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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:18 pm 
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Looking to bore and stroke one of my engines.
Just wondering if there's a concensus on what's the maximum possible we can bore the stock 74mm bores. I'm used to bikes, and generally, through the seventies +4mm is possible on some bikes, up to the mid-eighties 3mm was the max, into the mid-nineties +2mm is about as far as you can take the iron bores and nowadays with aluminium bores 2mm is usually possible (although very tight bore spacings often makes even +1mm marginal). My 929 for example has 74mm aluminium bores at 81mm centres but is routinely bored to 76mm leaving the bores just 2.5mm thick.
Is 78mm possible without re-sleeving the G13B?
I read on here that the bore centres are 84mm. I tried to measure the rod centres when I dropped the sump today but couldn't get a vernier in there for an accurate measurement. It _appeared_ to be closer to 85mm though but I'll confirm tomorrow when I pull the head off.
If it is 84mm, 78mm bores still leave 6mm of metal between them which would be fine in a 200hp, 1000cc racebike engine doing 14,000rpm with aluminium bores, so I'd guess it's fine for a 100hp, 1500cc, 6000rpm iron-bore engine?
Are the bores removable or do they have to be bored out to have sleeves dropped in?
How about stroking?
I haven't looked yet to see where the oil galleries run through the crank but is +4mm possible without affecting the galleries?

I'd like to go to 78mmx79.5mm if possible (1519cc) using FJ1200 rods machined down to fit the 22mm journals.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:22 pm 
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i think 77mm is the max anyone has gone with standard bores if not 76mm is done all the time but i would defo grout it if i were going that big

steve

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:00 am 
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stevegti2 wrote:
i think 77mm is the max anyone has gone with standard bores if not 76mm is done all the time but i would defo grout it if i were going that big

steve


Thanks Steve :-)
Now I just need to know if the 74mm and 75mm bores are the same thickness or if the 75mm liners are thicker. I measured the 75mm bores at 91mm around the outer diameter. Just need to do the same for a 74mm engine now for comparison.
I pulled the engine out and stripped it yesterday to discover it's a 1324cc G13A with 75mm bores instead of the 74mm G13B that was supposed to be in there. Just degreasing the mess now and then I''ll measure the rods and crank to see exactly what I'm working with.
What do you mean by "grout it"?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:57 am 
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Hi,

All G13B engine has come with 74mm bore.
GtiMini says 77mm is OK even 78.5.

Look at this link!
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14920

I think you can see what you are trying to do in your country.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:14 am 
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Yep, I've worked that out now :-)
I've measured my G13A 1324cc block and the iron liners are only 79mm OD at the bottom.
I'm sure they could be bored to 78mm but you'd want to be very sure the bore liners are dead square to the crank. I don't suppose anybody has a broken block that can tell how thick the liners are or how many, how thick and how high any steps are? Anybody ever x-rayed a block?
The bores are 123mm deep. The piston thrust faces are 55mm deep and compression height is 28.35mm. By calculation, that puts the piston skirt about 7.5mm below the liner at BDC and the thrust face at the wrist pin is 18.25mm up from the bottom. The liners are supported by the aluminium so 0.5mm thickness might be okay at the very bottom.
I would still like to go to 78mm if I can.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:14 am 
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How far can you Bore the G13B? Knowing Australian humour, and if you talk as slowly as they do in W.A., probably about four or five hours before it breaks down and tells you its name rank and serial number.... =)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:26 am 
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ellpee wrote:
How far can you Bore the G13B? Knowing Australian humour, and if you talk as slowly as they do in W.A., probably about four or five hours before it breaks down and tells you its name rank and serial number.... =)


It doesn't sound like you've been to WA yet :-)
We're not the Territory you know!
Just off to see a man about boring and stroking me...

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:04 am 
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true that... but I have family there and I am a quarter convict... So I believe I have the credentials to pull the piss out of myself...

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:01 am 
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ellpee wrote:
true that... but I have family there and I am a quarter convict... So I believe I have the credentials to pull the piss out of myself...


Only a quarter, that's not enough :-)
Looks like boring 77mm is easy, 78mm he's willing to do but doesn't really like the idea. he doesn't actually believe it would break though and he's happy to do it i want but he agrees it's getting pretty marginal. If we knew how thick the liners are further up the bore that would determine whether that's viable or not - for a road engine at least.
The crank he's also happy to grind off-centre 4mm to stroke it but he doesn't really like the idea of the hollow 38mm journals. I'm not looking at increasing the redline and the rods and pistons I want to use are lighter than stock so I'm inclined to think it'd be fine and I was planning to cryo freeze the block, crank, rods and pistons anyway. Even a 100hp engine is only putting out 25hp per 375cc cylinder which is pretty low by any standards.
I do want to investigate the G16 and D16 cranks though before going ahead with stroking the hollow cast crank. If I can drop a different crank in for the same result or better then that's a grand I can spend elsewhere in the engine.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:59 am 
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ausgixxerpilot wrote:
ellpee wrote:
true that... but I have family there and I am a quarter convict... So I believe I have the credentials to pull the piss out of myself...


Only a quarter, that's not enough :-)
Looks like boring 77mm is easy, 78mm he's willing to do but doesn't really like the idea. he doesn't actually believe it would break though and he's happy to do it i want but he agrees it's getting pretty marginal. If we knew how thick the liners are further up the bore that would determine whether that's viable or not - for a road engine at least.
The crank he's also happy to grind off-centre 4mm to stroke it but he doesn't really like the idea of the hollow 38mm journals. I'm not looking at increasing the redline and the rods and pistons I want to use are lighter than stock so I'm inclined to think it'd be fine and I was planning to cryo freeze the block, crank, rods and pistons anyway. Even a 100hp engine is only putting out 25hp per 375cc cylinder which is pretty low by any standards.
I do want to investigate the G16 and D16 cranks though before going ahead with stroking the hollow cast crank. If I can drop a different crank in for the same result or better then that's a grand I can spend elsewhere in the engine.


You might want to look at a GTi crank? 75.5mm stroke and it has solid rod journals :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:16 am 
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metalfab_101 wrote:
You might want to look at a GTi crank? 75.5mm stroke and it has solid rod journals :wink:


I know, but where do I find these cranks?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:44 pm 
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why not sleeve it?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:00 pm 
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ausgixxerpilot wrote:
metalfab_101 wrote:
You might want to look at a GTi crank? 75.5mm stroke and it has solid rod journals :wink:


I know, but where do I find these cranks?

in twin cam engines, found in swifts and cultus

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:58 pm 
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swift13b wrote:
why not sleeve it?


It doesn't seem to be worth the added expense.
I'm boring it to 77mm which leaves 7mm between the bores and I've read that 78mm is possible - although at 78mm the bottom of the liners is too thin for my liking.
Sleeving it you're probably going to max out at 80mm anyway leaving the sleeves 2mm thick. Iron sleeves are around US$80 each I think (haven't priced sleeves specifically for this engine) and plated aluminium sleeves would be very nice but I just don't think there's enough benefit to offset the effort and expense.
I'm stroking the crank 6mm which will give me 1545cc. 80mm bores would push it out to 1668cc which would have several advantages I'm sure but I just don't think the extra 123cc is worth it.
I haven't focused on the bores yet as I'm waiting for the crank. When I have the crank finished then I'll look more closely at whether it's better to bore or sleeve the block. From what I can see though, sleeving it will require boring the liners completely out as they don't appear to be removable, so just the cost of boring is going to be way higher than the +2mm boring I'm looking at already, plus the cost of the sleeves and decking the block after installing them (although I'm likely to deck it anyway to set the compression ratio). Can anybody confirm if the stock liners can be pressed out of the block?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:02 pm 
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turbohull wrote:
ausgixxerpilot wrote:
metalfab_101 wrote:
You might want to look at a GTi crank? 75.5mm stroke and it has solid rod journals :wink:


I know, but where do I find these cranks?

in twin cam engines, found in swifts and cultus


Yep, but I haven't found any locally or elsewhere so I've given up looking. I have found a place with a couple of heads though.
I must admit that it never occured to me to get a new price though. Anybody know what the 75.5mm solid crank retails for?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:43 pm 
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Quote:
Yep, but I haven't found any locally or elsewhere so I've given up looking. I have found a place with a couple of heads though.
I must admit that it never occured to me to get a new price though. Anybody know what the 75.5mm solid crank retails for?

I can go to any junkyard nearby and get a crank for you. however, most of the yards will probably want to sell the motor with it. not sure what sort of budget limit youve given yourself here, but for big power there no excuse to not have a gt crank in there

ESPECIALLY if you are spending money having your crank modified. modify the RIGHT one

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:08 pm 
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swift13b wrote:
I can go to any junkyard nearby and get a crank for you. however, most of the yards will probably want to sell the motor with it. not sure what sort of budget limit youve given yourself here, but for big power there no excuse to not have a gt crank in there

ESPECIALLY if you are spending money having your crank modified. modify the RIGHT one


I agree with you but if I can't find one what other option do I have. I spent more than a month trying to find cranks locally and sending out emails. Even if I could find a complete engine I wouldn't want to strip a good engine that somebody else might want just to pull the crank.
I'm not looking for big power, I'm building this engine purely for the building itself. The pistons and rods I'm running are a lot lighter than the stock items and I'm not planning on revving it any higher. And I'm having the crank shot peened and cryo frozen so I'm not overly concerned about its strength.
And I'm not interested in buying a complete engine as that would defeat the purpose of building mine. If you're actually offering to find me a crank then I'm interested. Any idea what they sell for where you are?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:09 pm 
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ausgixxerpilot wrote:
swift13b wrote:
I can go to any junkyard nearby and get a crank for you. however, most of the yards will probably want to sell the motor with it. not sure what sort of budget limit youve given yourself here, but for big power there no excuse to not have a gt crank in there

ESPECIALLY if you are spending money having your crank modified. modify the RIGHT one


I agree with you but if I can't find one what other option do I have. I spent more than a month trying to find cranks locally and sending out emails. Even if I could find a complete engine I wouldn't want to strip a good engine that somebody else might want just to pull the crank. I will ring Suzuki tomorrow and get a price on a new crank though.
I'm not looking for big power, I'm building this engine purely for the building itself. The pistons and rods I'm running are a lot lighter than the stock items and I'm not planning on revving it any higher. And I'm having the crank shot peened and cryo frozen so I'm not overly concerned about its strength.
And I'm not interested in buying a complete engine as that would defeat the purpose of building mine. If you're actually offering to find me a crank then I'm interested. Any idea what they sell for where you are?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:38 pm 
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I can make a call for you and see if anyone will part with just a crank

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:29 am 
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swift13b wrote:
I can make a call for you and see if anyone will part with just a crank


Much appreciated :-)
I rang Suzuki and they can't even give me a price unless I can give them a VIN to input first, which is ludicrous.
Is there somewhere online that I can get a price for a new OEM crank?
Out of the US would be best.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:29 pm 
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i have a gti crank if you intersted just send me a pm and well go from there


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:36 am 
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[GTi] wrote:
i have a gti crank if you intersted just send me a pm and well go from there


Still waiting for a response GTi.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:58 am 
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Still chasing that G13B crank? PM crizby on redlinegti.com.... hes always parting out swifts.
Depending on how much you want to spend, you can just buy a 77mm stroker forged crank from suzukird
http://suzukird1.netfirms.com/62pro/cat ... cts_id=181
Cylinder liners in a G series are cast in place, so you would need to bore them out before you could press in a replacement sleeve.
PM DMWDave if you want to ask about resleeving, hes had engines done before
Oh and Grouting means to add a concrete type product (called hardblok) to the water galleries to reinforce them (by filling some areas up) try rocketindustries for that product


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:34 pm 
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a 2mm stroke increase for 2g's?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:49 pm 
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i have cultus solid crank if you willing to pay the shipping cost :wink:

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