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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:56 am 
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Thank you for your funny comments top down@-40! :D They are appreciated as well! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:10 pm 
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You're welcome. I have nothing constructive to add but I just had to comment because you're doing what many of us here can only dream about (for now at least). This thread should help any who follow wanting to bring a Swift "to life". Your thread along with a few others are great reference material and really help those of us less gifted at "putting it all together". I can't wait to see the final products. Thank you.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:17 pm 
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30psi is seldom attained on a fully warmed up GTI but not very often, even at hi revs. You might want to use heavier oil grade in order to keep a steady pressure but also to prevent the top end from suffering from oil starvation.

The GT2554R is an excellent turbo but I don't think it will support 270hp on the G13B. If you are really aiming for that much power, then the 2860 would be more appropriate. Do not solely rely on Garrett estimates when it comes to max power output. There are too many variables that will impede on turbo performance.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:24 pm 
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I have 440cc injectors in it right now that had no problem with 15-20psi on the 1.3 that was in it befor. Im going up to 750cc now also just to be safe with a megasquirt controlling them. The coils is what has been changed since last time and if you pull the plugsthere is nowsigns of fire even with a .017 gap. I had trouble finding any info on them as far as set up so im going to ls1 coils which all the specs are very well known and the setup also as far as dwell and ms.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:53 am 
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Thank you top down@-40, thank you! :oops:

Jardamuth
In the factory service manual we saw that the oil pressure is about 3,8 bar on a warmed up GTi. We also made some measures at the exhaust camshaft on a GTi engine that was in average condition, On a cold engine at idle speed the pressure was 4-5bar and at 3000-4000 rpm it was 5-6bar. On a warmed up engine we got these numbers: at idle speed the pressure was 1,5-2 bar and at 3000-4000 rpm it was 2,5-3 bar. As I have mentioned these were measured at the camshaft where the oil pressure is a bit lower. Because the pressure is supposedly higher at the place where the jets are installed, we thought that they would be open as soon as you turn the engine on. We used 10W40 oil during these measures.

You are right again! We are going to use 10W60 oil in the turbocharged engines! :)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:48 pm 
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Such high readings are unforessen to me, be it a new, used or rebuilt engine.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:17 pm 
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What size injectors are you going to be running??? And what computer??? Im wondering why use the stock main bolts when you have that much money in the motor instead of using some arp main studs for reasurace??? And what oil pump are you going to run 1.3 or 1.6??? Thanks Stephen


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:16 am 
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These are the injectors we use: Denso 560cc (Mitsubishi Evo IX).

The AWD car's ECU will be a Motec M4 while the FWD one will use VEMS. I do not know if you are familiar with this brand, so here is the website of the company:

http://www.vems.hu/

Just a piece of information: during the King of Europe event in 2007 a Vems powered racecar could repeat 8,6 sec runs on 402m. So it has a well-tested technology and is not that bad. We use brand new SGP 1.6 oil pump. Regarding the bolts I have to say that we did not see it important to change them.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:20 pm 
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Ok I did it just for the sheer peace of mind. Plus it couldnt hurt any. Thanks Stephen


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:23 am 
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beautiful build. this will be the way i will go on my next 1.3....pauter rods and wiescos...

my father was a machinest and a highvolume wiesco dealer...we did alot of watercraft and big bore setups for sportbikes using sunnen equipment, and i must say wiescos are the finest pistons ive ever used. very nice.

care to share where you sourced your big valves, and seats?
ive been following this build both here and over on redline. look forward to the results!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:13 pm 
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Thank you rtsblwn! :)
The whole cylinder head has been ported and polished, all the ports have been enlarged, but we do not use oversized valves just the standard GTi valves.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:24 pm 
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Ronne wrote:
The whole cylinder head has been ported and polished, all the ports have been enlarged, but we do not use oversized valves just the standard GTi valves.


Wise man 8)

Lots of people are going with oversized valves only to end up restricting the flow.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:38 pm 
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I think I might take a spare head with me as luggage on my next trip to Europe....

Ronne wrote:
TheSilverBullet: It took about 16-18 man-hours to do the port and polish. Benefit? If you want to know the number of horsepowers it results I have to say: I do not know. Porting improves the quality and quantity of air flow in the head which brings the engine to a higher level of efficiency. Port grinding and polishing smoothes the internal surfaces of the inlet and exhaust ports, allowing air to pass through with less resistance. We just wanted the engine to be ready for a bigger turbo if we choose to go for a bigger one in the future. Cost of tools? You can do the work with a good quality drill so if you had one, it is perfect for that. The grinding/polishing heads cost about 100 dollars here in Hungary.

Jardamuth: Thank you! Your kind words are worthy for us since we know the name of 'Turbine Tech' very well. The AWD car's manifold was bought from you in 2008! :) You have a sharp eye: as you say the AWD car's turbo is a VF38. The FWD one will have a Garrett GT2554R. On the website of the company they say that using this turbo can result a maximum of 270 horsepowers. We would be very happy with that. What do you think of the Garrett?

Many thanks for your suggestion! You are right, it can be that swapping to the bigger turbo is a better option. We will see the end result when the car is ready. If the turbo is not good enough for this application, we will see what we can get instead of it. The car won't be used for racing, reliability and durability are also important. This is the reason for the choice of the Garrett GT2554.

Any of your remarks in connection with the buildup will be welcome in the future as well!

To answer your question: the jets open at the pressure level of about 30psi/2bar. So we can say that they open as soon as you turn the engine on.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:48 pm 
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good to know...must be my eyeball. things look significantly better(bigger!). id imagine a larger valve could potentially kill off some tq and probably ruin a perfectly good short side port radius. thanks


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:28 am 
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Jardamuth wrote:
Ronne wrote:
The whole cylinder head has been ported and polished, all the ports have been enlarged, but we do not use oversized valves just the standard GTi valves.


Wise man 8)

Lots of people are going with oversized valves only to end up restricting the flow.


:oops: :wink:
ellpee wrote:
I think I might take a spare head with me as luggage on my next trip to Europe....


Do you want us to make a copy of our cylinder head for you or you just think that we made such a bad work that you have to bring us a new head to put on the block? :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:21 am 
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We reconsidered our point of view regarding the bolts - thank you again for your advice stephennmm! As you wrote, we did it just for the sheer peace of mind. We did not want to wait for ARP bolts to arrive so we decided to try to find another solution. We have found some 12.9 bolts that would be just perfect to be the crankshaft bolts - they are as strong as the ARP but they were a lot cheaper (around 5,5 USD for a set of them while a set of ARPs costs about 120 USD). They are 5mm longer and 1mm thicker than the factory ones.
Here are some pictures:

Attachment:
Kép 064.jpg
Kép 064.jpg [ 582.27 KIB | Viewed 1781 times ]

Attachment:
Kép 069.jpg
Kép 069.jpg [ 467.85 KIB | Viewed 1775 times ]


Factory bolts - the new bolts - ARP head studs:

Attachment:
Kép 07011.jpg
Kép 07011.jpg [ 675.13 KIB | Viewed 1781 times ]

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:30 pm 
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nice!
so many people bitch about the cast hollow cranks...but so many aftermarket bbc and sbc cranks from scat, lunati, blah, blah, are hollow journal partially counterweighted cranks (although useually forged) that can handle lots of abuse. i never hear of crank induced engine failures at any power level or rpm on g series suzuki's....the cast aluminum main caps scare me more than these cranks do..i think hitting the cast sections with a flap wheel to clean the flash and a shot peen before regrind/ polish would make for a nice piece. i bet your crank will do 300hp all day.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:11 pm 
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We need to find out what material these cranks are actually made of. I took mine to a few machine shops and none of them and anything to test them with to tell exactly but they were guessing nodular iron with the ring that it made. If that is true it shouldnt have any problems. And as far as it being hallow i have heard both sides of it. From a machining stand point it is stronger because the hat treating gets all the way through. And from what i have been told top fuel axles were hallow to sace weight and because they can be heat treated in and out. Dont know if thats true or not though. But a solid crank is still soft inside so others say even soft the material still adds strength. Either way think of them as a tube. What is easier to bend a thick walled pipe or a solid rod of the same material and diameter??? usually the solid is easier to bend. Im not sure wat the stock main bolt grade is but those should be about the same just make sure they dont strech. The arp is a bit harder still. I think the 8.8 was like 180000 tinsile strength and arp is like 220000. I dont remember though but it should still help. Thanks Stephen


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:07 pm 
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And those are a good hard washer so they dont crush and loosen on you right??? thanks stephen


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:22 pm 
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http://www.tessco.com/yts/customerservi ... _grade.pdf look at this. I think you might want to just wait on some arp studs. According to this 8.8 is only 120,000 compared to a 220,000. Hopefully this will help you decide. Thanks Stephen


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:13 am 
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stephennmm wrote:
http://www.tessco.com/yts/customerservice/techsupport/whitepapers/pdf/bolt_grade.pdf look at this. I think you might want to just wait on some arp studs. According to this 8.8 is only 120,000 compared to a 220,000. Hopefully this will help you decide. Thanks Stephen


Hi, these ones are 12.9 ones, and 1 mm thicker, because the thread is not cut, but mangled., like in the case of the wheelstuds.

About the continous whining about the "weak" G16 crank, there is serious darkness in the heads about different forging techniques, even about the meaning of the word "forged". I'm also not an expert in metallurgie, but we took our cranks to several workshops, talks a lot with honda guys, and learn that the D16 crank is made from the same material and with the same method as the G16, and if we used the common meaning of forged, they are not even near to the G13B, the B16 or the 4AGE. So switch from G16 crank to D16 is meaningless, but expensive, like drivin a VW VR6, which consumes a lot fuel but runs like shit. Plus, its not a common info, when some geekboy drives a D16 like a B16, and rev the hell out of them, the cylinder wall will wear to hell in no time, and takes the shape of a barrel.

Also, the G16 crank IS forged in some way, like any cranks, and also heat treated in the journals, because without it, it would wear after the third rotation. When we were searching for usable blocks and cranks, my pal measured around 15 blocks and only two of them were in so bad condition to worth overboring, the other ones are way under the factory tolerance. In the case of the cranks, it takes over two weeks to choose, because he had to measeure them over and over again, we want best and the nearest bearing sizes, and after a hundred failers, he realized that he mischecked the sizes, because he counts them to 0.001 mm, and the the factory tolerance is in the 0.01 mm range. He checked more than 10 cranks, all of them had more than 100k kms, and none of them show any sign of wear. Even the bearings were all ok, we replaced them only because all other parts were replaced. And I can tell, here in Hungary, these cars are worth shit and threated like shit. After 92', lot of them was used by old farts who switches from a lada or some other eastern garbage, and said "Hey if the mineral 20W oil is good for them, it will be good for a suzie too, car is car". There were even so dumb old bastard who thinks is like a trabant or wartburg with a 2 stroke engine, and didn't replace the oil for 50k kms. In junkyards, 1.0 and 1.6 engines are in heaps, because they are runs even after the chassis were rotten to hell over them. Even the 8V 1.3 has failures because of the cheap, turkish aftermarket cast pistons which used by Hungarian Suzuki after 96', and they has a habit to broke into pieces or loose the piston skirt.

By the way, there is huge differences between true forged cranks, some of them made by CNC machined from a piece of forged material, and then heat treated in some points, some other made by tons of pressure from heated material, but the degree of the heating is also differs from manufacturer to manufacturer. Plus, in the case of steel or aluminium, forged means things, even forged rims and forged pistons made in completely different ways and from different materials.

Like rtsblwn said earlier, nothing wrong with the factory G16 crank, after we talked about around twenty people all over the world, we realized every blown G16 DOHC was because of the weak factory conrods or the cheap-ass chinese bearings, and in some cases, because of serious dumbness. Nearly all broken cranks was happen because the factory rods, because the G16 has a 90mm stroke, which is extremely long in this category, the C4 corvette has a similar stroke, a B16 or a 4AGE has way shorter, around 77mm. When the factory rod breaks or bends, in NA engines around 8k rpm, in supercharged engines over 0,5 bar of boost, they have a lot of time and space to hit the cylinder wall, take some grip, and the bend or break the crank, or break the engine block to half. Sad but true, you cannot build a castle from warm shit, a 1.6 DOHC needs forged rods. In the case of the pistons, I know hondas with factory vitara pistons over 400HP, and if you don't have enough fuel or spark, you have few seconds with a cast piston and a couple more with a forged one before everything goes up in smoke. But, 500$ for a set of Wiseco pistons with rings and every necessary piece is cheaper then a set of naked factory pistons, so why not?

So, for a build like that, you'll need money, of course, but also you have to use you head and dig every infos in the topic, and even after that, it's possible that you fry the whole stuff. For me, it takes around 3 years to get all the informations, money and parts, and I can tell you, I'm not a mama's boy or someone who cuts the others throat for 1$, just a guy whith 12-14 working hours in every day of the week, and my pal too.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:07 am 
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Nice post. And sorry for some reason i thought you said 8.8 and wa just trying to look out. Im still waiting on someone to show a broken crank from the crank itself stressing and bending like has been said on this forum or actually breaking. I understand fully what you are talking abot same thing i did here. I have almost $300 in my x beam rods mde to fit the suzuki. I got them for nothing bcause of a spun rod bearing and the honda rods can easilly be made to fit the suzuki. And using the honda pistons would give close to same cp as what you guys did. But a set of eagals could be made fit for under $400 still so there is a cheap option now. One thing i would like to see made that i think would ease my mind and would help a bit is a better main girdle. Ours helps dont get me wrong i rather it then nothing but i would like to see a stronger one made that when you bump it on anything in dont bend like these. Im hoping if work dont go to bad this weekend to get my car running again and start tuning and ill let you guys know some numbers and let you know if i find any weak points out the hard way so you guys dont have it happen. thanks Stephen


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:33 am 
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stephennmm wrote:
Nice post. And sorry for some reason i thought you said 8.8 and wa just trying to look out. Im still waiting on someone to show a broken crank from the crank itself stressing and bending like has been said on this forum or actually breaking. I understand fully what you are talking abot same thing i did here. I have almost $300 in my x beam rods mde to fit the suzuki. I got them for nothing bcause of a spun rod bearing and the honda rods can easilly be made to fit the suzuki. And using the honda pistons would give close to same cp as what you guys did. But a set of eagals could be made fit for under $400 still so there is a cheap option now. One thing i would like to see made that i think would ease my mind and would help a bit is a better main girdle. Ours helps dont get me wrong i rather it then nothing but i would like to see a stronger one made that when you bump it on anything in dont bend like these. Im hoping if work dont go to bad this weekend to get my car running again and start tuning and ill let you guys know some numbers and let you know if i find any weak points out the hard way so you guys dont have it happen. thanks Stephen


We considered the same about the rods, the first idea was to use the 5th oversized bearings to adapt the honda rods to the G16 crank, but such bearings wont exist only in junk-tech, and even ACL Racing is not as good as the factory SGP bearings. Plus, from ACL, only the Liana's main bearing can be us for the G16, but the only bearings which is similar to the rod bearings is the Daihatsu 800ccm engines main bearings, which can be only order in chinese aftermarket, so deadend again. After that, I found some 4AGE bearings, but they were 2mm narrower than the swift ones, so the full honda rod project starts to look a bit expensive. OK, then we found a workshop where the guys can made the +1 mm job on the crank, but it would cost around 300$ for the normal, hard steel powdered to around 40-45 rockwell hardness, and around 600$ for the harder, hybrid metal-ceramic to achieve 60-65 rockwells. And the problem was, OK, the surface will be hard as superman's dick, but what about under it? What if the cementized layer breaks from the rod journal? No warranty. And the final thing was that the honda rods are shorter, about 2 mms than the swift ones. This would lowers the CR to around 7:1, maximum 7,5:1. To compensate this, you need custom pistons, or to mill the block to hell, this will put your timing to neverland, replace the tensioner, bla bla bla. Solve one problem, three others born. Plus, Eagle is made in the US, but the material which they used was from china or korea. So, Eagle off, relatively cheap and so-so good rods, but the machinework to use them will be expensive and considerable. Then, what about swift rods? Spool was for around 600$, PPM Racing too, I avoided noname ebay H-Beam rods, but for some years, I constanly lurking around Pauter's site, I know they've done lots of crazy shit, plus the material which they used is A+. So, I ordered two set around christmas, for nearly 1500$ with shipping to NY. It takes 5 weeks to fabricate them, and another 4 to get them here in Europe, but it worth the time and the money. And even if they costs 2 times as a set of eagle, the result will be cheaper and better.

PS: about the CR calculations. Internet CR calculators worth shit. I used 3 of them, gave 3 different result. OK, elementary school mathematics, lets calculate. First thing was, I didn't know the cubic capacity of the head. On the forums, I read anything from 20 to 36 ccm, so I made different calculations. The piston dome's capacity was in Wiseco's catalog, bore and stroke known, so, lets start. Ah....and what about the head gasket? OK, calculate again. Ops....G13 pistons goes up to deck level, G16 under 0,8mm. Calculate again. D16 pistons has different height then swift factory ones. Again. Again. And we not even talked about thermic strech, the rods dynamic strech when you rev up, bearing tolerances, these gives another hefty 0.001 mms to the calculations. After some hours, and 5-6 A4 pages, the final result born: with 75.5 oversized bore, standard G16 stroke, factory untouched head on,gasket on, wiseco pistons, etc etc, the CR will be 8.49:1. Yeah baby..I'm a math genius. Aha...bbbbbbbullshit. After the parts arrived, we redone the calculations with the best method: block and head on the table, rods and pistons in, and fill them with oil. Counts with the gasket too, one row of calculation on a dirty piece of cardboard box, and the final and good result was...9,5:1.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:57 am 
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Some corrections, because we considered so many parts and methods over the years that I started to confuse things:

For a G16 crank - Honda rod hybrid, the 800ccm Daewoo Matiz's main crank bearings are suitable, not some Daihatsu ones as I mentioned ealrier. But we dont have much faith in them, because these are from an around 40 HP car, and we dont think that they can withstand a 5-6x more power. Plus, as in the case of the G16, only the factory bearings or cheap aftermarket ones exist. Or you can use 4th oversize G16 bearing, not the 5th, because the increments are in 0,25mms, but such bearing exist only from....King.

The Liana's ACL Racing main crank bearings are suitable for the G16 crank, but the rod bearings doesnt, the 4AGE ones are similar, but narrower, this is why we choose SGP ones.

And one final thing about King bearings: the main problem with them is that they are too soft. In ideal circumstances, the crank and the rod never contacts physically, because of the oil film on them, and fluids of course arent compressable. Problem is, that the first few rotation runs on only a thin oil film, because the oil pressure builds up after a few moments of cranking with a good oil pump, but thats a lot of time with bad or such soft bearings. So, when the crank runs "dry", the King or similar, not enough hard bearing's surface are damaged badly, and thats not the only problem which they cause, the small metal scales are taken by the oil flow and reach the oil pump, even the camshafts, and every other place in the engine.

So, I think good bearings are much cheaper than a complete overhaul, even cheaper than a prelube or an accusump system. We also have another project car, a Chevrolet Spint turbo. Its engine was way over 200k km, so the previous owner replace it with a NA 1.0 engine block, rebuilt it with king bearings, mahle pistons, etc etc, and put the old one into the trunk. After we aquire the car, and checks the engines, we realized that even the factory, worn-to-hell one is in better shape than the freshly built one, which rans only around 20k km. Of course, there are several problems with the old one, so we overbored it to 75, used G16A pistons and G13B GTI rods, bigger IC, etc etc, but thats another story.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:18 pm 
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typically forged cranks can be identified against a cast crank by the wide parting line. cast have sharp cast parting lines.


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