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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:48 am 
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I'm starting this thread to discuss the possibility of building a hybrid close ratio gearset using as many factory parts to cut down costs,

As we all know the problem is the huge gap from 1st to 2nd, using a 4.4 or 4.7 final drive helps disguise the problem but makes 1st so low it can't be used for anything except getting off the line.

Lets look at the ratio's vs road speed @8000rpm, I'm using a tire size of 185/60/14 (for simplicity I have listed the USA gt box as standard ratio and the rest of the world Gti as the 'gti' ratio.

Standard with 4.1
1st 41/12 = 3.416 = 62.19kph Gap
2nd 36/19 = 1.894 = 112.16kph = 50.0kph
3rd 32/25 = 1.28 = 165.97kph = 53.8kph
4th 32/35 = 0.914 = 232.43kph = 66.5kph
5th 25/33 = 0.757 = 280.63kph = 48.2kph

Gti with 4.1
41/12 = 3.416 = 62.19kph Gap
36/19 = 1.894 = 112.16kph = 50.0kph
33/24 = 1.375 = 154.50kph = 42.3kph
34/33 = 1.030 = 206.25kph = 51.7kph
27/31 = 0.87 = 244.18kph = 37.9kph

Firstly you can see the huge gap from 1st to 2nd, a 50kph gap, percentage wise it's nearly twice as much, also the theoretical top speed is huge, not much chance any of us will hit 8k in 5th...

Lets look at the same boxes with a 4.389 final drive, the poor mans solution (me included :) )

Standard with 4.389
1st 41/12 = 3.416 = 58.09kph Gap
2nd 36/19 = 1.894 = 104.78kph = 46.7kph
3rd 32/25 = 1.28 = 155.04kph = 50.3kph
4th 32/35 = 0.914 = 217.12kph = 62.0kph
5th 25/33 = 0.757 = 262.15kph = 45.0kph

Gti with 4.389
41/12 = 3.416 = 58.09kph Gap
36/19 = 1.894 = 104.78kph = 46.7kph
33/24 = 1.375 = 144.33kph = 39.55kph
34/33 = 1.030 = 192.67kph = 48.34kph
27/31 = 0.87 = 228.10kph = 35.43kph

As you can see the gaps have shrunk on average about 3-4kph, lets look at a proper close ratio gearbox.
I've used the ratios that Rospen listed for their No2 gearset (Rospen are no longer, contact Hertz) and Landers ultra expensive dog box.

Rospen C/R with 4.1

1st = 3.076 = 69.09kph Gap
2nd = 2.056 = 103.33kph = 34.3
3rd = 1.546 = 137.41kph = 34.1
4th = 1.240 = 171.32kph = 33.9
5th = 1.030 = 206.25kph = 34.9

Landers Gearset with custom 4.3 FD

1st = 2.82 = 71.83kph Gap
2nd = 2.00 = 101.28kph = 29.45
3rd = 1.53 = 132.39kph = 31.11
4th = 1.26 = 160.76kph = 28.37
5th = 1.05 = 192.91kph = 32.15

Look at the nice consistant gaps and the decent 1st gear, you don't drop too many revs when changing.

The only problem is I don't have US$3000+ to spend on a gearbox, and if I did spend that much on a gearbox I think my wife would kill me...

To be continued...


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:54 am 
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For those of you that don't know 1st,2nd and reverse on the input shaft are made in one piece, the other half of the gears sit on the countershaft and are individual gears, 5th gear is separate on the end, it can be interchanged between a gti and standard gearset as far as I know and so are 3rd and 4th.

I've thought a lot about how to make a cheaper alternative using as many factory components.
What if we made a new input shaft with different ratios for 1st and 2nd and move them closer to 3rd gear, this would mean you would have a close ratio 1st, 2nd and 3rd and standard gaps to 4th and 5th, the gaps dependant on whether you have a gti or standard gearset.

OK so 1st gear has 41 teeth on the countershaft and 12 on the input shaft, if we alter that by 3 we would get 38 and 15 on the input shaft which gives us a ratio of 2.53, 2nd gear has 36 and 19, change by 1 tooth to 35/20 equals 1.75

with a 4.389 FD

Custom 1st 2.53 = 78.44kph Gap
Custom 2nd 1.75 = 113.40kph = 34.96
Standard 3rd 1.28 = 155.04kph = 41.64
Standard 4th 0.914 = 217.12kph = 62.08
Standard 5th 0.757 = 262.15kph = 45.0kph

OK, still got a big jump to 4th but 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears are looking much better.
What about a gti 3,4,5

Custom 1st 2.53 = 78.44kph Gap
Custom 2nd 1.75 = 113.40kph = 34.96
Gti 3rd 1.375 = 144.33kph = 30.9
Gti 4th 1.030 = 192.67kph = 48.3
Gti 5th 0.870 = 228.10kph = 35.4

Ok 3rd to 4th looks better, changing from 1st to 2nd to 3rd is pretty sweet.

What about using standard 3rd gear and gti 4 & 5

Custom 1st 2.53 = 78.44kph Gap
Custom 2nd 1.75 = 113.40kph = 34.96
Standard 3rd 1.28 = 155.04kph = 41.64
Gti 4th 1.030 = 192.67kph = 37.63
Gti 5th 0.870 = 228.10kph = 35.43

Well now we have the gaps all within 7kph of each other and the worse gap is 2nd to 3rd which is basically the same as a gti 2nd to 3rd, still not quite as good as landers box.

Lets add a 4.7 and look at the numbers again

Custom 1st 2.53 = 73.25kph Gap
Custom 2nd 1.75 = 105.90kph = 32.65
Standard 3rd 1.28 = 144.78kph = 38.88
Gti 4th 1.030 = 179.92kph = 35.14
Gti 5th 0.870 = 213.01kph = 33.09

Yes I hear you say, you didn't list a gti box with 4.7 FD

Gti 3.416 = 54.25kph Gap
Gti 1.894 = 97.85kph = 43.6
Gti 1.375 = 134.78kph = 36.96
Gti 1.030 = 179.92kph = 45.14
Gti 0.870 = 213.01kph = 33.09

So as you can see there is quite a difference between our custom set and a factory gti box, look at the road speeds, 1st is pointless in the gti/4.7 combo and there is still a large jump from 3rd to 4th, the only gap that is slightly better is 2nd to 3rd.

As you can see both the gaps and the speeds in each gear are pretty close to the rospen close ratio gearset which sold for around AU$4000, (I'm sure Brett will correct me if I'm wrong :) )

How much interest would there be if we could get a new input shaft made with a new 1st and 2nd gear, standard reverse and the associated 1st and 2nd gears that sit on the idler shaft??? I would prefer straight cut gears for extra strength and they are easier to make, it would only be noisy in 1st and 2nd.

For Our American and Canuck friends it would be worth checking to see if gti 4th and 5th gears are available new, I sure the rest of us can find a standard 3rd gear with no trouble.

Can people give me thier ideas and thoughts, any reason why it won't work, is the diametre on the smaller 1st gear going to affect whether the synchro will fit, could we use a smaller 2nd gear synchro instead if it won't fit.

Anyone know any good Engineering shops able to handle the task, ie Mondena engineering in Oz would be a good candidate, what would the interest be if they could be made for less than US$1800 or a bit over AU$2000???
Bear in mind you would still need a 4.7 or better yet a 4.9 FD but you could run it with a 4.4 until you could afford to upgrade.

Comments please.


Last edited by Dattman on Sat May 05, 2007 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:12 pm 
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I asked Jack Knight for 1st and 2nd gear +input shaft to match. They wernt interested. The important thing is the price.
Staight cut dog for 1+2, the rest synchro. Then everybody would agree on the two ratios.IMO around 2.5 1st would be right with a 1:1 4th
Again...the price

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:46 am 
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Yeah it all comes down to price, an input shaft and 2 gears has to be a lot cheaper than an input shaft and 8 gears which is what most C/R gearsets come with, the advantage of most C/R gearsets is than they require only a 3.9 or 4.1.

Yeah I've thought about almost every possible combination of ratio's and I think that 2.5 for first and 1.75 for 2nd is the best option for closing up the ratio's, the problem is the standard 4th gear, it's just too tall and using a 'rest of the world gti' 4th and 5th is the only way around the problem.

I'm going to post this on Redline as there are quite a few guys over there looking for other options, maybe we can set up a trade, Aussies send their spare gti 4th and 5th gears to the States in exchange for 4.4 Final drives :lol:


The other thing is there are a lot of guys in the States who have to run standard gearboxes in their class of racing so I'm not quite sure of the demand for this sort of thing Stateside.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:16 pm 
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I was going to give you the name of a member on redline that knew Charlie Evans in Hamilton. Charlie knew someone who could make the input shaft.
I looked up my pms and it was you!
Surely someone could make the shaft ,two gears and a dog for less than 2k

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:09 am 
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we're looking for someone over here. i found someone locally, but he said he wasnt interested.

in the end, it may just come down to getting the grpA c/r gearset


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:16 am 
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Haha, yeah unfortunately Charlie's not interested unless it's got a Rotary engine in it these days.
I have found a good gear cutter semi locally, so when I get some time I will pay him a visit, you would think it can be done for less than $2k but it pays to think conseveratively as costs can often blow out.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:30 pm 
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:D Fitted the grp A gearkit a few weeks ago to my GTI rally car, and without a doubt it's the best thing I've done, wish I'd done it 2 years ago, it's as if I've found another 30bhp in all gears and all the way through the rev range, no flat spots, no dropping off the cam, no dropping 4000rpm between 1st to 2nd gear! that was the main reason for fitting it, but the power is the same in every gear all the way to 8500rpm.
I can floor the gas at 65mph, which is around 5500/6000 rpm in 5th and she accelerates as if it's in 3rd, the only down side is more noise from the transmission, which in my car which is totally gutted, i.e every bit of sound proofing, carpet etc has been removed, means I have to wear ear defenders at anything over 50 mph!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:59 pm 
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Hi,

Stop been girly Andy!
My girls says "Daddy's car too noisy!" :lol: .
They still likes to go and me to go bumpy ride.... due to lowered suspension.
There were some Suzuki Sports close ratio gearbox for sale while back with LSD and if I recall it right, you got that LSD, Andy!

I wonder how much it would cost me to bring it over though.. :? .

You have to take some video of you car in a rally, like Dara!

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:33 pm 
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good news on the grpA gearset then. Did you keep your 4.1 diff (ie. strd suzuki countershaft pinion and crown wheel) ? not sure if UK models have this, but diff AUS models are 4.1.

i have been sitting on my hands on this gearset for about 2 years now, but my home financial controller would spit chips if i spent the money, and the dog house is getting colder now as we come into winter.

seriously though, you would recomend this change? ie. my 89 mk2 ssgti is a dedicated circuit racer, and i have nearly come to the end of the road in getting any more speed out of it, unless i spend money.

did you get the dog box or synchro mesh set? cost ?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:50 pm 
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swiftmotorsport wrote:
:D Fitted the grp A gearkit a few weeks ago to my GTI rally car, and without a doubt it's the best thing I've done...


Where did you source the grp A gear kit from and how much did cost?


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 5:09 am 
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Sorry it's taken so long for me to get back. but I've been tied up getting the car ready for my next rally, which is tomorrow (Sat 5th May).

Blackscooby, if your using the car solely for motorsport I can't recommend it highly enough, however with the 4.1 diff that I have the gearing may be a bit short for circuit racing as max top speed @ 8500 is around the 118 mph mark, but through the gears the acceleration can be best described as "bloody amazing", even my son who navigated for me all last couldn't believe how it changed the car, his exact words were "XXXX me thats quick" and he's been navigating in an ex works nissan sunny gti with 287bhp!

MF89, I got the gearkit s/h but brand new and not used from a guy in Hungary who had rolled his car into a ball! before he had chance to fit it, price wise I got a bargain bearing in mind how much they are new (around AUS $5000 from suzisport etc), I paid approx AUS $3000.

CheeRS
Andy


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:11 am 
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swiftmotorsport wrote:
price wise I got a bargain bearing in mind how much they are new (around AUS $5000 from suzisport etc),

The ratios for the Suzisport box mentioned are 3.08(1st),2.29(2nd),1.76(3rd),1.39(4th),1.16(5th) Full cluster set is A$5,500

http://www.suzisport.com/shop/PerformanceSwift_zp_Cultus_zp_Gti_1989_0n.html
They also do diff's as low as 4.93:1 on the same page.

I know replacing the whole gear cluster does not meet the original intent of this post, but the ratios are interesting in that there is no other combination quite like it.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 7:08 am 
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thanks very much for the post. i have drawn a map of some racetracks and corner speed, and by using this thread and its ratios and using them in a spreadsheet for terminal speed, my best option is to go a close ratio box.

is the suzisport a synchro or dogring engagement box, im after dog.

swiftmsport - is yours synchro or dog ?


cheers
Peter


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:44 pm 
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blackscoobydo wrote:
thanks very much for the post. i have drawn a map of some racetracks and corner speed, and by using this thread and its ratios and using them in a spreadsheet for terminal speed, my best option is to go a close ratio box.


Remember you will be approaching the corner much quicker with a CR gearset so make sure you have enough rpm left in your calculations :lol:

blackscoobydo wrote:
is the suzisport a synchro or dogring engagement box, im after dog.
cheers
Peter


Remember a dog box will require a rebuild after every season or two but thats good practice anyway.

I finally got a reply from my gearcutter, he seems quite interested, I'll take out the gears next week and he said he'll give me a quote, we'll see what happens :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:04 pm 
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86mk1gti wrote:
The ratios for the Suzisport box mentioned are 3.08(1st),2.29(2nd),1.76(3rd),1.39(4th),1.16(5th) Full cluster set is A$5,500

I know replacing the whole gear cluster does not meet the original intent of this post, but the ratios are interesting in that there is no other combination quite like it.


Yeah it's an interesting set of ratio's, it's built for rallying where you are unlikely to need to go any faster than 180kph, which in a Swift on gravel with it's short wheelbase is scary fast... IMO for circuit racing you want 5th to be 1 to 1... geared for about 200kph flatout


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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 1:47 am 
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Dattman wrote:

I'm going to post this on Redline as there are quite a few guys over there looking for other options, maybe we can set up a trade, Aussies send their spare gti 4th and 5th gears to the States in exchange for 4.4 Final drives :lol:
.

I have stripped out a 4.39 I am saving for BewitchedGti.I NEED to go to the Salvage yard and start stripping some 4.39 to help ya guys out!! One good thing about the 4.39 is the Jump off the line,which is crucial to our cars in Drag Racing for 60' times.

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 7:11 pm 
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Anything new on the 1st and 2nd gear project?

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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 3:34 am 
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Yeah I have met a boffin engineer last week who has put me onto a specialised gear cutting company locally, I have been trying to sneak off work early to visit them and I also have a gearcutting company about an hours drive away which I will also get to price it up..

According to this engineer I have to figure out the centre distance between the gears first so I can figure out how many teeth actually fit into the space on the gear, it's not quite as simple as adding 3 teeth onto one gear and taking 3 off another, this I already knew but made it easier to explain initially.
The only really tricky part is figuring out what cutting profile the reverse gear is as the reverse gear on the input shaft must be relicated exactly so the existing reverse gear on the countershaft can be reused.

I think the pitch on the gears is 20 degrees but haven't yet figured out which of the main two cutting profiles is used.

The new first and second gears are no problem as you can use what ever cutting profile you like as you are making both gears.

The engineer I talked to said there's a pretty good chance of making a new input shaft with 3 gears on it and two new gears for less than US$1500, lets see what gear cutting companies quote :razz:


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 7:25 pm 
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Well with my calipers I got: one bearing=62mm, second bearing=42mm.
The distance between the bearing housings= 8mm.
So 31+21+8= 60mm between gear centres.
This is rough with calipers not mikes and bore gauges.
This is what he wants?

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:06 am 
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Thanks Boondogle, I finally got to the gearcutting company today, the Engineer will work out the centre distance mathematically tomorrow but 60mm sounds about right.
Still don't know whether Suzuki used 'PD' or 'Module' cutting profiles but hopefully I'll find out tomorrow.
The gearcutters said it was no problem to make but warned they can't actually make the gears any stronger than the original gears as the strength is more a function of the design rather than the quality of materials used, not really a problem as the gap from 1st to 2nd is the main problem.

They also mentioned that it took more time to set up the tooling than it did to actually cut the gears so making 1 set would be considerably more expensive per unit than if they made 5 at once.

The problem is you really need to make one set and test it properly before committing to 5 sets.
Anyone else what to be the guinea pig ? :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 3:25 pm 
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I'll do it, if the ratios are like you mentioned right at the start of this thread.
Also is it straight cut or helical, dog or sync.
And price.....

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 3:37 am 
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yep am into i just toasted my 5th gear Pm me


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:54 am 
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mijerseyswift wrote:
yep am into i just toasted my 5th gear Pm me


I suggest you read this thread carefully as this project is only about a new 1st and 2nd gear, you would still have to use your existing 3rd ,4th and 5th gears and would require a 4.4 FD.

The gearcutting company I have been talking to also makes stuff for Pratt and Whitney, any company that can make parts for a turbofan engine should have no problem making parts for a little ole swift :razz:

The ratio's I asked for were 2.6 for 1st and 1.75 for 2nd.
They are going to be straight cut and synchro, the idea being to use standard hubs and synchro's and keep it as close to standard as possible just with better ratio's, I can understand some people wanting dog engagement hubs but that meant re-engineering the hubs which would mean more cost due to design time and would introduce a significant unknown quantity in terms of performance and reliability.


Last edited by Dattman on Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 9:09 am 
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Very interesting project Dattman, i'll be keeping a watchful eye on your progress. Good to see a lot of input being contributed in by a lot of members, I really hope it works out.


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