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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:32 am 
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Location: Portland, OR, USA
Hello, This is my first post on this forum and I have read every single bike carb conversion related post and have yet to fully answer my questions. I just started to modify my Swift and I am very enthused about the outcome I hope for after reading what other members are doing.

I found that most people going to bike carbs are people with FI G13b (GTi) motors. Not many people are interested in modifying there G13a sohc carbie motors and converting them to bike carbs. Is this because there would not be enough gains to out weigh the trouble of adding bike carbs?

Also, I see that many people are adding 1000cc bike carbs or bigger on the GTi motors and are getting bigger jet kits to accomidate the engines. If I were to add bike carbs to the 1.3L sohc, taking into consideration that the heads dont flow as much air as the GTi motors, would I need bike carbs from a bike with 1000cc or can I get one off a smaller displacement bike and not have to change the jets? or maybe, even get the Gixxer 1100 carbs, tune them, and not get a bigger jet kit?

I am very new to carb tuning since I was a big FI geek, in terms of both Forced Induction(turbo) and Fuel Injection. I did all my stuff with Electromotive TEC2 and WINTEC program to set timing and fuel on my last car...which blew up... I am still learning about the carb universe and how to work with them... even terminology is still new to me.

I hope I haven't digressed from the main issue which was converting to bike carbs on a 1.3L sohc stock carbie motor and what that would entail, since it is already a carbed motor I would not have to worry about the ECU (OBD-I???>) and fuel injection, no piggy backs needed(that was a really long sentence).

Sorry to sound so repetitive or tedious, I'm just really excited about what I can do with such a small motor. I have a 2001 Honda S2000 and am considering getting ITB's or Carb the motor for more power. The Swift is my road rally/autocross/cone bashing project car. It's cheaper to replace a Swift motor as opposed to a S2000 motor. It's my test bed.

Thanks . :lol:

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'01 Silverstone Metallic Honda S2000
'99 Aspen White Subaru 2.5RS Twin Turbo (R.I.P.)
'94 White Suzuki Swift 1.3L


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:09 am 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
We used to have a 1.3 SOHC powered Swift as a field car, and was surprised at how fast it, for what it was.
As a favor to my neighbors son, I picked up a 90's Metro 1.3 5spd. yesterday. I was obligated to run it through the gears, and was again surprised at how fast it was. I was revving it to 7k, with no trouble. I can't understand why more people in N. America don't build them up. I have sold a pile of perf. cams to Europeans for their SOHC motors, and one of my customers even has the bike carbs installed.
My recomendation? Go small. I have a set of 28mm, or 30mm here from a 750 Honda (for use on a 3cyl). That is what I would use. You will still increase the flow, but also still maintain a bit of power below 4k. The stock throttle body on your car is 38mm, so 4x30 is a big diffrence. I would also raise compression(machine the head), and install a perf. cam. Oversized valves are available. Why stop at the carbs? I would do the cam/compression first.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:46 am 
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You might also want to locate a 1989-91 distributor with mechanical advance, your ignition timing is currently controlled by the ECU. And your car has throttle body injection, not a carb.

_________________
1994 Metro - MPH project (getting a DOHC G13B)
1994 Metro - MPG project (getting an XFi G10)
1992 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1991 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1990 Swift - Parts car
1997 Metro - Parts car (gone)
1993 Metro - Parts car
1989 Swift GTi - Parts car
1998 Metro - Parts car


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:48 am 
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Gasoline Fumes: Are you sure my car is an EFI with throttle body? my engine bay looks like your red parts cars engine bay... just not as bad, since my car is running. I have the round filter on top and when I took off the filter it definately had the carb underneath it. No sign of TB and the engine doesn't have the sticker that says EFI. It is a 1994 Suzuki swift 1.3L, that's what the cars stickers say. Also, why would I want to go from a '94 distributor to an '89-'91 distributor? Wasn't the MKII's production run from '89-'94? Or are there two different distributors between '89-'91 and '92-'94?

Suprf1y: Thanks for the advise on what to tune and the size of the bike carbs. I was thinking along the lines of purchasing a gixxer 600 or 750 carbs. When you talk about raising the compression you are meaning, without changing engine internals, i.e. pistons and rod length, to machine the thickness of the head so that the head essentially sits closer to the pistons. Shaving off the bottom portion of the head or getting thinner head gaskets. This can be performed by most local machine shops, right? About the pref. cams, so far I have only been able to find cams for the DOHC motor. You or your company sells perf. cam for the sohc motor and for how much? What are the estimated HP/torque gains on a pretty much stock motor with headers and exhaust when adding perf. cam?

Thank you both for the quick help.

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'01 Silverstone Metallic Honda S2000
'99 Aspen White Subaru 2.5RS Twin Turbo (R.I.P.)
'94 White Suzuki Swift 1.3L


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:39 am 
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boX rockeT wrote:
Gasoline Fumes: Are you sure my car is an EFI with throttle body? my engine bay looks like your red parts cars engine bay... just not as bad, since my car is running. I have the round filter on top and when I took off the filter it definately had the carb underneath it. No sign of TB and the engine doesn't have the sticker that says EFI. It is a 1994 Suzuki swift 1.3L, that's what the cars stickers say. Also, why would I want to go from a '94 distributor to an '89-'91 distributor? Wasn't the MKII's production run from '89-'94? Or are there two different distributors between '89-'91 and '92-'94?

If it looks like my parts car, it's TBI. You should see the injector wire and pressure regulator right under the filter. No Swift sold in the US had a carb, only the old Chevy Sprints.
The TBI looks like this:
Image
(Ignore the manifold, it's from a Toyota Tercel)

MKII is 1989-91 and MKIII is 1992-94. The MKII SOHC Swifts had mechanical advance, which will work better with carbs than the electronic advance on the MKIII engines. I don't know how happy the ECU would be running the ignition with the injection disabled.

_________________
1994 Metro - MPH project (getting a DOHC G13B)
1994 Metro - MPG project (getting an XFi G10)
1992 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1991 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1990 Swift - Parts car
1997 Metro - Parts car (gone)
1993 Metro - Parts car
1989 Swift GTi - Parts car
1998 Metro - Parts car


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:57 pm 
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Location: Portland, OR, USA
Gasoline fumes: as you can tell, I am VERY new to carbs,.. hahah couldn't even tell if mine was one or not. I figured it out when I went to make a CAI for my swift. I took it apart and saw the TB and injectors. thanks for not flaming me as an idiot :) while I was making the CAI i went ahead and did that little mod for the TB where you have those 2 cross braces running lengthwise right under the filter, I can hear and feel the difference of the engine since it's getting a straighter flow of air into the TB.
superf1y told me about the cams and machining the head which I will probably do... the GSX carbing seems like the big hassle in this engine setup. especially with the fabrication of the intake manifold, how many bench hours do you think it will take to modify the intake manifold to mate up with the carbs? i'll be having someone else, most likely, to do it for me, like a shop, or should I just go ahead and buy the intake manifold that is for sale to install the carbs?

thank you

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'01 Silverstone Metallic Honda S2000
'99 Aspen White Subaru 2.5RS Twin Turbo (R.I.P.)
'94 White Suzuki Swift 1.3L


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:06 am 
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boX rockeT wrote:
...how many bench hours do you think it will take to modify the intake manifold to mate up with the carbs? i'll be having someone else, most likely, to do it for me, like a shop, or should I just go ahead and buy the intake manifold that is for sale to install the carbs?

thank you

If you're paying for the labor, you might be better off just buying the right manifold instead. I'd get a few quotes for the labor and see if it's worth making the old manifold work, or even having a custom manifold made.

_________________
1994 Metro - MPH project (getting a DOHC G13B)
1994 Metro - MPG project (getting an XFi G10)
1992 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1991 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1990 Swift - Parts car
1997 Metro - Parts car (gone)
1993 Metro - Parts car
1989 Swift GTi - Parts car
1998 Metro - Parts car


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:37 am 
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Location: Durham, UK
Hi,

I'm getting mine modified to take R1 carbs.
My engine is G13B but my tuner is charging £200 for all the work.
He is doing this mod for me when he has spare time so.....takes long time.
I'm sure it will be same process for G13A and G13B.
Instead of using normal manifols, he is making new one(well 4).
He should be finishing off this week.
When he finish it, I will take pic and post it here.

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:14 am 
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As stated on my first post, most people with DOHC are going to carbs. I also noticed that the manifolds are different for both cars. the G13b motors seem to have enough intake runner length to chop them off and still have enough usable space to attach the bike carbs without much modification at all other than gas resitant rubber hose and clamps. Seems like no one sells ready made manifolds for 1.3 sohc for conversion. the G13b's on the other hand have a few options.
I was looking at my 1.3 manifold and it looks as though there is almost no room for hacking away at it. also apparent was that the design of the manifold resembles more of a header than an intake manifold. the intake runners are not individual but are paired. I hope that was a good enough description of my observations.

gasoline fumes: so than if i was able to some how attach the bike carbs as easily as rubber hoses and clamps, what are my options for timing? you said d/c the ecm going to the injectors and get the distributor off the 89-91's right? would that be all I need for the conversion? any other things i would have to consider? I am considering getting the cams from superf1y. would i need to purchase a new jet kit? heard people were leaning out feul mixture because lack of fuel? are those problems I will face or are those for the big HP hitting guys?

miniswift: are you talking about the R1 carb kit that was started in 2003? do you have any recent pictures other than the finished product?

John

P.S. what's a "dizzy?" distributor?

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'01 Silverstone Metallic Honda S2000
'99 Aspen White Subaru 2.5RS Twin Turbo (R.I.P.)
'94 White Suzuki Swift 1.3L


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:11 am 
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Location: Durham, UK
Hi Box rockeT,

My tuner is actually making new manifold not cut up ones.
He has machined off normal flange face then weld up some ali to make new flange face.
Last time I went to see him, it was still welded up state.
Also, he had a problem with distortion with heat from welding.
R1 carbs are unequal spaced as well, so you will have a little problem.
For this problem, he will be making new spacer to make equal gap between each carbs.

Like you said, it is from that time is it over year already!?
I have to go and kick his ass, I think.

Let you know how it looks A.S.A.P.
I want to know myself too.

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:05 pm 
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My manifold was just made using the old flange....but not the old runners. I had no room to respace the carbs to suit as they would have fouled on the master cylinder. The runners were made to suit.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:25 am 
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boX rockeT wrote:
Seems like no one sells ready made manifolds for 1.3 sohc for conversion.

gasoline fumes: so than if i was able to some how attach the bike carbs as easily as rubber hoses and clamps, what are my options for timing? you said d/c the ecm going to the injectors and get the distributor off the 89-91's right? would that be all I need for the conversion? any other things i would have to consider?

John

P.S. what's a "dizzy?" distributor?

Try looking for a manifold for a Samurai. I thought you could buy them for Weber side draft carbs.

The distributor (or dizzy) should bolt right on and only require a minor wiring change. The older distributor has the ignitor built-in, not on the coil bracket like yours.

_________________
1994 Metro - MPH project (getting a DOHC G13B)
1994 Metro - MPG project (getting an XFi G10)
1992 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1991 Swift - Parts car (gone)
1990 Swift - Parts car
1997 Metro - Parts car (gone)
1993 Metro - Parts car
1989 Swift GTi - Parts car
1998 Metro - Parts car


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:39 am 
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Location: Portland, OR, USA
thank you thank you. i will look for a samurai manifold, 91 dizzy, and some gixxer carbs and let lady luck have at me. :)

On a side note I spent the last 16 hours working on the car. gutted interior except for dash and center console, removed tar insulation (not as bad as i thought and with no heat gun), did some painting, mocked up some body work, and finally wired the fog lights. Im happy. the car went from an "over heating piece of junk, here you go, have it for free, it needs blah blah blah..." and now its a light, nimble cone bashing car, aside from the massive body roll. still have a lot too do but it looks 1000% better . a lot of custom fabricating I am doing. soon to come RCI 4pt. harness, sparco steering wheel, momo racing seats, suspension and sorts.

The car looks lifted with all that weight off the back of the car...now to get rid of the heating and A/C.. maybe.

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'01 Silverstone Metallic Honda S2000
'99 Aspen White Subaru 2.5RS Twin Turbo (R.I.P.)
'94 White Suzuki Swift 1.3L


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:04 am 
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i,m using gsxr 750 carbs 38mm bore and near on perfect spacings and they sit at a 45 degree angle. wot about throttle bodies if your an injection geek. its the way i'm going.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:04 pm 
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Location: brisbane
id just go a 32/36 down draft webber off an old shcool 2l ford cortina, then all u have to do is make a spacer plate.
after lineing up the carby throat to ur spacer plate, drill 4 holes where ur old carby would bolt up , then simply drill another 4 holes to accomadate the new carby..
thats wat i was going to do with my old 1.3L 8v sohc motor, but then opted for a gti conversion..

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:20 pm 
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Hi boX rockeT,

Took my friend a long time but this is how it looks.
I will just post my post link.

http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=19770

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:41 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:56 pm
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Location: Seattle, WA
I am running dual sidedrafts on my dohc and love them once tuned.. I have a manifold that is for the 1.3 sohc, it used to be sold by calmini, in a kit to run dual sidedraft dcoe carbs it is now for sale if you are interested..PM me for details

Later, Scott

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