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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:55 am 
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Went to calder the other day and saw a g16b in a fiat 600 the weird crap was actually the engine apparantely it has a mazda b series crank reground, treated and balanced to fit the g16b block. It had a 84.5 mm stroke apparantely and was looking at boring it to 81mm with custom sleeves and machining the alloy sleeves out. He is rebuilding it soon and was telling me how he might just go the mazda pistons at 78mm. He said if he could afford to go 81mm he could use hayabusa pistons. The crank cost him 1500 in machining and 35 dollars from the wreckers.
Anyone heard of this or this car before? I thought the honda d series crank with the 90mm stroke and 75mm bore would be easier???

Read new post on changes to my misinterpretation as I saw too make cars that day and got engines and figures mixed up?!! There where some awesome mx5 turbos too with the 1.6 and an old honda with a d16 engine or the zc twin cam that boogied - I still dont like hondas :wink: but if they can lend a better crank to a zuki then I might give them some credit.

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Last edited by d on Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:38 am 
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The honda crank has been done. It isn't "that" costly

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:12 pm 
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Shite I spoke to another person that was at calder that day and he said this engine in Dave`s fiat uses a honda D series crank not the b series mazda :oops:

I guess I dislike hondas so much I wanted to somehow convince myself that it was some other crank :lol:

Who knows of this crank and who can do it for what price? As the forged d series cranks are everywhere in wreckers for around 30-60 bucks

I couldnt believe the d15 and d16 have the same bores and strokes as the g15b and the g16b!!!! :shock: what was suzuki thinking??!!!

Also found this like on the pikes peaker escudo with 2 x g16b with 400hp = 800hp. I always thought Monster used a few g13b instead :shock:

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Suzuki bring back cheap lightweight cars but this time in RWD


Last edited by d on Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:20 pm 
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Murr wrote:
The honda crank has been done. It isn't "that" costly


Murr can you fill me in on the cost and whos done it?

Im looking at big boost for my g16b and will need a strong bottom end.
I also need specs on to work out which rods and pistons I could use from other engines if possible. Ive already looked at high grade stainless billet sleeves also with 76mm bores.
The head is getting some serious work done as we speak with better valve springs, hopefully titanium retainers at 35 a pop and heat coatings on valves, chambers and exhaust ports to finish it off.
Im also looking at an adapter for a supra w58.
This engine will replace my gas guzzling rotary in the future.

http://www.suzuki.co.jp/dom4/motor/96/autohill.htm

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:26 am 
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The US D15 uses 134mm rods with 45mm mains and 42mm rod journals.
The D16 uses 137mm rods with 55mm mains and 45mm journals.
The JDM D15B uses the 137mm rods from the US D16 but with the shorter deck height of the US D15, and it's crank has 45mm journals for both main and rod.
It's also got the VTEC head that the D16Z6 has, it's basically just a de-stroked D16.

Deck heights for the D15 and D16 are 207mm and 212mm, respectively.

I wonder if all the d16 cranks have the same dimensions???

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:56 pm 
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Murr wrote:
The honda crank has been done. It isn't "that" costly


seems to be another grapevine story as there is no reference anywhere.
I tried but no one has any contacts on this matter that is definately conclusive on specs etc.
If it can be done then I would have a forged crank that can handle 9k, I could use better rods and the girdle will strengthen the block further. Im interested in the d15 crank also with the 84.5mm stroke and using longer rods for better R/S ratio, it should be the strongest suzuki g series bottom end.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:48 pm 
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the honda crank has been done, you can talk to jardamuth about having one adapted for you if you actually have the $$ and you're not just talking out of your ass.

also the escudo is a sidekick/tracker, you're likely thinking of the pikes peak cultus. it went through a variety of drivetrains between '87 and '93.
the escudo was powered by a pair of turbocharged v6's

if you have the time & money, you can get just about anything done or made to fit.

the crank in a g13b is really not the weak point, it's the cap's you need to strengthen for huge power. the g16b crank is weak, but it's also not an engine designed for high revs, that's not just a function of strength, but the longer stroke vs. bore.
you'd make more power for less money using a g13b with a well ported head

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:29 pm 
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n1tr0 wrote:
the honda crank has been done, you can talk to jardamuth about having one adapted for you if you actually have the $$ and you're not just talking out of your @ss.

if you have the time & money, you can get just about anything done or made to fit.

the crank in a g13b is really not the weak point, it's the cap's you need to strengthen for huge power. the g16b crank is weak, but it's also not an engine designed for high revs, that's not just a function of strength, but the longer stroke vs. bore.
you'd make more power for less money using a g13b with a well ported head


I was hoping it wasnt a rumour its just that I would like to see some model numbers as there are so many D series engines for example.......

Here is a list I compiled for various choices all forged and of course Im after the D16 but interesting to see the others.

D13B1 -
1987-1991 Honda Civic DX (European Market)
1343 cm3 - Bore and Stroke : 75 mm X 76 mm

D14A1 -
1396 cm3 - Bore and Stroke : 75 mm X 79 mm
1987-1991 Honda Civic GL and 1990 CRX (European Market)
D14A2 -
1995-1996 Honda Civic MA8 (European Market)

D15A2 -
1488 cm3 - Bore and Stroke : 74 mm X 86.5 mm
1984-1987 Honda CRX HF
D15A3 -
1985-1987 Honda CRX Si

D15B -
1493 cm3 - Bore and Stroke : 75 mm X 84.5 mm
Rod Length : 137 mm
1991-1999 Honda Civic VTi EG4
D15B1 -
1988-1991 Honda Civic STD Hatchback
D15B2 -
1988-1991 Honda Civic DX/LX, CRX DX, Civic Wagon DX
D15B6 -
1988-1991 Honda CRX HF
D15B7 -
1992-1995 Honda Civic DX/LX
D15B8 -
1992-1995 Honda Civic CX
D15Z1 -
1992-1995 Honda Civic VX

D16A1 -
1590 cm3 - Bore and Stroke : 75 mm X 90 mm
1986-87 Acura Integra
D16A3 -
1988-89 Acura Integra
D16A6 -
1988-1991 Honda Civic Si, CRX Si, Civic Wagon RT4WD
1988-1995 Honda Civic Shuttle RT4WD (UK/Europe/Asia/AU/NZ)
1989-1996 Rover 216/416 GTI (UK/Europe)
D16A8 -
1988-1991 Civic/CRX/Concerto (UK/Europe)
1989-1996 Rover 216/416 GTI (UK/Europe)
D16A9 -
1988-1991 Civic/CRX/Concerto (UK/Europe)
1989-1996 Rover 216/416 GTI (UK/Europe)
D16Y5 -
1996-2000 Honda Civic HX
D16Y7 -
1996-2000 Honda Civic DX/LX/CX
D16Y8 -
1996-2000 Honda Civic EX
1996-1998 Honda Civic Coupe iSR (UK model)
1997-2000 Acura 1.6EL
D16Z6 -
1992-1995 Honda Civic EX/Si, Del Sol Si

the rest are the d17 with the R/S ratio overkill 94.4mm stroke.

I think you clearly misunderstand my point. Its not about spending ridiculous money on a forged item from scratch. I just wanted something that would cost halve of a custom made billet crank for the g16 if possible so I could put money on something else. This is done to cosworth engines using Nissan L series cranks and the savings are almost 4 fold.
The g16 has the cast crank and would be an awesome engine for boost with a forgie instead even if its from a Honda.
I dont have any interest in using the twin cam head. My challenge is to use the sohc 16v as it hasnt been done with a forged crank as far as I know and as far as any information that is available for viewing on the net states. The honda sohc 16v make as much hp in boosted form once the correct custom camshafts are used all else being the same to the twin cam heads. I believe the g16b with the forged item and crank girdle from honda will be strong enough for big boost. The G series blocks are very strong thanks to their pressure die cast design and webbing the problem seems to be when using bigger bores and maybe non billet sleeves.
90mm stroke is not a problem as proven by the honda people with their 9k revving 400hp turbo d16 engines and every other race engine ever made. The fiat and lancia engines have shown this with their 10,000rpm 90mm stroked 4 cylinder engines. Yes I understand undersquare engines suffer greater wear but under 9k its not such an issue by using longer rods, shorter piston pin heights, better thinner ring technology, lubrication and friction coatings. I plan on using the 75mm bore for strength but will consider billet sleeves in the future. I plan on 220-240hp atw with the stock sleeves and LPG. The head will be untouched except for heat coating the chambers and exhaust ports, better titanium retainers, better valves springs and heat coated standard valves. The ports and valve sizes will be kept the same size as they crap on the twin cam ones already. Arp bolts with 4agze or rb20det rods modded to accept 25.5mm pin height pistons from factory cbr1000rr or other pistons that could lower comp through the pin height if possible. Im trying to use all factory internal parts rather expensive custom parts if possible.

Quote:
also the escudo is a sidekick/tracker, you're likely thinking of the pikes peak cultus. it went through a variety of drivetrains between '87 and '93.
the escudo was powered by a pair of turbocharged v6's


Ive posted alink about the twin engined pikes peak car which states 2 x g16 engines used not g13 this is all I was stating regardless what name the car has as its just a highly developed space frame chassis and has nothing to do with the factory models (cultus, escudo or what ever its supposedly shaped of flimsy based on anymore). I was merely surprised that two g16 engines instead of g13 with their factory forged cranks where used for that car. I know there have been many different engines used that is obvious but it has nothing to do with what i was stating.
N1tro you say the crank has been done but where are the facts rather than just words? :shock: like who on this or other forum or any part numbers if possible because as anyone can see there are a number of crank options and girdles. My intentions are clear and not out to put anyone down. Im just trying to make this info more public and in the one place so everyone can see, learn and perhaps have the energy to keep their G series engines going into the future without the crap that we have to put up with of never having any help from suzuki or nobody knowing the correct information.

Suzuki parts are so expensive from factory its crazy for such a supposedly budget car. I have a suzuki carry van 1999 model that cost 21,000 au on the road with air con and it doesnt even have a cheap light activating button on the passenger door only on the drivers side and no highbeam adjustable rear vision mirror. Suzuki Australia and Japan have something so big stuck up their clackers they are killing the brand. I know GM is partly to blame but look at where suzuki is going.
I had to replace two coils recently and was quoted 280-300 each from everywhere. My contact in japan sourced it for 150 au. I dont see why we should pay double just because we are in Australia.

As for the crank mods, I will get them done here in Melbourne by a reputable company that has modified cranks for me in the past.
Having the crank stress relieved, journal resized, offset (If I wanted to increase or decrease), re heat-treated, knife edged and balanced will not cost me more than 1000au here so if I could find the crank specs i am better off getting it done here.

The g16 block is taller and will make a better block with either 90mm or a custom 86mm stroke, this taller block is to help keep the rods a little longer than with the shorter g13 block with a stroker would allow.
Im not here to argue which head is better just that Im choosing the g16b for its larger ports, valves and overall potential once the cams are sorted. Also with the forged honda crank the g16 is a better option for boost in my eyes and what I have seen with the D series honda engines of the same bores spacing, strokes, valves and almost identical port design and sizes as the g16a/b.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:12 am 
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Crank work breakdown
Blueprint usually includes:

inspection
magnafluxing
straightening
micro-polishing
chamfering oil holes (enlarging if required or possible)
balancing etc.
extras:
Cryo Treatment
Isotropic Finishing
Friction coatings

Prices in US for some crank work for 4 cylinder bike cranks

Lighten & balancing only - 4 cyl 419.00
blueprinting - 4 cyl 339.00

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:43 am 
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Suzuki G16B twin cam stroker engine - I had to sell my Vitara when I moved from Queensland to Victoria, but I kept the engine. Now family commitments prevent me from continuing this part of the project. It goes a little something like this:

* The block is the stronger G16B block that is cast in Japan. The bores are +1.0mm with 20000km on them. The deck requires machining after a head gasket failure and final compression ratio requirements are determined.

* The crankshaft has been offset ground to provide a 94mm stroke (standard is 90mm), using nissan E15T rods. The rods have been sized and made into full floaters. A new set of un-machined YC pistons are dummy installed.

* The clutch is a custom build by 'Nick's performance clutches' in Brisbane, with 30% extra clamping force. The previous engine setup had about 200 flywheel HP @ 12 psi with no clutch problems at all. With 20000km on the clutch, it is in perfect condition. Also comes with a clutch plate to allow a series 5 RX7 transmission to bolt up to it. More on that later.

* The head - There are three cylinder heads that come with this engine. The first one is fully reconditioned with new exhaust valves. The combustion chambers have been relieved and polished for turbocharging. The bowls of the exhaust ports have been opened up and all ports have been de-burred. The welsh plugs in the top of the head have been removed and replaced with gas threads. This was intended to optimise coolant flow through the head.

The second head is in excellent condition, suitable for rebuild. The third head has damaged cam bosses, but is suitable for dummy engine work and manifold builds. There are two complete sets of standard cams and one set of adjustable cam gears. A new cam belt is included, suitable for the twin cam conversion.

* The exhaust manifold comprises 4 into 1 short runners with a boss for 4 bolt external wastegate. The flange is a T3 pattern.

* The inlet manifold is a custom straight runner manifold with 2 injectors per cylinder. The primary injectors are leaded falcon, and the secondaries are turbo supra. The throttle flange is suitable for RB20/25.

* The transmission is a series 5 RX7 with the bell housing machined down. A spacer plate has been fabricated, allowing it to bolt up to the suzuki bell housing (included) The snout has been machined to allow the suzuki Throwout bearing to work as standard. Just requires the final mounting of the snout.

* Included is a new set of plug leads, an opened but complete ACL G13B gasket set and a factory G16B head gasket. The starter is in good condition and the alternator is an R32 skyline one that has reciently been reconditioned. The alternator is also running a larger pulley to reduce parasitic losses.

on ebay and interesting information about using the turbo rods from a nissan e15et engine and rx7 gearbox with adapter plate.
Does anyone know if someone adapted a celica box to this engine?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:17 am 
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:shock: d slow down man, or spread ur posts over a few threads..a lot of monolouge.... I trold you th exact crank that has been used and proven....
if ya got n1tr0 up ya ass about speakin\doing..well take heed :roll:
use th integra crank and girdle.... hayabusa pistons will fit with machining, and yer..does anyone know th NAME of th old database programs with specs for rods etc (as used for mechanics sourcing for factory cars?)
Anyhow...see ya in msn sometime.
bewitchedgti@hotmail.com

:wink: hint..try to make ur posts more a digest version, rather than full text... :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:36 am 
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If you only knew how many D16 engines and cranks are available and with different journals? I wish I could just grap any d16 and be sure but it aint that easy.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am 
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it IS that easy...88-91 integra with D16 fuel injected model :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:39 pm 
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Unlike suzukis Honda brought out so many of them with different heads and bottom ends with some having different journal sizes apparantely and different craddles.

d16a1?
d16a2?
d16a3?
d16a5?
d16a6?
d16a7?
d16a8?
d16a9?
d16z5?

D16A3 -
1988-89 Acura Integra
D16A6 -
1988-1991 Honda Civic Si, CRX Si, Civic Wagon RT4WD
1988-1995 Honda Civic Shuttle RT4WD (UK/Europe/Asia/AU/NZ)
1989-1996 Rover 216/416 GTI (UK/Europe)
D16A8 -
1988-1991 Civic/CRX/Concerto (UK/Europe)
1989-1996 Rover 216/416 GTI (UK/Europe)
D16A9 -
1988-1991 Civic/CRX/Concerto (UK/Europe)
1989-1996 Rover 216/416 GTI (UK/Europe)

take your pick :?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:29 pm 
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I know Cosworth engine guys use L16 rods....but I've not heard of them using Nissan cranks?!


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