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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:57 pm 
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I read that the 4agze rods are sometimes used in g13's but they are 2mm longer than the g13b rods. the g16 rods are weak and are 138.5mm tall. It is my understanding the g16 crank will not house g13 rods? Because of a different rod journals on the crank? I am unsure of this.

I am going with custom forged pistons, so I can get the crank pin at whatever height I need and diameter to match the rod I use.

And also, if I am frankensteining it this much, how will I find out what compression I have? How do I know what pistons to buy to match the rod lengths? It will be in a 1.6 block though, and planning on a balanced 1.6 crank at this time (will it break with 180-200hp?)

Unless someone has another suggestion of what rod/piston to use? the 1.3's dont work? turbinetech has a good selection of pistons, and I dont wanna blow it up.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:51 pm 
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The weak G16 crank is a myth, I've never even heard of one breaking. I've put mine through constant abuse, 200hp and bouncing off the revlimiter at 6800rpm for years...
Now as for rods, the G16 rods aren't great and no G13 rods won't fit because they're just too short, you'll have the pistons slamming into the counterweights.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:27 pm 
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baldurg wrote:
The weak G16 crank is a myth, I've never even heard of one breaking. I've put mine through constant abuse, 200hp and bouncing off the revlimiter at 6800rpm for years...
Now as for rods, the G16 rods aren't great and no G13 rods won't fit because they're just too short, you'll have the pistons slamming into the counterweights.
and im guessing the 2mm difference isnt gonna cut it?

I didnt find specific measurements of just how much they hit. I saw a few threads about skimming the bottom of the pistons off a few mm's but it didnt really relate to the 4agze rods. Deck height is 20mm more on 1.6, so I cant really assume the rods are 20mm larger, as the crank has a different throw

The rod journals are the same on 13/16 cranks? Obviously I should be looking for some rods about 137-140mm long and ill have to get pistons to match those rods.

but again, how do you figure out compression from there? I need like 8.5-9

edit: im sure something can work, I dont really wanna shell out the big bucks to get some custom rods made up. no 1.5-1.6 liters? Ive seen those d16s take some power. ill have to read up on alot of other cars here and get some info, if you have anything to post please share


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:14 pm 
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well I'm also interested to know of sources of stronger rods.
I don't know how much of a difference there is in length between G13 and G16 rods and I don't have any G13 rods around to measure them.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:26 pm 
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http://www.suzukird.com sells forged rods


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:30 pm 
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Yeah for 725 bucks! I dont need super forged stuff with 200hp, I just want something better than the g16 stuff.

I have some motors lying around, they are 2 liters, but I should find out their rod journal diameters on the crank and see if maybe they are usable. ive known some people making oer 200whp on these a20a motors (with 9.5 comprssion) so ill even see what I can do at junkyards. ill search on here again because I know I saw it for the sizes


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:04 pm 
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bit of an update so far, ill keep posting information as I find it so we can have another good 1.6 internal page.

The d16 rods are good at 137mm, piston pin dia doesnt matter at this point, I cant find the rod journal info yet. Do the 1.3/1.6 rods fit on the d15/16 crank? If so, then theres my answer. ill keep looking

edit: ahah! B18A,B/B20Z/B17A rods (all the same) have the exact same rod lengh (5.394") and exact same rod journal size (1.771")


1.771 = 44.9834 mm so 45mm, does that mean they are 1mm too big for the crank?

edit2: can you get "oversized" bearings to account for a worn crank? Can I order them for 44mm? If so, I could use LS honda rods for some crazy power. or stick with the stock d16/b16-17-18-20 ones. Anything is better than the stock g16 ones.
this is kind of a need to know, FYI 1mm = 0.03937inch

edit AGAIN: the part number for the honda b18 con rod bearings are CB2200 for the 45mm, they also list 2213 as ones for a 48mm crank pin. (48mm? wtf)

I am having trouble finding some information for a 1mm difference. is 1mm too much of a difference to make up in bearing size? maybe im wasting my time looking here

edit once more:
http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/ENGINE_BEARING/4.html
is a bearing manufacturer
this link: http://engine.en.alibaba.com/product/10 ... aring.html shows generic rod bearings, but can these people make custom ones? I honestly have NO idea what im looking for at this point. seeking advice


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:32 am 
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Stock Honda D series rods are weaker than G16B rods.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:43 pm 
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baldurg wrote:
Stock Honda D series rods are weaker than G16B rods.

I was using the D as an example, as determined above the B series are the same length/size and LS rods work. What about the rod bearing thing, can we go 1mm over


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:53 pm 
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actually, why do I need to retrofit some rods?

Why dont I just go here http://suzukird1.com/catalog/product_in ... ucts_id=43 get the stock ones, have them lightened and cryotreated and just run them? Then ill just run some forged pistons on the 1.6 rods, meant for low compression witha thick head gasket. I need 8.5 compression though.

I heard good things about cryotreating. its like ??40% increase in strength AND they made it 25% lighters. on a 400g rod thats down to 300 with more strength


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:20 pm 
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baldurg wrote:
Stock Honda D series rods are weaker than G16B rods.


If that's the case, then this is all moot. The stock D-series rods will easily take 200 hp.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:34 pm 
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i know of many people who boosted there stock D series honda and they hold up pretty good with the boost they have ran and HP they have put out.
you can buy aftermarket honda rods for your application (if they are compatable with your motor of sourse) there still pretty cheap in comparison to the swift ones.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:04 pm 
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swift13b wrote:
actually, why do I need to retrofit some rods?

Why dont I just go here http://suzukird1.com/catalog/product_in ... ucts_id=43 get the stock ones, have them lightened and cryotreated and just run them? Then ill just run some forged pistons on the 1.6 rods, meant for low compression witha thick head gasket. I need 8.5 compression though.

I heard good things about cryotreating. its like ??40% increase in strength AND they made it 25% lighters. on a 400g rod thats down to 300 with more strength


Those rods are a complete and total waste of money.
Also, cryo is nonsense IMO.
After the researching it, I have come to the conclusion that, while in theory it may have some merit, even the people who have tried it cannot claim that it has actually done anything.
Aside from that, even alot of the pro cryo people(professional engine builders, not hobbiests) think that there are far too many process variables to make it a reliable treatment.
I tend to agree.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:20 pm 
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the problem with the 45mm rods is I dont think I can get them to match up to the 44mm crank. I only see 0.25 and 0.5mm overside rod bearings... meaning not gonna work...

are d series rods REALLY weaker than the g16 ones?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:33 am 
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suprf1y wrote:
Also, cryo is nonsense IMO.
After the researching it, I have come to the conclusion that, while in theory it may have some merit, even the people who have tried it cannot claim that it has actually done anything.
Aside from that, even alot of the pro cryo people(professional engine builders, not hobbiests) think that there are far too many process variables to make it a reliable treatment.
I tend to agree.


I agree. There's a lot of talk about cryo parts out there but nothing really that demonstrates cryo-treating parts will actually produce something worth the time and money to do so.

swift13b wrote:
are d series rods REALLY weaker than the g16 ones?


That's the big question. If they are, then you've got nothing to worry about. If they aren't, the perhaps your fears are validated. I will say that I don't think I've ever seen such a scrawny rod as the D-series rod... it seriously looks like Honda was trying to save every last penny on materials. But that said, they do hold up surprisingly well.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:00 am 
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I should try to find pictures of a d16 rod to compare it to, all I know is the 16 rods look skinny as hell.

AHA after quite a while of searching to find a stock d16 rod, I give you:
d16b5

Image

(will now find the g16 rod again)

the d16b5 is like a d16y5 but with higher compression apparantly. damn skinny


edit: onl found this pic in the 4agze rods thread
Image
dont know if the skinny one is a 1.6 or a gti rod it was comparing it to. 4agze is obvious


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:59 pm 
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Aftermarket D16 Honda rods are commonly availible on Ebay at good prices. Most of these are the older style 5/16 (small bolts) rods, and if you are going to spend money on aftermarket rods, it'd best to get the 3/8 bolt rods. Caution on buying cheap rods from Ebay, budget for getting the sizing checked at a reputable machine shop, and possibly a resize too...they cut a few corners over in Tiawan!
The rods are not a straight fit, but some creativity gets them in there.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:41 pm 
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well that d rod looks real skinny, why cant I find a pic of the 1.6 rod? Im pretty sure that other one is a gti rod

edit: should I just go overkill and save some hassel and just do forged rods/pistons and then have room to make more power later? I dont know what the g16 tranny is good for, but I know its better than the 13.

I just think rods/pistons good for over 400hp in something with half that is a little much. maybe I should be raising my goals lol, shoot for 250-275.... but its still a supercharger with only 1 bar


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:38 pm 
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anyone have anything else to add?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:51 pm 
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http://www.airproducts.com/NR/rdonlyres ... 019GLB.pdf

I found this on my journeys. It's a paper explaining and showing under the electron microscope about Cryo treating.

It does show that when properly done it does make a difference, but it's so tied to how it's done...

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:15 am 
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The biggest problem with the g16 rods is the bolts, secondly the rod itself. The bolts often go (thanks to the g16 very poor rod stroke ratio RSR playing havoc by stressing the standard bolts also no thanks to going beyond the required oil service schedule) and then you lose your bottom end. However if you go for arp bolts you will have a better chance of keeping your bottom end together under 200hp.
With correct tuning youll have no issues up to 200hp with arp bolts and stock balanced bottom end.

The rods in the pic of the 4ag rods (the left is NA the right the s/c 4agze one) The problem is the length of the 4ag rods are only good for the g13 with the better RSR.

I recommend instead of new custom rods in getting a honda d16 crank and machining to fit the g16 and machining to use nissan e15et rods which are cheap, superstrong and 140.462mm long.

You will spend money on crank but rods are cheap and youll have a bullet proof bottom end.

look at my thread for the pic of the e15et rods.

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Last edited by d on Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:09 pm 
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hey the g13b crank doesnt fit in the 1.6 block does it?

just curious


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:30 pm 
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no it doesnt


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:20 pm 
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heh a month later, thanks for reply, I figured it out before then too!


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