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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:35 am 
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I was wondering if it is possible/recommended to use a Toms II chip and a wet nitrous kit on my gti.... Any disadvantages to this kind o set up?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:57 am 
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My first thought was to tell you that this was a terrible idea, but maybe not.

The main issue would be with the additional timing in the maps--I know less about tuning for Nitrous, but you definitely want to back off for a turbo setup. There's not so much additional advance that you might not be able to get away with just backing off the timing at the distributor to compensate, however.

On the other hand, Tom's II has more advance in the bottom end, so it's possible the tune would just fall flat at high rpm when you do that. Presumably, if you are running a wet kit, then there's enough fuel and you just need to worry about whether you're getting the right amount of fuel when you are not on the bottle. Depending on what else you've done to the car the chip might work better than stock or it might not. If you're looking for only a higher rev limit, I can hook you up with a stock chip with a higher limit, or whatever custom maps you need.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:29 am 
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Thanks for the quick reply. At present the car has only a few mods: k&n filter, 2"press bend exhaust (no cat, no resonator) and stock muffler, a lightened under drive pulley, and the toms II chip. Happy with the results so far. But im looking to go faster. I have a wet kit on my other car (ZC31S) and was wondering if i could swap it over to the gti. My other question would be whether the chip can be used in a low boost (5-6psi) turbo setup.... And what do the turbo guys do about the stock gti gearbox? All advice is welcome!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:20 pm 
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Tom's II is NOT a turbo chip.

If you are going to do all the work to turbocharge your car, do it right and and tune it. You can tune the stock ECU with an emulator, get a piggyback ECU for fuel or go standalone, but I wouldn't trust any chip to get the right amount of fuel for any given turbo set up.

Garndi (GTaye on this forum) sells a turbo chip for $200, but I believe you'd nee to build to a spec sheet for it to be a good fit. I also have a turbo tune that I could burn to a chip, but it also requires an oversize Nissan MAF and other mods.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:11 am 
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Talk to gtaye about the turbo chip. It's a good chip for a small turbo setup running wastegate pressure (generally up to 7-10psi) depending on the turbo. I have used this with a couple of different turbos for a very streetable and economic setup.

Gearbox...yes well this is the GTi weakness. Decent quality turbo clutch and get good quality bearings in the gearbox. If you can afford it buy an LSD (torsen or plate better, but phantom grip style better than nothing). Learn to drive with mechanical sympathy and the gearbox will survive.

Watch out on the fueling with a turbo car. Shouldn't need another pump but be careful about adding fpr as the standard pump is close to capacity. Walbro or similar are cheap easy upgrade for intank pump.

Buy good copper spark plugs (properly gapped and regularly replace) and make sure rest of electrics (coil, leads) are in good condition. If compression of engine is good you will get plenty of miles out of the car. Make sure you do all the regular maintenance regularly as there is no doubt upping the power increases the strain on everything.

Must say that a turbo on these cars is brilliant. Really wakes them up and makes them a really quick and fun little car. Your fuel economy will be great with a small turbo too.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:04 am 
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I don't really disagree with Flying Grape, but no matter how "good" Garndi's chips are, why would you pay $200 for a tune you're stuck with vs. $175 for a Moates Ostrich emulator that can tune your stock ECU for any setup you could run short of ITBs? Yes, you also need to get a wideband to use it, but you should really do that anyway.

Also, an LSD is one of the most effective upgrades to the car for sure and becomes even more important for getting turbo power to the ground, but it will do nothing for the longevity of the trans. It's well worth taking the extra care, but an LSD puts extra stress on the trans even without a turbo.

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http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=57216


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:20 am 
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I have run the chip mentioned for two years now and love it. Yes in an ideal world every car and buildup is tuned on a dyno, but speaking from my experience(and the member I bought my kit with chip from who put a lot of miles on it before selling it), it works really well and does the job nicely. Gti turbo makes the car indescribably fun to drive, I can attest to that! I haven't had any gearbox issues yet, but I do treat my trans with lots of respect.
The LSD will help trans life, more specifically differential life. Preventing one-tire wheel spin will increase differential life and lessen the chance of diff pin breakage and going through the case.
The fuel mileage after the turbo install with chip came as quite a surprise to me, I don't feel it dropped under most driving conditions which really amazed me. My car goes a consistent 500kms per 25-30L which I'm really happy with for a car with it's power output.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:06 pm 
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Again, not bad comments, but you don't need to pay for dyno time to get a better tune with an emulator and a wideband than you would have with a chip. Don't knock street tuning--you do need dyno time to get the ultimate power at WOT (unless you have a lot of very, very empty road to play with =) )but 90% of your driving is not at WOT. Remember, I sell chips, but I tune my own car with an emulator. I've seen the difference in tuning needed for simple changes to intake tract length, geometry, and material. Idle AFR's will never, ever be quite right with a chip that forces open loop.

I do not dispute that Garndi's chips are "the best" or that many people have used them to build fast and reliable cars, but any chip is only a best, hopefully conservative, guess, unless you build to a spec sheet that the chip tune was developed for. Even then motors are just different. If you build to the specs or are very lucky, a chip can be almost perfect, but you're always either leaving power on the table or flirting with disaster and you have no flexibility to upgrade. IMO there's just no way to justify spending $200 on a chip when you can make your ECU tunable for no turbo, small turbo, big turbo, injector swaps, MAF upgrades etc. for $25 less :shock: It's not the 90's anymore. There's a better way.

I still sell chips to people with minor mods or known setups that want a bargain, but I only charge $50 because chips are $2 each and it only takes 30 min of my time to burn one. That's still a good deal for a lot of people, but not if you are going to spend the timne and $$ to build a turbo motor anyway.

And yes any good LSD will be stronger than the stock diff, but will also stress everything else in the trans more--I am not making big power and I broke an output shaft not long after installing mine. I'm not recommending that you not install one, just letting you know it won't necessarily help keep your trans together. Honestly the most fragile part of the transmission is the synchros, and synchro life has more to do with how you drive than anything else.

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Spanish Inquisition Racing chip burning service--build yourself a custom chip!
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=57216


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:28 pm 
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Tuning requires a level of knowledge. If you have that then great, do it. Is certainly what I would do, however if you don't have that knowledge then chip is plug and play.

When I talk gearbox a diff that holds the power is part of the package. Have split a hemisphere and smashed another diff (yes, pushing it too hard).

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:43 pm 
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I've had an emulator installed in my gti and tried most tunes that are out there. I timed the cars acceleration with the different chips under the same circumstances and the differences were HUGE. That's naturally aspirated... I can't even imagine with a turbo. That's why I'm really skeptical about one single chip that can be used with any compressor map out there, even if it's only up to 10PSI. So I'm gonna have to side with Teeth on this one... unless you can match the set-up of the car the chip was designed for, the wideband and emulator is the logical choice here.

My best guess is that for this universal turbo chip to work, it must have really conservative ignition and fuel maps (at the expensive of some ponies of course) to avoid failure in case of possible detonation; which would explain the good results over the years. But hey, I'm not a tuner, maybe Gtaye has really figured out the suzuki ECU (I know I was only scratching the surface) and indeed holds the formula for such a magical chip. But unless somebody can explain to me HOW such chip can really be a "one fits all piece of art", I would always choose the emulator, learn how to use it (not so hard) and tune it to fit my specific set-up.

Again, I'm not a tuner. I'm just sharing my experiences with these topic.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:38 pm 
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Thanks for the useful info. Are there any swift members using nitrous and a chip? ( I have a score to settle with a friends Ae111 levin) Please share your experience and ideas/tuning suggestions.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:08 pm 
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I don't think it makes a huge difference whether you run a chip or not with nitrous, though I'd suggest that it is better to stick with the OEM tune, especially if you haven't done much else to the motor.

A "wet" kit has it's own system for delivering and metering fuel when you hit the bottle that is more or less separate from the rest of the car's EFI system, so the tune the car is running the rest of the time shouldn't make much difference.

Likewise, any good "dry" kit uses some kind of simple "piggyback" system to "trick" the ECU into injecting more fuel to deal with the nitrous when you hit the bottle.

Anything that doesn't do one or the other is stupid, and neither method is very dependent on the tune the car is running to begin with.

The only caveat here is timing. I assume that it would probably be better to back off timing to prevent detonation while on the bottle just as you would with forced induction, but I am not aware of any good mechanism for accomplishing this. You definitely don't want to be running retarded =) timing all the time because you want the car to run normally when you're not hitting the nitrous. I believe most aftermarket kits simply over-richen the fuel mixture enough to prevent detonation, sacrificing some ponies in the name of engine safety, but here's where my NOS knowledge runs dry, as it were :blackeye: I feel that this issue makes nitrous systems a little sketchy in general, and a chip that increases advance would make any problems you'd have with knock harder to resolve--at some point I imagine that additional fuel alone would not compensate for inappropriate timing.

This is where I admit that I've never run nitrous on anything, I just know a little about tuning. Anybody with more hands on experience, please feel free to point out the error of my ways :D

As an aside, my opinion is that tuning in general is not quite the black art it used to be, provided you have a wideband O2 sensor and are vaguely computer literate.

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Quote:
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Spanish Inquisition Racing chip burning service--build yourself a custom chip!
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=57216


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:32 am 
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Thanks Teeth. Any one else have any thoughts?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:54 am 
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Avoid nitrous, go turbo. You wont regret it.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:48 am 
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FlyingGrape wrote:
Avoid nitrous, go turbo. You wont regret it.


This. Bottles are for babies. :D

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:04 am 
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i always avoid a method that requires another tank to fill. i dislike nos and water/alcohol injection for that reason. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:15 am 
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This may or may not help as I haven't looked into his posts to see everything he was running but Tom (tc2468 on the forum) ran a dry nitrous system on his car and, obviously, ran his chip too. I can't remember the differences between the original Tom's chip and the Tom's 2 chip though. As some members have said the chip shouldn't make too much a difference with a wet nitrous system as the system will have it's own injector for extra fuel (assuming your fuel pump is up to the added demand) when it's spraying. As for bottle vs turbo it's a personal preference. I can say that with a wet 75 shot on my old swift things were a lot of fun...the 100 shot was just ridiculous. A 50 shot should be safe on a relatively stock engine but to run the higher shots you'll want to spend more time tuning and optimizing the engine to handle it. Fueling will be a priority with the higher shots as a lean condition while spraying is really bad news. Look up Tom's posts (most are in the nitrous section) and maybe that'll give you some more insight.

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