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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:12 pm 
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hey i'm looking @ a set of quad carbs from a yamaha yzf-r1, & i'm wondering if they might be too big for the swift ? peak hp on the stock bike is 150hp@10000rpm .. i'll probably be installing more agressive cams @ the same time...
it certainly looks like an easier/cheaper project then going w/ the quad tb's ..
thanks


Last edited by n1tr0 on Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:15 pm 
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dont do it at the same time!!!

:D

say something goes wrong with the cam install, and then you put the tbs on pefectly, then you think its the tbs...i'd do one at a time, even waiting a week or 2, just to ensure its going to run fine...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:43 pm 
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well i'm no big fan of pulling the engine out twice for something i could have done once properly ..
i've got a spare car/tank ..
i can see getting the carbs tuned just right as being a bit of a challenge, same w/ switching over to a low pressure fuel pump & a stand alone ignition. but i don't think doing the cams @ the same time is going to make it any more difficult ..
i'm going to wait for some more feedback this time before spending a bunch on parts 'tho.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:46 pm 
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true that...

or do the carbs first, because cams are easy to do.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:59 pm 
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i'm pulling out my engine, probably next week .. might as well do it all @ once ..


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:23 pm 
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hi kris,

i strongly agree with waiting a few weeks until you install the cams. I have the carb set-up on my car and i had lots of tuning porblems to figure out before i could do anything to my motor. Now that i have figured everything out i can start modifying the motor.

Just a suggestion. it's up to you though.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:01 pm 
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The carbs will be fine. I know of a number of folks using 38mm or 40mm bike carbs on cars. Including me very soon. My car is already tuned with cams, etc etc etc, so at least I don't have the hassle of wondering if the rest of my setup is ok.

Already got my custom manifold lined up to be made for under $250. Fuel system is sorted and ready to order. Using a fibreglass airbox fed by an 80mm pipe to my existing pod filter, which will then be shrouded and fed cold air.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:18 am 
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custom manifold ? you're not going to do it just by chopping up your old stock manifold ? could you post some pics before you install it so i could get an idea =)
thanks


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 8:24 am 
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I'm using ones off an 1100cc bike. Probably semi-downdraught type as there is not a lot of room in my rhd GTi, due to brake master cylinder and booster. Will post some pics...hope to have it done by mid-January.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 8:19 pm 
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well i ordered the carbs .. will see if they work out .. now i just have to get that distributor from 5zigen =)
here's a pic of them
Image


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 7:16 am 
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OK...pretty weird - today I actually ended up buying a set of Mikuni carbs at last....from nothing less than an R1.... :shock:

The GSXR1100 ones I first looked at were sold. These are much more compact Mikuni semi-downdraught ones and much newer as well...being only about 2 1/2 years old. The guy wrecked his bike and it was uninsured, so he was parting it out in a rush. Got the set complete with airbox, trumpets and all. Funny how things work out at times.

We'll for sure be able to compare notes, now. :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:20 pm 
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yup, 2001 R1 w/ trumpets & airbox .. so these are Mikunis ?
shouldn't be too hard to get various jets & stuff then.
i'm still waiting to hear back from 5zigen, how hard is it to find mk1 distributors or what are they worth in OZ ? i'd like to keep the conversion costs to a minimum for now.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:21 pm 
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It's hard and they are costly. :(

Am hoping to get away with the whole conversion for less than $1200 Aus.
The carbs here set me back $400, with airbox and all. What about for you?


As an extra note....the carbs are generally around $1000 or more a set second hand in good condition....I just got lucky.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:50 pm 
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i got my factory carbs w/ airbox for $105US..
are your carbs the factory R1 carbs, or are they aftermarket mikunis that were fitted on as a replacement ? the reason i ask was i got this bit from gerry.
GMC wrote:
The YZF carbs are very limited in all tuning aspects as they are setup not
to be tampered with thats why racers go to after market carbs. ..snip.. you
will find that the yzf carbs have a very steep angle that does not suit your
motor well ..snip.. Just so you know if you use the yzf carbs you will still
need a $150 U.S. jet kit which will still not suit you well but will work at
best

here's a couple more pictures that i got from the seller....
i really hope gerry is thinking of some older model carbs or something ..


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:17 am 
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Got a fellow who will help me out....he is into big-time drag bikes in a big way.....he says he has used different carbs on a few cars now and had no worries at all with tuning them. One of those sorts of guys that says little but knows a lot. Reckons he can certainly tune these with no great dramas or concerns.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2003 8:55 pm 
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awesome .. i'll definately be interested in hearing what sort of issues you run into .. =D


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 1:24 am 
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I also have a link somewhere written down for a bike dyno shop that tuned these carbs on their shop bike. Somewhere.... :roll:

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 Post subject: carbs
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 5:05 pm 
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With all do respect, I know lots of guy that have made things work but don't be mislead by jacks of all trades, sure they may work but don't you really want your motor to run right? by this I mean at peak level of tune throw out the power ban? Yes the pictured carbs of Kris are the ones I was talking about, They were I believe 97 to 2002 YZF models and were designed to be set and not tuneable as the have restricted passages and various plugs to prevent tampering. Yes you can get around these problems and if you chose to go this route you should follow people who really know there stuff, they being sport racers, they know there shit! It does appear to me and this just my on personal opnion and there for may not be worth shit BUT it seems to me a lot of you guys want to do things the hard way in this I mean Stock factory carbs of the modern era are no tamper smog carbs so yes you get them cheap but by the time and hell you will spend to make the run right in your application your will be way behind as opposed to getting a true smooth bore series "race" carbs
met for broad applications and tuning. What I fail to understand the most and I put this out to all that read this post is: Why do you want to run a very hi angle down draft carb on a motor that requires a side draft carb set up? Could it be that you are more intrested in a presumed "trick factor" instead of actual motor performance? Just my opinion


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 Post subject: Carbs
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 6:40 pm 
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GMC you make some excellant points. From experience I can tell you that the amount of time and effort needed to tune mototcycle carbs when installed on an automobile engine is HUGE. There are several combination that kind of work but are far from optimal. I choise bike carbs for my G10 project because there is no 3 barrel
side draft carb and no room for a 3 barrel down draft from a 911
Porsche. In my opinion the best carb set up for a G13b is Webers
but they are not cheap.
The G10 project took several years to get to a point that I was
happy with and required more than 50 carb removals for jet changes
With the experience I have gained while doing the G10 project,
I am going to try a set of bike carbs on my G13b project but I am
also working on a Weber manifold.
Weber jets can be changed without removing the carbs.

Bike carbs can be made to work BUT NOT QUICKLY OR EASILY !


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 11:29 pm 
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The fellow I got the info from runs 7 second drag bikes so he is, shall we say, fairly knowledgable. Also, there are a number of Sports 1300 racers here - open wheelers often running GTi engines, that are happily running bike carbs and making in excess of 150hp.

A tuner here that has done quite a number of these cars has a pretty good clue on what is required. Same guy also timed my cams and recurved my distributor and I must say, his work was surely impressive. Anyone who can get my cams to run smoothly still using the dinosaur Mk1 ECU for fuel supply gets my respect.

He took an afternoon to do my distributor and one hour to time my cams. No fiddling necessary, he got his book of knowledge down, looked up numbers on similar engines/etc he had done before and went to work. An hour later the engine had a 4000rpm power band instead of a peaky 2000...and would actually idle at 1100rpm rock-steady. My machinist I use has also done a few of these carbs onto road cars.

Plus, while a straight sidedraught may be a little better, the carbs I have will fit much easier into my RHD small-engine-bay Mk1. I have little things called braking components in the way...lol

But, having said all that and tired myself out, I still certainly respect your opinions.

Poruki, were those diagrams ok?

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 Post subject: Re: carbs
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:37 pm 
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GMC wrote:
What I fail to understand the most and I put this out to all that read this post is: Why do you want to run a very hi angle down draft carb on a motor that requires a side draft carb set up? Could it be that you are more intrested in a presumed "trick factor" instead of actual motor performance? Just my opinion

what i'm trying to get is a relatively cheap setup that will give me a very quick revving engine that's as simple as possible, so that when it comes time to stuff all of this in an old mini shell i'll have something that behaves more like a motorcycle then an econo-car.
$800 carbs seem like overkill when i'm not so worried about a couple hp difference between 'carbs' & 'race carbs' ..
it's a shame you emailed me after i'd already bought the carbs (downside of the timing pressure of ebay), they looked like 'standard' carbs like you were suggesting when i bought the throttle bodies before .. from the pics, i thought they actually were "side draft" style carbs ..
i have found some jetting kits for them, graves motorsports sells a dynojet kit for them for $116US .. but i'm guessing i would need a whole bunch of different jets to make them work ..

i'm certainly no expert on this subject, & if both you & wayne think i'm wasting my time on this route, i'll probably abandon it if/when a set of smoothbores comes up for sale.
oz if you want, i can get you a link i found that went into some detail on how to 'mod' the carbs.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:48 pm 
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ps. like you suggested, i checked out the sport site ..
and posted my question for the guru's there...
result ..
Hasty Horn wrote:
Too many unknowns both theoretical and practical, dump the R-1 carbs and save up for carbs you know will work.

looks like i might as well throw them back on ebay, maybe get a few $$'s towards some other carbs ..
anyone in australia want a really cheap set of carbs like oz' ?
$105us+shipping :razz:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:50 pm 
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I think we have a pretty fair idea on a good start point for tuning the carbs...but any info to look at is always good, so thanks!

There is a Mini sports sedan here running a similar set, making more power than my car and with bigger cams - his idle quality and throttle smoothness is pretty much lineball with a stock engine. He used the same tuner I have in mind for final tuning.

I've found Webers, in the past, to be thirsty, piggy things on cammed cars. Considering they require an accelerator pump in sharp throttle open situations, how efficient is their design really? These carbs require no such boost in that situation. Just a thought, anyway...something to ponder.

Once again, not arguing, just floating opinions. :)

Hope to have stuff done by mid-late January. Let you all kow if I meet with dismal failure...then you can all happily ignore any of my future posts. :D

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 Post subject: Carbs
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:33 pm 
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Kris, sorry I could no respond sooner but I am only on line once or twice a week. Phone me if you need quick reply! To All please under stand that almost ANY carb can be made to work resonably well. Without me writing a sort book on this page let me explain. A "race bike Carb" a.k.a smoothbores will Not give you any more peak horse power over a modern super bike stock carb. And that is not the reason you want them. A after market smoothbore cabs is made by the same one of two O.E.M manufacturers. Heres how finding a good used set is in my opinion better.
a) they are on a rack slide system so making your intake manifold is way easyer (saving lets say $200). b) they are set up for quick change jetting. c) they are none C.V. so what you give the throttle is what you get. d) You don't need a $150 jet kit and you won't need to chance scerwing up your carbs. e) they do not have un needed electircal crap on them to run crap you don't use. f) And this is a big one, they have excellerator pumps! ( seat of the pants squirt you will never get from C.V.'s or E.F.I). i) Huges selection of metoring rods not availible to stock carbs. This is just a short list of why in the end they are a far better way to go in my humble opinion. As for Hastey he knows his shit , he is on the inside at Yamaha U.S. As for webers they are good but as my field is bike and boat motors ,I myself would not use do to no past experance. When It comes to setting up a good intake system you must look at the picture as a hollow.and if you are making your swift into a serious sports car, I would ask why are you using a brake booster anyways? And just on a note of intrest, to show you what I mean about any carb could work. A person could take a small square bore mechanical Holley carb, like a center squirt model and build a down drafft ram manifold and make very good power and super easy tuning, Hey one barrel per cyl., all four open thottle valves open same time, tuneable ex. pumps ect. So why piss around with O.E.M. and I stress "modern" carbs? There are tons of better ways to go. .....Again just a poor old persons humble opinion.......P.S. if it's got a rev limiter it sucks


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:44 am 
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:D You may a few good points...but a few that don't really relate to individual situations. If I could afford such niceties, the thing would have quad TB's and a Motec. They don't have the seat of the pants squirt simply because it is not required in their case. They deliver the right amount of fuel for the engine's needs...if tuning is correct, of course.

My car is a daily driver and a mere toy....I can't justify spending the $$$'s on smoothbores (like $1500 or so here). My manifold will cost me a mere $200Aus. The carbs also have no electrical crap on them...lol Well..they have a TPS, but that will be wired to empty air. I can get them tuned relatively cheaply so they suit my particular situation.

Is the accelerator pump tuneable for the amount of fuel it provides? Not so great on the Weber/Dellortos I've seen. My opinion of those is that if it needs that (the Weber type carbs) then the design isn't really that efficient.

Since my cams really only make power to about 7500rpm or so, my 8200 revlimit is a nice safety catch. Even F1 guys have them. Nice stir, though!

Once again, I understand what you are saying but the smoothbore carbs really just don't suit my situation. Hence the CV's.

Thanks for all the info though...I'm always open to hearing stuff! It's just that I chose this path for the above reasons.

Regards, Lee.

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