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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:44 pm 
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I have a problem with blown headgaskets on my engine.I think would need some advice on my ignition map.

I realize that the safe way would of course be to dyno tune the engine using an experienced tuner, but since I am building a new engine for next year I would rather spend the money on dynotuning the new engine when it is finished and not on this engine just to get it to run a couple of more months.

I use the engine in a Lotus seven type car that I have built. It works fine in traffic, but I have blown a couple of head gaskets on trackdays (I it runs hotter there than in ordinary traffic). There is some minor pitting of the pistons below the spark plug in cylinders 2 and 3 which indicates detonation.

The engine is a turbo converted stock GTI CR10:1
I run 0.5 bar (7 psi) of boost.
Megasquirt controls ignition and fuel.
I have both WBO and egt measurement.
I use ARP Head studs toqued to 75Nm (55lbf)
Spark plugs are one range colder than stock.
Injectors are from a celica supra and are not over 80% duty cycle. I checked the flowrate for all of them (very equal).
I also checked with a strobe light that the real timing is the same as it is set to in the ECU.

Headgasket was new but engine was warmed up, left to cool over night, and gasket was retorqued to 75 Nm (55lbf) with ARP lube. Before the trackday. I checked and the head is not warped.

I logged the run where the gasket blew.

I had 11.5 AFR on the WBO at 7 psi so it is running pretty rich. Richer than that and I will start to loose power.
Engine coolant temp was never over 100 deg C (208 f).
Intake temps (after the intercooler) never exceed 50 deg C (122 f).
EGT was below 890 deg C (1630f) at all times.

My conclusion is that my timing is off somewhere causing the gasket to blow (and the pitting of the pistons).

So my plan for improving things is to listen for knock, and also to to try to get some advice on my ignition map.

I finished building a small amplifier yesterday that is connected to a Bosch knock sensor bolted to the block. So now I can listen for knock in the intercom in my helmet, and hopefully be able to adjust the timing. That solves the listen for knock part.

Can anyone please offer some advice on my afr and ignition maps below, or if you have a working ignition map for a stock GTI that I could use for comparison (N/A or turboed) please send me a PM.

My AFR and Ignition maps currently looks like below.
Attachment:
AFRtarget 100902.jpg
AFRtarget 100902.jpg [ 52.04 KIB | Viewed 4546 times ]

Attachment:
Sparkadvance 100902.jpg
Sparkadvance 100902.jpg [ 53.82 KIB | Viewed 4545 times ]


I also added a sample from the log (accelerating out on the straight)
Attachment:
Acceleration.JPG
Acceleration.JPG [ 107.18 KIB | Viewed 3428 times ]


and a picture of the car in full flight at a rainy trackday a couple of weeks ago here in sweden. The gasket held up as long as it was wet (like natural water injection :-)), and blew when the track dried up.
Attachment:
SevenTrack.jpg
SevenTrack.jpg [ 14.38 KIB | Viewed 4545 times ]


Regards Peter Bostrom


Last edited by pelle17b on Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:25 pm 
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I'll compare my timing map to your's later tonight, or tomorrow night. But...your ARP studs should be torqued to more than 55 ft/lbs. I did a stretch test on a sample ARP 10 X 1.5 stud of the length needed in the GTi, and reached it's suitable stretch at 72 lbs with 50 wt oil as thread lube, and under head. At 55 lbs you will not be stretching an ARP enough for it to be effective.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:54 am 
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Thanks MR PIPE very kind of you to compare maps. I am looking forward to the result.

Regarding the ARP torque i read about someone with a G13 engine that pulled the threads from the block with the 80 Nm (62 lbf) that ARP recommended so I decided to to go for a torque between the stock Suzuki and the ARP. It is probably safe to go for 80 Nm (62lbf).

Since the last headgasket change the car has ben run for a week with light load only. I will retorque the head this weekend. I think I'll go for 80 Nm then. Anyone here have experience that that would be unwise?

By the way before I saw the signs of detonation I had some thoughts that it might be localized boiling around the cylinders instead of the head gasket, so I have also changed my thermostat to a 80 deg C (176 F) instead of the 88 deg C (190 F) stock one, and I have replaced the radiator cap to one that opens at 1.3 bar (19psi) instead of the 0.9 bar (13 psi) stock.

/Peter


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:58 am 
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Retorqued to 80Nm today went fine. :D


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:15 am 
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Location: Winnipeg
The colder thermostat is a good choice for a turbo engine too. Coolant temp has a huge effect on detonation.
For those interested in keeping the stock head bolts, i did some stretch tests with them too, and now torque my stock G13bb head bolts to 59 lbs, and they take that just fine.
I have not checked the factory GTi bolts however, as i've used larger 11 mm studs with those heads.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:22 am 
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your ignition curve looks ok, but the "base" timing (35 deg @ 100kPa) might be a little too much for 10:1 CR... seems a little aggressive. maybe you can try scaling down your table a little bit...

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Thank you Turbohull!

I have adjusted the base timing a little. Accordng to the reverse engineered Swift ECUs at rhinopowers site, it looks like the Swift original ignition map is around 32 deg @ full load and higer rpms so i aimed for that.

They also seem to run 48 degs @ low load dring high rpms so i advanced that part of the map a little. It might avoid the current occasional loud sound effects during deceleraion.

I have also started to adjust the acceleration enrichment to get rid of the lean spike connected to rapid throttle increase (white line in the logs above). That might cause knock for short periods of time during initial acceleration. Currently the lean situation is gone and replaced with extremely rich instead. Furtehr adjustments to come.

Below is the result compared to the old table. Comments mrpipe, turbohull, anyone?

Old
Attachment:
Sparkadvance 100902.jpg
Sparkadvance 100902.jpg [ 53.82 KIB | Viewed 4383 times ]


New
Attachment:
Sparkadvance 100907.jpg
Sparkadvance 100907.jpg [ 131.3 KIB | Viewed 4394 times ]


The old 3D graph
Attachment:
Sparkadvance 3D 100902.jpg
Sparkadvance 3D 100902.jpg [ 53.66 KIB | Viewed 4387 times ]


The new 3D graph
Attachment:
Sparkadvance 3D 100907.jpg
Sparkadvance 3D 100907.jpg [ 53.77 KIB | Viewed 4383 times ]


/Peter


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:06 pm 
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peter, i wondered what the 48* was about.

mr. pipe, i've used the 10% over torque spec with suprf1y's hard ass bolts. the block threads don't seem to have a problem with that. 54 ft/lbs plus 5.4 ft/lbs (10%) = 59.4 ft/lbs. i started that after i puked a head gasket and spun the hot side wheel off an rhb32 at 18 psi. any g family engine i'm prepping to run hard gets the extra tug on the bar.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:24 pm 
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this is my tining map the pass 3 year
Image
set up is turbo evo3 ,big intercooler , JE piston 8.5 to 1 ,fuel 91 octane ,550 cc injector


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:51 am 
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Thank you "Serious GT"!

You have lower CR than me, but also run on slightly lower Octane.
Canada seems to be AKI so 91 octane is close to 95 RON here in Sweden I. I run on 99 octane RON.

Very helpful for comparison. I think I will retard some more @ high revs under boost.

t3 ragtop wrote:
peter, i wondered what the 48* was about.

The 48 was just an adjustment I made in the "low load / high rpm" area of the map it is not an interesting area when it comes to knock (I dont think so at least).

Ill post the new map as soon as I have had time to do the adjustments.

/peter


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:12 pm 
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i'm no G13B specialist, but you might want to pull some more timing in high boost areas. 1 deg per psi is a good rule of thumb, but you can't forget the fact that you're still on stock compression ratio. the more boost you throw at it, you need to pull more and more timing until a point the fuel just won't do it. (then you need to either lower CR or raise the octane rating)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:33 pm 
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I am not planning to run more boost than the 7psi on this engine. I am building a new one with lower CR for next year. The new one will hopefully provide around 200 reliable bhp for street and trackday use. That one will be dyno tuned.

I beleive that you are right about retarding more during boost. Here is the new adjusted map. Backed off 1 deg per psi of boost from the base timing.

I know that there are many experienced people on the forum that can judge if this is a reasonable ignition map to start with for a 10:1 G13B engine. Anything I should to change?

Please feel free to comment in the thread, or send me a PM.

/Peter

Attachment:
Sparkadvance 100908.jpg
Sparkadvance 100908.jpg [ 99.33 KIB | Viewed 4333 times ]

Attachment:
Sparkadvance 3D 100908.jpg
Sparkadvance 3D 100908.jpg [ 65.85 KIB | Viewed 4333 times ]


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:47 pm 
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Why dont you get a mls gasket to solve your headgasket problem??? You can get them from strider for about $120 i think it was. MLS is better then oringing your head. Nice build by the way. Thanks Stephen


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:47 am 
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I have pitting of the pistons below the plugs. I have interpreted that as an indication for detonation and I think that that is the main problem to solve. I know that my fuelling is as rich as is reasonable without loosing power. That is why I am aiming for the ignition advance curve.

If there is no detonation I think the headgasket will hold. It is probably good that the headgsket blew. It saved the rest of the engine.

/Peter


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:40 am 
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Talking to stephennmm about detonation is like talking to a brick wall, ask him how long the plugs in his nitrous motor lived...:roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:52 am 
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You haven't indicated what fuel you are using. For example I have attached a ignition map for a previous setup of mine (9psi) on 95 RON fuel (~AKI 90).

You will notice the big hole around 5000rpm in the map at max torque (and max volumetric efficiency). Perhaps consider pull a little timing around that point?


Attachments:
Ignition map.jpg [70.52 KIB]
Downloaded 1786 times

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Last edited by FlyingGrape on Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:21 am 
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here's what I put in a turbo build I did, but this car never gets used much. I think it did about 100 km in 2 years. use at your own risk :lol: it has a separate idle table so don't look at the high numbers in this table at idle.
Attachment:
File comment: stock G13B, 10:1 CR 7 psi boost
phil spark.jpg [38.92 KIB]
Downloaded 1834 times

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:04 pm 
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FlyingGrape wrote:
You haven't indicated what fuel you are using. For example I have attached a ignition map for a previous setup of mine (9psi) on 95 RON fuel (~AKI 90).

You will notice the big hole around 5000rpm in the map at max torque (and max volumetric efficiency). Perhaps consider pull a little timing around that point?


I run on 99 RON, but for some reason your attachment does not show in the post.

/Peter


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:55 am 
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Oops! :oops: Sorry about that. Post updated. That should be reasonable ignition map then, bit of room to move.

I note you mentioned you have been running mid 11 AFR's. The guy I do my dyno tuning with generally aimed for around 11.8 for a safe tune and I have another map I use which is closer to 12.2. I actually ended up running this one as a daily and never had issues. Your setup is quite different so dont know how effective the cooling is on your car but on standard GTi's never had any issues.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:20 am 
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Thank you FlyingGrape, and thanks turbohull!

FlyingGrape: Just to be sure. Is that map for a CR 10:1 engine?

The cooling should be kind of ok on the seven. During trackdays I have seen temperatures of up to 100C in the logs. It is not much room under the nosecone, but i have managed to fit radiators both for the engine, and chargecooler and also an oil cooler. Still with decent airflow.

I have since then changed thermostats to one with lower opening temp. If the cooling is enough the temps should go down with the new thermostat, if the engine is limited by the cooling capacity the temps will stay in the 100C area. I have not tested this new thermostat on a track yet.

For the new engine next year I am thinking about how I shall get a little more heat out. Probably increased thickness of the radiator.

/Peter


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:37 am 
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Yep, absolutely bog standard engine and internals.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:23 pm 
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Pulled some timing around 5k rpm. Not quite as much as FlyingGrape but I'll be very careful listening for detonation in the 5000rpm area.

Looking at the maps in this thread, I realize that my initial map was far too much advanced. No wonder the gaskets blew.

Comments anyone?

Attachment:
Sparkadvance 100910.jpg
Sparkadvance 100910.jpg [ 99.16 KIB | Viewed 4230 times ]

Attachment:
Sparkadvance 3D 100910.jpg
Sparkadvance 3D 100910.jpg [ 43.59 KIB | Viewed 4229 times ]


/Peter


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:25 am 
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Location: slovakia
Hello!
Im from slovakia and i has very bad english bud i hope you can help me.
I build a G13B engine for my 4x4 suzuki swift and i dont use the original ignition.
I have a programmable unit but I do not know what values ​​i must to enter.
I search o lot but I cant found the original ignition table.
Can you help me with this?
I know that the original values ​​are not good for me but I use them only as a basis, for starting the engine.
Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:48 pm 
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Id still take out more timing at mid load throughout rpm range...35*@50%load is alot..especially at rpm...i will be in the low 20s at 50% when i begin setting my ign tables..my blown combo was locked at 15...my base maps will probably look like this reguard less of rpm...:

0% load- idle-15*...
0% load-35* all in by 2300..
25% load-30*
50% load-22-25*
75% load-18-22*
100% load(full boost)-13*-18*...

Way more conservative...and im on vitaras..

These are efficiant chambers with your high compression wont require a ton of timing..


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Didnt see you were on 100 octaine...on 100 oct. Id move my maps up by 5* for starters..go from there..knock sensor amp will be nice..


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