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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:31 pm 
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Ok, i haven't seen my car in about 5 months so the first thing i do is go to the garage thats been working on it so i can check out my new turbo'd swift. The car looks great and sounds great. Naturally i ask if i can take it for a test drive. The mechanics say that my compression is about 10.8 and thats way to high for 8.5 psi on a daily driver. now i'm worried about it. Then they tell me not to get on it to hard cause of the compression being so high and the car not able to handle that much boost on such high compression. I say ok, and go off to drive my car. I'm so happy its almost an orgasm as soon as i take off. This is my first boosted car i've driven and i own it. Its awesome. Then i hear my BOV and its loud as hell! I couldn't be any more happier. All of a sudden i accelerate (i don't slam the pedal to the floor but i push it a little harder than normal driving). I only go to about 5,000 rpm and wow, this car is burning rubber when i hit boost and i'm in 2end gear. I can't get over how fast this car actually is. now, i'm all happy! Then all i see is a hudge pile of smoke and my car dies. I pull off to the side seeing a puddle of oil under the turbo. The garage thinks i blew a piston ring or something. I think its just a gasket. This is the first time i've driven my car in 5 months and it blows. Who is at fault? Could the garage have known anything like this would happen? They had to have gotten on it just to dyno it. What do i do? I have to be back in GA by next Monday and i need my Swift. I have one week to get this car back up and running. I need as much advice as possible! Please help!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:04 pm 
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OK, garage just called me and said they did a compression test and i'm at 80 on each cylinder. What do i do? They are telling me i need new pistons and everything. Is there a way that the garage is at fault? I don't have near enough money for a new build up. I'm so pissed off right now and i'm not sure as to what to do. I told the garage i will be in there tomorrow morning to talk about it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:49 pm 
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99 times out of 10 it will be your piston ring lands... that's pretty consistent. Your rods, crank, and whatever else should be 100% fine unless they f---d it up. Either grab another stock short block from somewhere, or put in new pistons (overbore low compression... something to that effect). Generally the whole bottom end should not need a whole rebuild. Some people get anal and do it anyway, but if you rebuild the bearings and all that too, you have to go through the break0in process. However, you should be able to grab the bottom end from someone for fairly cheap.

They did dyno it and they did show you the dyno run? What was the air/fuel ratio?What are you using for piggy-back fuel computer? What are you using for fuel rail?

If they call themselves tuers, and they can't make a GT handle 8.5psi, they are toooners not tuners. I've run 11-12psi day to day on stock compression. If they have any questions, I'd be happy to talk with them.
I don't care if someone goes to a garage, or does it themselves but you can make these cars last on even 10-11psi (minus your exhaust valves over time)... Suzuki had good combustion chamber technology for it's day, and the compression excuse is getting old. What was your static compression?

once you have another stock bottom end.
1. replace stock fuel rail if it's not already replaced
2. bump back base timing to 1 or 2 degrees
3. use proper fuel map for your MAF signal modifier that you need (LINK, APEXI, SAFC, whatever) If you need advice ask...

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:58 pm 
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Main problem of "fresh" turbo owners... Did similar thing boosting a lot over 10:1 CR swift, but only one piston died... Just too much boost without proper tuning and with high CR. I'd rather look after vitara pistons (even non original - mine last egt over 1000 deg C with no problem and haven't heard pinging at 18psi without proper fueling) and overbore block to avoid such problems... World looks better if You can fill swift with crappy fuel and run it boosted not worrying about pinging (kills pistons instantly)...
Wish You luck...

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:12 pm 
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I've never done any kind of bottum end work on any motor. All i've done is valve jobs on honda's. I don't think i would know the first thing to do about the piston install. I would also feel safer taking the car to a garage but where do i find new pistons? If i go with viatra pistons what else will need to be done otehr than install (bore, etc?)? I have an aftermarket fuel rail, injectors, & pump to go on the car but now that i have this problem i don't know what to do. the garage still has my car and i still need to pay them but i odn't know if i should. Is there not any way they could have seen this happening? All they kept saying was my high compression is horrible with 8.5 psi. I tried to tell them about you guys running 11 psi and etc but they wouldn't listen. I have to go talk to them tomorrow and i guess pay the rest of my dues but should i give them the full amount of the bill or what?

ccRacer


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:42 pm 
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Brian, I told you right from the start that you would need a bigger fuel pump, modified fuel rail, fuel pressure regulator and some kind of piggyback to handle boost. I also remember explaining you that the cams had to be replaced by the stock ones. High compression ratio is not sooo bad but there is at least some baseline and safety measures that need to be folowed. Running 8.5psi when you're not sure of anything is not a wise thing to do. I would at least have had the actuator set to something safer like 4-5psi and start from there.
It may also be just your headgasket that is blown away. So, following Whatteee's question, what is your tuner using for fuel management right now?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:25 pm 
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Jardamuth, I was hopping you would respond to this. The garage said the turbo could only go as low as 8.5 and thats why it was set there. I have an Apexi SAFC controlling the fuel. I thought maybe i just had a blown head gasket but they did a compression check and it said i was at 80 on all cyld. I guess this means they are all blown. I don't feel i should have to pay the garage the other half of the payment due to this blow up. I also have injectors, pump, and rail sitting in my passanger seat that they haven't installed yet. How could they have dyno'd & test drove my car without it blowing up on them? I think that they are at fault and not me. I'm still looking for advice on this. I have to talk to the garage on Monday and i have no clue what to say to them. I trully feel that i shouldn't have to pay the rest of the payment. What do you guys think? I need help on this fast. Thanks,
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:27 am 
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It depend how much they were charging you for the job and what was actually involved in it. Did u tell them it was mandatory to have the fuel rail replaced? how about the pump? You are the owner and should have clearly instructed them on what you wanted and what you didn't. The Apexi is no use if the injector rail is not letting enought fuel to enter and feed the injectors. Beside, they let you drive the car but warned you that there was possible faillure due to high compression (altought high cmpression is probably not the cause here). I understand the urge of taking out your new beast for a ride but you really should have sit with them and see what they were proposing for further tuning. So I would says, yes you must pay them in whole. As far as I can see they did a good job installing everything and the car blow in your hands, not their. I made a complete bi-turbo setup on a Camaro and the owner absolutely wanted to take it out for a ride, despite my warning about stock fuel management. It took only 10 minutes to blow the $6000 engine :roll:
Go back there and have a good discussion with them, you'll probably be able to manage some kind of a deal.
On the other hand, I was wondering if you heard any pinging or detonation while driving? As whatteeee says, those engine are bullet proof and can take quite a beating before giving up. It's entirely possible that your motor was on the verge of blowing up, partially due to heavy abuse, lack of tuning and hours of driving in a detuned state. The turbo setup will only have accelerated the blowing process.

It's a sad day noneteless. As the turbo kit maker, I feel concerned about the whole thing going sideway. You can contact us at Turbine Tech whenever information or advices are needed.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:47 am 
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I don't think you get what i'm saying. They weren't going to install the injectors, pump, & rail until after i said something. To them the car was done. It was ready for me to take home and drive every day according to them. They just told me they where worried about me driving it with 8.5 psi of boost on my compression. The only reason i didn't take the car home was because i wanted to get the injectors, pump, & rail installed. I don't feel i should have to pay them the other half of the payment. Why would the car blow up on me when i didn't floor it, but not on them when they drove it and dyno'd it? Shouldn't it have blown on them before me? Jardamuth, are you sayingthe pistons blew due to not enough fuel? They also said they would have put less boost on the car but that turbo could only go as low as 8.5 psi. That didn't make sence to me but.... Sorry if this post is becoming repetative but i'm still lost on what to do.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:07 pm 
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Well, it wasn't clear in your previous messages. If the shop was willing to let you go with the car, they were responsible for something. Keep in mind that the stock ECU respond badly to boost at low rpm. If you drove the car under full boost at midrange without having the apexi set to handle it with according MAP sensor and rail upgrades, then it's normal for the engine to have a some hiccups. I believe it would have been better to drive the engine WOT at 8.5 PSI where the ECU can handle the extra air rather than 4000rpm @ 8.5 psi.
Anyway, it all goes back to the fuel rail au fuel pressure regulator. If anything, this is the first mods that any respectable tuner should have done right off the start.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:04 pm 
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Jardamuth, What do you think i shoudl do about the payment due to the shop? I don't feel i should give them everything i owe. I just don't know what to say to them about it. That turbo you sold me, could it have gottn lower than 8.5 psi? the shop said 8.5 was the lowest it could go. I have to talk to them Monday and try and figure something out but i don't think they are going to let me have my car back unless i give them thier full payment. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks,

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:36 pm 
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Hum, it's quite possible that they weren't able to lower boost pressure. It's doable but require a little bit of tweaking on the wastegate. I honestly don't know what to say. I would try to manage something with them without starting a war, altough I would be surprised they let you go with the car without being paid in full.

It would be interesting to let them explain their own version. what's the phone number of the shop? Who was the person in charge of the project?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 11:09 am 
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I wish you guys knew how much i really appreciate all your help on this matter! As you can tell its really bothering me. This car is basically all i got. Anyways. Jess, the mechanic that worked on my cars name is Steve. Here is the shop's info.

Ride Revolutions
1837 Volunteer Parkway
Bristol, TN 37620

423-989-3772 --> phone
423-989-3777 --> fax

Tomorrow, Monday, morning i'm going to go talk to the garage and see what they say. My plan is to go in there not actting mad and just see what they have to say. I can tell you that they expect me to pay them the rest of thier money in full though. When i dropped the car off i gave them half. All i owe them is the other half. I don't mind them keeping the first half of the payment cause of supplies & etc. I don't feel they deserve the secound half though. I'll let you guys know how it turns out. Thanks again,

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:09 pm 
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Ask to see the air/fuel ratio in the mid rpms and part throttle too! And find out what the actual reading in psi was in the cylinders before hand please! Thanks

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 Post subject: the shop's reply
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:15 pm 
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i went to Ride Revolutions (the place who worked on my Swift) today & talked about my car. There has only been one person this entire time working on my car. His name is Steve. Well, when i went to pick up the car Friday and test drive it Steve wasn't there. Instead some other employees told me that it was ok for me to test drive the car. Steve didn't realize that i was going to stop by the shop on that Friday. He said the car wasn't ready but apparently the other employees didn't know that. So now i have to wait until Steve talks to the guys who said it was ok before i find out what they are going to do about my pistons.

Jess, Steve said he could only get that turbo down to 8.5 psi. I asked about the fuel cause it must have been running lean. Steve said it was running lean and thats why it wouldn't have been ready until he installed my injectors, pump, rail, regulator. He also said the car's fuel system was maxed out when it blew. I thought a stock fuel system could handle 8 psi.

The shop checked on 9-2-1 pistons for my car & they said they found only 1 place that sells them. If anyone knows of any other place please let me know. Also, Steve said my compression in the Swift was 11-2-1. I thought only the cutlus Swift had 11-2-1 & the GTi had 10-2-1. Maybe i have a JDM engine? If i had 11-2-1 compression/JDM engine then why was my motor only pushing out 114.7 hp & 86.7 ft. lbs. of tourque with my upgrades? If i'm not mistaken the Cutlus had a stock 115. I could be wrong though. I also gave Steve this web site & told him to come on here to ask for tunning advice for the Swift. Keep your eyes open.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:25 pm 
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Generally if you check compression, it comes out to 180psi-200psi or whatever on the gauge... not 10:1-11:1-12:1 on the gauge. 11:1 is generally an after thought. Do you have a number in psi?

was that 115hp with turbo or without?

Replace the stock fuel rail and it should be able to handle 8psi on stock fuel system in the high rpms. Put on a piggy-back and you can actually run it in the lower rpms. :) You need both to have a safe Swift turbo. That and turn timing back. I've been saying it for a long time now.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:20 pm 
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before i dropped the car off when it was N/A compression on each cyld. i think was 210. The guy working on my car, Steve, i think he said he already retarted the timming 6 degrees. i could be wrong but i'm almost positive thats what he said. The 114hp was before the turbo. With turbo it was around 150.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:09 pm 
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Quote:
I thought a stock fuel system could handle 8 psi


It can handle 7-8 psi but you need the fuel rail to be upgraded, it's an absolute necessity. I recall explaining this to you many many times.

Quote:
i think he said he already retarted the timming 6 degrees


Timing need to be set at 2deg..not 5, not 6.. TWO! I ran safely 3 deg on my car, thanks to low compression design and very cold intake charge, wich is not the case with your car. If you need a set of pistons, I can send you stock ones as I have a ton and half of them in the shed. I sold a set of nitride coated, low compression pistons to someone on the board. He won't be using them because he found out his engine needed an overbore so he might be seller if you are interested.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:37 am 
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Ok, Steve called me back & said that it's going to cost around $2,800 to have everything done & supplied. That includes pistons & everything. I told him that i feel i shouldn't have to pay for the work. Well, he said that he talked to the guys that said i could drive it. The employee told Steve that i could drive it as long as i didn't get on it. I told Steve i didn't get on it but Steve said i mentioned how loud the BOV was & he said i had to have gotten on it in order for me to hear the BOV. I told him i would call him back. This is becoming a head ache.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:50 pm 
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ccRacer wrote:
Ok, Steve called me back & said that it's going to cost around $2,800 to have everything done & supplied. That includes pistons & everything.

That's for a complete engine build up with low compression pistons? If they throw in a years supply of fuel and oil for that price then maybe it's a fair price.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:50 pm 
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From hearing a car with a blow off valve you can still hear it at moderate throttle application. Hes trying to get the easy way out it looks like. $2800 dosent sound to over the top if thats including labour. You dont wanna see some of the bills I see at chrysler. Like a short block for a 4.7L jeep is $5800 without heads! Transfer case for a Stealth is $11000.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:06 pm 
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$2800 sounds high to me even if they get you custom forged pistons etc. I can get a freshly refurbished 16v DOHC delivered to my doorstep with a 5 year warranty for $1500. In reading through all this my thing is this: they're a "tuner" shop right? Why would any reputable "tuner" shop let a car out of their garage if it wasn't 100% safe? Not placing blame though this is a bad situation from many angles. Coming from a business owners standpoint, the work was performed and they should be paid although they should cut you a discount or something. You do need compensation in some form. They shouldn't have let you take the car out. If I do a job and it's not right it gets fixed. I've eaten jobs that were well over $2800 simply because it was the right thing to do. I think a little cool headed negotiating could get something worked out. I wish you the best. My $.02

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 Post subject: engine trouble
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:01 am 
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Well the situation is difficult, it hurts :( when we are looking forward to some thing. Its the price we sometimes pay for impatience. The fact is that I also had an engine blown while at a shop. These engines in stock form are very susceptibe to running lean and detonation with boost. I suppose other would also be the same.

I had this happen when I turned off my extra injectors (& piggy back controller) while in their hands. I thought it was OK if just run moderatly for other work. Not so - it needs to be properly tuned before it can be run very much at any boosted levels. I finally put in low compression pistons. (check the section on list)

The shop has some responsibilty - but how you approch them is important. How much will not be easy to figure out from what we have read. Ultimatly the car was in your hands. 5000 RPM is not running it easy in my oppion the boost comes up very fast with the right set up. One 10 sec run can do it !!!

Its a hard lesson. :oops:

As far as the costs, if a shop does the work. This is not that bad, if we can't do it ourselves this is what it will cost. I had a quote for 1500 for a transmission rebuild !!!!. either we do it or we pay for our mistakes.

Performace cars cost money, even our Swifts. I wonder how many would have started their projects if they knew how much it was going to cost in the end. We add more and more as we learn and see what is really needed. But can't quit because we love the car. !!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:12 am 
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Well said. Poeple who know how to fix a motor balk at the price tag. But if you had to pay $50/hr to work on youre car how much would YOURE labour hours have cost YOU. Sure parts are $800 but if you cant put im in there as good as dirt to the unskilled.

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 Post subject: update.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:11 pm 
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Well, i went back to the shop to talk about the rebuild price. Ride revolutions told me that the original price was $3,700 for the rebuild and they are willing to do it for $2,700. They also told me its all my fault and the car wasn't done but i still drove it. I told them i don't feel i should be at fault due to the fact they said it was able to drive and just be careful. Then they told me that even if i added the fuel system upgrades the car would have still blown due to my compression. Now, i think they are full of sh!t and they are trying to throw me the shaft. I talked to my legal office and they think i should bring this in frotn of a judge. I really didn't want to go to this level but they aren't leaving me much of a choice. I told them i feel i should pay for the difference in upgraded pistons & the price to get the block bored. That is all upgraded stuff. I told them i think they should pay for everything else. thats all i know now.....

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