seen people mount their megasquirts in the stock GTi ECU case., you need to sacrifice the ECU for the connector. the wiring diagrams are all available on this forum if you search a little.

Author:  chicknfeet [ Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

WoW!!!

Author:  pelle17b [ Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

Quote:
You have done just what I want to do with my Locost 7. Although I won't do all the $$$$ mod's. I plan on keeping it fairly stock. Megasquirt and maybe bike carbs. I wish I could find a wiring diagram to make the stock computer a stand alone unit so I could save some bucks. Pelle 17b where are you located? I'm in Kansas City Missouri USA area. I have the motor and trans just sitting in the garage just waiting to replace the old Xflow that is in my car. Russ


Good luck with the engine swap. You will need the swift flywheel and pressure plate, and the clutch disk from the samurai (splines differ between the sammy and the swift gearbox). Apart from that it is just to bolt them together.

I am here:
Image


Quote:
why the questions about the advertised CR being right or wrong? you want 200hp? you already have the hardware to do it. just throw some civic or vitara pistons and raise the boost 8) If it was me I'd keep the stock pistons with careful tuning. how much boost were you running on your dyno run?


Well I know that for 200 hp it might work with the current setup (I ran around 6 psi at the dyno run). An alternative is to lower the CR to 7.x by throwing in some vitara pistons bigger injectors, some tuning and Bob's your uncle.

The reason I ask about the CR and that I am lookingat at the forged piston route is partly that I want to build an engine that will work many years, reliably for track and street use. I think the engine takes more pounding using max boost during long periods for a few hours of track use compared to a drag application where you run at max boost for a few seconds at a time. Not that there is anything wrong with drag racing applications, just that I think the engines need different design criterias (if I am wrong here please feel free to comment, I am not an engine expert). I also don't want to go too low on the CR since I want as good off boost performance as possible.

Basically the 150 hp I have today would be enough, but I want to build the engine just because I like to se if I can,and also to learn during the process. The learning part makes me want to understand how and what, and why I am doing things when I build the engine.

By the way, does anyone have eperience with what kind of engine lifetime one can expect from 2618 vs 4032 piston alloys?

As i understand it the 2618 is tougher if exposed to moderate pinging, but also have more expansion with temp and thus requires more clearance. 4032 are harder and will last longer in a daily driver, but are also a bit brittle and may crack easier if exposed to pinging.

This is not my daily driver so if I dont get 100000km lifetime for the engine it is not a problem, but if 2618 pistons makes the rings and pistons needs checking and service after 10000 km it not a good option for me.

Advice anyone??

/Peter

Author:  pelle17b [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

The burette has arrived. A first rather rough measurement for one cylinder on the G13B GTI head gives

GTI head combustion chamber: 29.3 cc
Valve cutouts in piston (total): 0.8 cc
Headgasket (old compressed): 5.5 cc
Swept volume: 324.7 cc

So compression is: (324.7 + 29.3 + 0.8 + 5.5) / (29.3 + 0.8 + 5.5) = 10.1:1

Now i beleive that the stock compression really is 10:1

/Peter

Author:  turbohull [ Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

if you swap pistons for a SOHC 16V in you equation (measured 6.7cc by Mr.Pipe) and assuming they are deck height it gives you 8.8 CR, exactly what you were after in your first post. these are available new at a suzuki dealer. I'm pretty sure you can get them locally.

Author:  locost7018 [ Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

pelle17b, I thought you were suppose to use the Samurai flywheel/clutch/p plate? Great now I have a Sami flywheel sitting around looking for a home. I love that Samurai trans. You can tuck it under your arm and carry it like a loaf of bread. It has the same gear ratio ,1st through 4th, as my Ford 4sp plus I will have a 5th gear. What clutch cable did you use? Russ

Author:  pelle17b [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

Quote:
if you swap pistons for a SOHC 16V in you equation (measured 6.7cc by Mr.Pipe) and assuming they are deck height it gives you 8.8 CR, exactly what you were after in your first post. these are available new at a suzuki dealer. I'm pretty sure you can get them locally.
if you swap pistons for a SOHC 16V in you equation (measured 6.7cc by Mr.Pipe) and assuming they are deck height it gives you 8.8 CR, exactly what you were after in your first post. these are available new at a suzuki dealer. I'm pretty sure you can get them locally.


It's the 1.3l G13BB right? I found a post with parts numbers here on the forum (or maybe it was redline) a while ago.

Yes the CR looks very close to what I want. I checked pricing and availability with the local Zuk-dealer here in Sweden. Unfortunately those pistons and rings are more expensive than getting forged ones from for example SuzukiRD. :x

Suzuki spare parts are surprisingly expensive. I also experienced that when I was doing an overhaul of the gearbox a while ago. It was cheaper to buy really top quality SKF bearings from the local bearing supplier than getting them from Suzuki.

Quote:
pelle17b, I thought you were suppose to use the Samurai flywheel/clutch/p plate? Great now I have a Sami flywheel sitting around looking for a home. I love that Samurai trans. You can tuck it under your arm and carry it like a loaf of bread. It has the same gear ratio ,1st through 4th, as my Ford 4sp plus I will have a 5th gear. What clutch cable did you use? Russ
pelle17b, I thought you were suppose to use the Samurai flywheel/clutch/p plate? Great now I have a Sami flywheel sitting around looking for a home. I love that Samurai trans. You can tuck it under your arm and carry it like a loaf of bread. It has the same gear ratio ,1st through 4th, as my Ford 4sp plus I will have a 5th gear. What clutch cable did you use? Russ


I used the swift flywheel (it is lighter), the swift pressure plate, and a clutch disk for a samurai. The gearbox axle fits nicely in the pilot bearing in the flywheel, and the splines seem to be in the right place lengthwise as well.

I used a hydraulic cylinder from wilwood instead of a clutch cable. You can see it mounted to the gearbox in the picture with the engine and gearbox earlier in this thread.

Anyone here have any advice regarding which type of forged pistons to chooose?

/Peter

Author:  turbohull [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

I checked pricing over here, the best price I can get is roughly $100 for each piston w/rings. pretty expensive for OEM parts. at least they are good quality :P

I can get used engines I could salvage the pistons from for less than $200 :lol:

Author:  suprf1y [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

This is what pinkfloyd is using in his turbo GT motor.


http://cgi.ebay.ca/98-01-1-3L-Suzuki-Sw ... 3614wt_914

Author:  LocostJosh [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

I too am a G13b-Locoster! But mines still yet to run :D

Image

@locost7018:
I used the Swift Flywheel, Samurai Pressure Plate and Clutch.

Author:  locost7018 [ Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

LocostJosh, what are you using for carb and ECU???? Great looking car. Russ

Author:  pelle17b [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

This must be the cleanest and nicest G13B I have ever seen! You polished the fuel rail :shock: You bastard! This makes my engine look like junk.

Just kidding. Nice build! Do yu have a build thread somewhere?
What rear suspension are you using? IRS, De dion, or an ordinary rear axle?
How have you done with the oil pan and pickup?

Got a couple of PMs with questions on the COP setup, so here is some info just to share the info if someone else is considering COPs:

I run MSII v3.0 PCB with the MSII extra code. The COP solution has worked fine so far. I like it since it is simple, you don't need any high current drivers in the MS, all is built in into the COP. Just connect +12V and GND and control it with a logic level signal.

The COPs are Hitachi ones from an Audi 1.8T, but the COPs are on a lot more Audi, VW and Seat cars which would improve the of odds finding some on a wreck slightly.

The part numbers for the COPs that I use are:

(Hitachi CM11-201)
(BERU ZSE 009)
(VW/Audi 06B 905 115)

The connectors are VAG part numbers:
Housing VAG 4B0 973 724 (alt 1J0 973 724),
Pins 000 979 141 (alt 000 979 133A alt 000 979 225A),
Rubber boot 6X0 971 921A

There is also some more info here http://www.msextra.com/ms2extra/MS2-Ext ... htm#3coils under "VAG P/N 06B 905 115 COPs:"

I am using the setup under "Ground Switching
V3.0 PCB ONLY". As described in the text you might need to use another setup depending on the exact coil type that you find.

I run wasted spark with one 60-2 toothed wheel and a VR sensor on the crank. I had a few problems with noise on the VR sensor signal so if I were to redo it i would go for a Hall sensor instead, (and of course you need to fix the root cause for the noise too see noise problems below).

Noise problems:
I am using a MSII v3.0 board with low impedance injectors which is not a good combination without a few extra noise cancelling measures. Many of the common G13B injector upgrades like the Supra 315cc or 440cc injectors are low-Z. I you plan to use low Z injectors with a MSii V3 board I strongly suggest reading page 28 and forward in the current document. http://www.bgsoflex.com/megameet2008/megameet2008_gnding.pdf. i had big problems with the VR sensor circuit until I had done those mods. I also ended up routing the VR sensor via a twisted pair and shielded cable directly to the MS box. Not via the Relay board.

/Peter

Author:  LocostJosh [ Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

@locost7018:
I've built a MegaSquirt 1 v3 setup with expansion to use the Ford EDIS wasted spark ignition unit. It all works on the table but its yet to go in the car.

@pelle17b:
I used to have a blog but my website got hacked. So i'm rebuilding it and its nearly finished, will be at http://www.joshogilvie.com in a couple of days along with a blog about my brothers old school ford popular.

The rear suspension is IRS, with custom wishbones and uprights, MX5 diff and Ford Sierra shafts/bearing carriers. All done except the uprights, which are jigged and ready to go when I next get back home.

I had to make a sump out of the standard gti one. Cut the flange with a bit left over and tigged on steel all around it. Then matched the angle to the bottom of the car ( My G13b sits at the same angle as it would in a Samurai ) and then added baffles and a windage tray. The pickup was shortend and moved to the center of the sump.

P.s. Your dry sump setup is awesome! Its the first upgrade on my list once I can do trackdays in the thing. I'm very impressed at your install :D , although I don't plan on going Turbo anytime soon :oops:

Author:  miniswift [ Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: G13B Seven Iltempogigante

Hi,

I like your dry sump system.
Some of you know that I'm building a Mini with G13B engine.
I was thinking about going to make my engine with dry sump but didn't know how.
I will be going dry sump for clearance.
So, if my understanding is correct. I will need following.:-
modified oil pan with oil pick up
scavenge oil pump
plug old pick up hole
Oil catch tank( what capacity?)
suitable oil pump drive
pipes(sump to scavenge oil pump, scavenge oil pump to the tank and the oil tank to std oil pump)

I don't think I will be fitting oil cooler, but instead I might add heat exhanger sandwhich plate.

Am I right or I'm missing something!?

Cheers
Atchi

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