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 Post subject: G13B with R1 carbs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:57 am 
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Location: Prostejov
I am going to build racing G13B with R1 carbs and I need help.

Can someone tell me, how to set R1 carbs? What jets to use?
Also how to build intake manifold for R1 carbs?

How to solve problem with timing? Vacuum distributor. How to set it?

Please write your experiences

Lander

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:45 pm 
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Location: Durham, UK
Hi,

I tried to build my own manifold myself.
I even machined inlet manifold flunge flat so I can start to weld ali tube to it.....
Well, I spoke with my friend who mod engine for living.
He offered me to build everything so I gave him all of R1 carb and cylinder head.
I even bought R1 head so he can compare.
I took some pics of progress but they are at work, so I will post it here so you can see.

What he is doing so far.
He has machined inlet side of head, so that he can start to weld ali into it.
He then start to grind port to suite.
He will then weld flunge which you can bolt carbs onto using OEM rubber tube and clips from R1 bike.

He said it will take 2 weeks but it is now 2 months :lol: .
Good job I'm too busy to work on my car at the moment.

For set up and all that, ozmidnight will be good person to ask.
Since he has that setup already running on his everyday car.

Cheers for now
Atchi


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 Post subject: .....
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:43 pm 
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Hi, I have pics on my personal profile here. As for jetting, no-one can really answer that as if your engine is serious it really needs to be done on a dyno to match your porting, cams, intake manifold, airbox or lack thereof, exhaust and ignition and cam timing. As for the distributor, use a Mk1 distributor converted to fully mechanical and modified with an advance curve to suit. You can then disconnect the vacuum line. Hope this helps.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 8:11 am 
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The reason for the vacuum advance is to advance/retard the ignition based on the engine load - more load less advance, and vice versa - using the maniflod pressure as a measure of the load.

The ECU can also be made to vary the amount of advance which is the reason later models don't have the vacuum advance mechanism - running without some form of load based advance control will result in less than optimum ignition timing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:05 pm 
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Location: Durham, UK
Ok, I hope it works.

Image
Image

If you can see it, great.
My friend is first machined off and now he has start to weld Ali up a bit to form nice curve before welding aluminium tube.
This tube will be machined off from solid aluminium as per original R1 head mount.
Once everything is good and solid, he will then start to port and polish.

R1 cabrs wise, he will increase gap between carbs to make equal gap.
If you have R1 carbs, you will notice 2 of them is close together than others.

If you are to make vacum take off, you will need to make take off from each one of inlet.
If you don't do this, you will have shock wave and will not work well ( according to my friend).
I hope this was helpful and I will be keep posting with this mod in the future.

Cheers
Atchi


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 Post subject: .....
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:59 pm 
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Location: Brisbane
I used a single tee-off for my brake booster...and have had no issues at all. Just another fitting you have to be aware of when making up your manifold. I did make sure I could easily add more tee-offs if required, or even a vacuum pump if required, which it hasn't been.

The vacuum advance can, at times, advance your engine up to 45 degrees, such as when decelerating. Due to the nature of the rest of my modifications, this is less than ideal, hence the removal of the vacuum signal from my distributor. It is also why I am running a completely different to stock advance curve in the distributor.

With vacuum advance, detonation can occur on a stock distributor, if you have it set up so it idles even halfway ok on hotter cams, i.e. more base timing. Since mine is now fully mechanical now, hooking up the dizzy line would do nothing, anyway. All it means is, my car is a little less unfriendly to the environment and uses a tiny bit more fuel because of this - not that I can tell, anyway. It uses about 10 litres per 100 kilometres in combined city-highway driving.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:13 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:57 pm
Posts: 318
Location: Prostejov
Thanx for great infos.

2mini gti: I am very interesting in your intake manifold, becuase you have soo big change on intake side of head.

2 OzMidnight: I am thinking to build the same intake manifold as you. As I see on pics, it it stock intake flange with tubes in another angle. That tubes are from stock intake manifold? Are you able to build for me that intake manifold?

About distributor, I not understand it at all. My english is not as good to understand it corect. I am thinking to use distributor from 1.3 SOHC engine. Can you post pics of modification of your distributor?



And what will be my mods on engine?

- knife edge crank, lightened, polished, balanced
- rods, lightened, polished, balanced
- pistons from Cultus 11:1
- race port and polish of head, shaved 0.5 - 0.6 mm to raise compression
- stock valves but modified
- solid lifter conversion
- valves springs (think to use stock, because we are going to build very light solid lifters so we think that that springs will work at 9000 rpm or little over)
- modified stock cam wheels for cams degree setting
- cams - 9mm lift, 295 duration
- R1 carbs
- light single pulley
- coplet new exhaust system
- lightened stock flywheel

and that all with hewland 5 speed transmition with LSD

Think that it can be very fast race car for hillclimbing.

What you think?

Lander

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:45 am 
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Location: Lee's Summit, Missouri USA
You'll definitely need different valve springs for the cams you are talking about using. 9mm lift is too much for the stock springs and with solid lifters and stiffer springs you won't have to worry about valve float @ 9k and over. I'd put oversized valves in it too as you're doing everything else. Leeye comes across them every now and then and they're very nice. Sounds like you've got a good plan in mind for you're build up. I hope you have a big piggy bank, the hewland tranny is like $6000GBP if I remember right.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:40 pm 
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Location: Prostejov
SYL23 wrote:
You'll definitely need different valve springs for the cams you are talking about using. 9mm lift is too much for the stock springs and with solid lifters and stiffer springs you won't have to worry about valve float @ 9k and over. I'd put oversized valves in it too as you're doing everything else. Leeye comes across them every now and then and they're very nice. Sounds like you've got a good plan in mind for you're build up. I hope you have a big piggy bank, the hewland tranny is like $6000GBP if I remember right.


Stock valve springs will not have problem with 9 mm lift, the problem is rev limit of valve springs. Is possible to use valves from other cars which have no problem to work over 9000 rpm.
About valves, we decide to use stock one. There is lots os space to modify stock valves and also lots of space to modify seater so I will have about 15 - 20 percent bigger valve area.
I dont need a big piggy bank. That racing transmitions (all new internals for stock transmition) are not trully from Hewland, but it is Hewland type of lockers, you dont need to use clutch when you want to shift!!! One guy is for me developing that internals. When everything will by finished and I will try that transmition to see that it works, I will post pics to see if any true swift racers will like to have also Hewland type 5 speed transmition and price will be sure in area price of cheapest close gear ration - from Rospen Australia.

Lander

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:33 pm 
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Location: Lee's Summit, Missouri USA
You mentioned Rospen in your post. Did you look at their site http://members.iinet.net.au/~rospen/suzuki.asp ? From Rospen's site: Cams with more than 0.360" (9mm) lift require alternative valve springs

For engines to use rpm over 8500 require alternative valve springs

For engines to use rpm over 8800 require also solid lifter converion

Cat Cams, which used to do alot of stuff for the swifts, recommended the same thing except they said 9mm and over lift on the cams needed alternative springs. If you're doing solid lifters why skimp on the springs? It sounds like you're really building this engine up and I would think you'd want to over build it everywhere you could to get the maximum durability and life out of it, but that's my opinion.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 4:52 am 
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SYL23 wrote:
You mentioned Rospen in your post. Did you look at their site http://members.iinet.net.au/~rospen/suzuki.asp ? From Rospen's site: Cams with more than 0.360" (9mm) lift require alternative valve springs

For engines to use rpm over 8500 require alternative valve springs

For engines to use rpm over 8800 require also solid lifter converion

Cat Cams, which used to do alot of stuff for the swifts, recommended the same thing except they said 9mm and over lift on the cams needed alternative springs. If you're doing solid lifters why skimp on the springs? It sounds like you're really building this engine up and I would think you'd want to over build it everywhere you could to get the maximum durability and life out of it, but that's my opinion.


I understand it, that if you have cams that has lift up to 9 mm, you can use stock valves springs, more than 9 mm lift, you need upgrade your springs. Group A cams has also 9 mm lift and everybody use tham with stock valves springs.
But if I will have to change valves springs. Where to get them for good price. Is possible to use valves springs from another engine where stock springs are good for me?

Lander

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:19 am 
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Location: Lee's Summit, Missouri USA
http://members.iinet.net.au/~rospen/suzuki.asp
http://www.suzisport.com/
http://www.catcams.be/
You might get with Adam at http://www.occracing.com/ He should have some info on off the shelf double valve springs for the swift. It's whether he'll part with that info or not as I'm not sure what his plans are for it.

Beyond that, pull out a valve spring and take it to someone that does headwork or builds engines. They might be able to look at it and know of something that would work.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:31 pm 
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Location: Prostejov
My engine is building man, who is working for Skoda Motorsport and building engines for Skoda Fabia WRC. He is thinking that when he modify stock valves to be little lighter and change hydraulic lifter to solid lifter in some less weight version, than stock valve springs will have to work.

But of course I will by happy to change it to other valve springs which will for sure work.

Lander

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:11 pm 
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Location: Prostejov
2 OzMidnight: Please, how you build your intake manifold???? It looks great and I think that carbs are in good angle.

Philip

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 Post subject: .....
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:55 pm 
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Location: Brisbane
The flange is cut off an old GTi manifold. Then, a shaped plug was made, that was basically a piece of aluminium that went from a round 40mm to an oval equivalent to a 36mm round (the GTi ports are of this size. The plug was then used in a press to shape pieces of 40mm aluminium tube.

These four pieces of tubing were then cut at appropriate angles to line up with the R1 carbs. They were also cut to sit the R1 carbs at an angle that holds the fuel bowls horizontal at rest.

The tubes were then tack welded into place and checked for alignment. All gaps were then welded up and the inside was ported out to the shape seen in the manifold flange picture.

The essential airbox was made from fibreglass, after a lot of reading and asking questions about airboxes. If you want to use an airbox (I would), then the best basic piece of advice is to make it as big as possible and make sure that the 'wall' opposite the intake trumpets of the carbs is as far away as possible, at least 1.5 times the intake diameter of 40mm.

Hope this all helps.

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Don't ask me, I don't know anything. And just because I'm a senior member, it does not mean I have as many wrinkles as ellpee. 1500+ posts and still I haven't got a clue.


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 Post subject: Re: .....
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:41 am 
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Location: Prostejov
OzMidnight wrote:
The flange is cut off an old GTi manifold. Then, a shaped plug was made, that was basically a piece of aluminium that went from a round 40mm to an oval equivalent to a 36mm round (the GTi ports are of this size. The plug was then used in a press to shape pieces of 40mm aluminium tube.

These four pieces of tubing were then cut at appropriate angles to line up with the R1 carbs. They were also cut to sit the R1 carbs at an angle that holds the fuel bowls horizontal at rest.

The tubes were then tack welded into place and checked for alignment. All gaps were then welded up and the inside was ported out to the shape seen in the manifold flange picture.

The essential airbox was made from fibreglass, after a lot of reading and asking questions about airboxes. If you want to use an airbox (I would), then the best basic piece of advice is to make it as big as possible and make sure that the 'wall' opposite the intake trumpets of the carbs is as far away as possible, at least 1.5 times the intake diameter of 40mm.

Hope this all helps.


Thank you so much for your description. I have one intake manifold which I will cut, need to find aluminium tubes.
I am going to NOT use air box, because my swift is only for racing.

Philip

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 Post subject: .....
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:50 pm 
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Location: Brisbane
I guess I did not make it clear - the airbox will MAKE you power, not lose you power. Have a look at pics of old Super Tourer/BTCC cars for an idea. But hey, if you want your race car slower... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: .....
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:54 am 
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Location: Prostejov
OzMidnight wrote:
I guess I did not make it clear - the airbox will MAKE you power, not lose you power. Have a look at pics of old Super Tourer/BTCC cars for an idea. But hey, if you want your race car slower... :wink:


Please, can you write here some links of pics?
In our hillclimbing races nobody with ITB or carbs use air box.
Philip

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 4:08 pm 
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Location: Quilmes
Hi, I´m about to make my own intake too, what you all wrote was very useful to me but I still have doubts about the vacum lines for the booster and for the distributor.

I think that if I take the vacum line from one primary tube only it will make diference beetwen the cylinders (excuse my english) Am I wrong??

Can anyone give me some advice about this.

thanks a lot
fede


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:22 pm 
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Hi,

Yes I think you will create pulse if you use only one.
You have to make a pipe with t-piece to connect all 4 then take for acume advance for dizzy and break servo booster.
In Oz's case, I think he used mechanical advance curve not vacume.

In many case, you don't need servo assisted breaks or vacume advance.
I'm building mini with G13B engine and I will be using without myself.

I hope it helped you a bit. :wink:

Cheers
Atchi


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 Post subject: .....
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:40 pm 
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Location: Brisbane
fede wrote:
Hi, I´m about to make my own intake too, what you all wrote was very useful to me but I still have doubts about the vacum lines for the booster and for the distributor.

I think that if I take the vacum line from one primary tube only it will make diference beetwen the cylinders (excuse my english) Am I wrong??

Can anyone give me some advice about this.

thanks a lot
fede


If you feel you are not going to make enough vacuum from one runner of the manifold - then tee off from two or more. I had large cams, for a road car, and had no issues with lack of booster vacuum with just one tee.
You can do the same with the distributor. My dizzy was purely mechanical and did not use vacuum advance.

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Don't ask me, I don't know anything. And just because I'm a senior member, it does not mean I have as many wrinkles as ellpee. 1500+ posts and still I haven't got a clue.


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