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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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 Post subject: G1.0 turbo specifics
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:25 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Arkansas
Hi Guys,

I've been reading tons of the turbo threads all morning. I think I have a pretty good handle on most things, but I have just a couple of quick questions.

First, some background info; bone stock '95 Geo 1.0, was N/A motor, low miles, now has my Garrett GT1544 turbo installation. I made the header, outlet, small glasspack muffler, TBI tophat. It has a Sprint intercooler, and an eBay tubing kit. I added a mild cam and 6 degree mod cam gear. I also have a recommended Walbro fuel pump.
For instrumentation I have a digital Boost, a digital EGT, and a digital wideband AFR gages. The Boost and the EGT gages each have a programmable alarm function.
I don't want any more than 8 psi. I'm not trying to build a racecar, just something that accelerates well for getting on freeways, etc.

I will be doing the CTS Mod, and I have the 5K pot. I know how to hook it up, no problems there.

Here's one question; Since I can easily program the EGT gage alarm function, does anyone have a specific temperature that the EGT gage should be set at to turn on the CTS Mod. In other words....at what temperature rise would a guy have to start worrying about the motor running too lean?
Same basic question regarding the boost gage....is there a specific boost level where I should want the CTS Mod to be 'On'. We're talking stock ECU, mild boost. I expect the stock ECU will handle up to 5 psi, or so, but at what boost level should I start getting involved? 4 PSI?? 4.5? Anything over 5? Any thoughts?


Thanks for your help, Dudley


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 Post subject: Re: G1.0 turbo specifics
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:48 pm 
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there have been a couple of guys who boosted their normally aspirated g10 engines as you describe. while i can't just pop links up for you, the threads are readily available by using the search button at the top of the page.

it has been a while, but i think one was built by member m3 and another by member z34-5speed.

fuel control will be your demon and the little 3 banger's fuel pump definitely isn't up to the task of supplying fuel for even light pressure turbocharging.

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
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My Photo Gallery
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 Post subject: Re: G1.0 turbo specifics
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:25 pm
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Location: Arkansas
the threads are readily available by using the search button at the top of the page.
Not exactly! I've searched now for several hours. I've searched dozens of threads. No, I still haven't found one post where someone said "X number of degrees is a great temperature for fast cruising. I did see where one guy said something about 1250 F was a good temp. My guess is 1250, but I was hoping someone who knows could substantiate that.

[i]fuel control will be your demon and the little 3 banger's fuel pump definitely isn't up to the task of supplying fuel [/i]

Yeah, I heard, that's why I said I had a Walbro fuel pump. I read quite awhile back where someone sugggested a good Walbro model, and that's the one I got.

Yes, I read all about M3's turbo install. This where I got a lot of my tips, etc.

I guess what I could do is just start revving the engine until it shows 8 PSI boost, and watch the EGT and AFR. I'd imagine it ought to be fairly apparent when the turbo needs more fuel.
If it happens at 4.8 pounds boost, then I know where to begin. If it's at 5.3 pounds, then I'll have a different entry point.

Thanks for the help, T3

Dudley


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 Post subject: Re: G1.0 turbo specifics
PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:33 am 
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dragsterdudley wrote:
the threads are readily available by using the search button at the top of the page.
Not exactly! I've searched now for several hours. I've searched dozens of threads. No, I still haven't found one post where someone said "X number of degrees is a great temperature for fast cruising. I did see where one guy said something about 1250 F was a good temp. My guess is 1250, but I was hoping someone who knows could substantiate that.

[i]fuel control will be your demon and the little 3 banger's fuel pump definitely isn't up to the task of supplying fuel [/i]

Yeah, I heard, that's why I said I had a Walbro fuel pump. I read quite awhile back where someone sugggested a good Walbro model, and that's the one I got.

Yes, I read all about M3's turbo install. This where I got a lot of my tips, etc.

I guess what I could do is just start revving the engine until it shows 8 PSI boost, and watch the EGT and AFR. I'd imagine it ought to be fairly apparent when the turbo needs more fuel.
If it happens at 4.8 pounds boost, then I know where to begin. If it's at 5.3 pounds, then I'll have a different entry point.

Thanks for the help, T3

Dudley



Thats a safe exhaust temp. Stock fuel pump is fine for 8psi.

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MT Motorsport
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Mk1 3cyl - 185whp/150ftlbs - 1/4mile 13.97@103mph


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 Post subject: Re: G1.0 turbo specifics
PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:27 am 
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hey tim, by stock fuel pump, are you talking about the tiny normally aspirated g10 fuel pump?

i couldn't get that one to behave with either a twincam or a turbo3 conversion. the gt pump works okay with a non-turbo twincam or the turbo3 running in it's stock configuration (and maybe a bit of additional boost.)

maybe firing the single tb injector is different. i've never gone there. firing the 3 210cc/min injectors on the turbo3, the stock n/a pump supply starts to fall flat as rpms come up. remember that it has to maintain adequate flow at 36.2 psi above manifold pressure to satisfy the turbo3. again, maybe the single tb injector operation would be different.

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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 Post subject: Re: G1.0 turbo specifics
PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:37 am 
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The stock pump is fine. It's a low pressure pump.

The TBI system regulator is 10 psi, whereas the TPI is 36. The little pump will make 36, but practically dead headed.

I would set the CTS mod to come in at about 2-3 psi, then bring it up .5 at a time, and watch your gauges. If you dial in too much fuel, it will stumble on activation.

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 Post subject: Re: G1.0 turbo specifics
PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:25 pm
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Location: Arkansas
Thanks guys for the replies. Whether the stock fuel pump was ok or not, I already went ahead and got the Walbro installed. Maybe I didn't need to...I don't know. But it's already done.

Also, thanks for the tuning tips. Here's what I've come up with, so maybe a couple of you really sharp guys can comment if I'm on the right path, or at least on an 'acceptable' path.

All along, I WAS going to install a 5K pot for the CTS Mod. I planned on having it kick in after boost hits a certain pre-set number. Then, I got to thinking....since I have digital EGT and Boost gages, with the programmable alarm features, why not have the EGT alarm simply light a bright LED if the temp rises above...say 1270F? {Initially, I don't worry about the boost gage's alarm, at least until I learn what the stock ECU can or can't handle.} (this last comment is based on the stock ECU being able to cover the AFR mostly on it's own. I should be able to see where the stock ECU AFR comes up short. During the testing phase, I should be able to get a good feel for what it is capable of handling by watching the AFR & EGT. )
With my PLX wideband O2 sensor, and the digital boost and EGT gages, I should be able to stay out of hot water, you'd think!!)

Anyway, back to my thinking. I think rather than set the CTS Mod up with a 5K pot, (which I already have, BTW), instead, I'm going to try a 12 position rotary switch (with 2 decks, the 2nd deck is for indictor lights).
In reading Superf1y's write-up on the CTS Mod, and studying the sender's resistance at various temps on that chart, I think 12 "fixed" settings ought to be able to be okay with the CTS. I have the 12 positions initially set-up like this;
#1 solid wire, 0 ohms (the 'unaltered from stock' position)
#2 22 ohms
#3 68 ohms
#4 150 ohms
#5 330 ohms
#6 470 ohms
#7 680 ohms
#8 1000 ohms
#9 1470 ohms
#10 2200 ohms
#11 3300 ohms
#12 5600 ohms

Note how as I rotate to the next position, the resistance gets bigger and bigger per pole. So, here's how I'm envisioning my initial testing, after I get everything running okay; I'm cruising along in low power settings....everything in the green!!! So, I punch it and get onto boost, maybe enough where the EGT start climbing a bit. Blink!! EGT finally got hot enough (at 1270F) where it kicks on the visual alarm LED!! No problems, tho. I simply reach over and turn the rotary one click. But, the light is still on. One more click...it's still on. Ok, let's keep going...click, click, presto!! EGT alarm light just went off!!! Right?? I mean, if I'm in the vicinity of 7-8 PSI boost, and I keep adding progressively higher resistance to the CTS, eventually my EGT will drop, wouldn't it? At some point, the next click will be enough resistance to add that extra fuel to cool the EGT back down, I would think.
Then, say I pull off the freeway, and don't need any CTS mod stuff anymore, I just turn the CTS rotary switch all the way back to pos #1. Oh, BTW, as I mentioned, I am going to light an LED for each and every one of the 12 positions. I'm going to have a vertical line of 12 LEDs, always showing me where the CTS Mod is. One LED will always be lit, indicating one of the 1-12 position of the switch.
I've already built the resistors box. I also wired it to my 12 position switch, but it turns out my switch is not the right kind (it was a 4 pole 12 pos, no good for my purposes) I found the right one, and have it on order.

Does anyone see any problems with my approach?

Would it not be a good way to keep the EGT in check, by watching the EGT alarm light? If it lights up, simply click the rotary switch up a notch.

Thanks, Dudley


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 Post subject: Re: G1.0 turbo specifics
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:59 pm 
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well, that get up will keep you busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. :lol:

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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 Post subject: Re: G1.0 turbo specifics
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:25 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Arkansas
I understand your thoughts, t3, but how would the potentiometer be any different, or better?? You still have to fiddle with it with several boost levels, would ya? I thought that once I learn the system, I'd be able to yank the 12 pos switch a heckava lot faster than turning a variable dial? No?

My question is; how obvious is it and what are the specific results when the boost exceeds the stock ECU's ability to control the AFR? This is my first "home-made" turbo installation, but I thought if you went beyond the stock ECU, the EGT would climb, and the AFR would become lean. If I had an alarm to tell me this, and a couple of quick clicks fixed it, it seems fairly simple. Maybe not??

At any rate, I guess I'll proceed this direction and report the results. If it doesn't work out as planned, I'll let you know!! Thanks!

Dudley


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 Post subject: Re: G1.0 turbo specifics
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:25 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Arkansas
After rereading my lengthy post, I can see where you think it would be "busy". But, I think you are envisioning a lot different driving than I expect. I'm not planning a road rally or stuff like that. My racing days are long gone!! I'm picturing extended freeway on-ramps, and long steep grades. These are the usual shortcomings of my previously N/A 3 cyl.

If my stock ECU can handle 4-5 PSI boost, then I would bet that that would solve 95% of my boost needs. On the rare-(ish) occations when I want all the boost I can muster, I would think an alarm saying 'turn in some predetermined CTS Mod resistance' should work.

This is all conjecture for me at this point. Once I get the engine running, I'll should be able to analyze the capabilites of the stock ECU, then I'll know how better to proceed. I think virtually EVERYTHING depends on what I end up needing from this new little turbo, and what the stock ECU can handle.


Thanks, Dudley


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