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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:05 pm 
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OK, I'm new to this so bear with me. I am about to buy a 1994 Suzuki Swift GT 5spd. I can get it for really cheap, because the transmission is pretty much broken. Everything else works great. Instead of trying to figure out what is wrong and fixing that, I figured it would be a lot less of a headache just to swap out the transmissions, but try as I might I could not find any GT transmissions for sale anywhere within hundreds of miles of me. From what I've read, a transmission from a pre-95 1.0 Metro should go in just fine, and has the same gear and final drive ratios. Is that correct? I have found multiple of those close to me.

I just have a few questions about the procedure. Firstly, I have read many things about the torque bar. I know my way around car stuff, but I have never heard of a torque bar, and neither has google. So, what is it, what does it look like, and should I keep the one from the Swift or use the one from the Metro?

Secondly, the speedo gear. The Metro has 12" tires and the Swift GT has 14". So should I use the speedo gear from the GT or the Metro?

Finally, I have read that the tranny from a Metro isn't as strong as the one from the GT. Is this true? Will there be a noticeable risk/difference? Would it be worth it to just rebuild the transmission?

Also, any thing else I should be aware of or whatever before doing this? Any extra info would be great.
Thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:31 pm 
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OK, this is one of the most covered topics on this board, and yet I tried to use the search function to answer your question succinctly and fell short.

(And I am not alone. Yet guys on the forum who already know the answers haven't gone back to look since 80 more irrelevant posts that aren't as clear as the really good one somebody wrote up 5 years ago have piled up so it's now buried under redundant, less informative posts like this one. These folks are really nice people but have a tendency to chew you out because they know the information is already here, somewhere...)

So in the meantime I am not going to feel too guilty about making things slightly worse by attempting to answer your question:

I know that there is an excellent post, with pictures, that explains the differences between all of the transmissions and what it means for doing a swap. Unfortunately, after 40 minutes of wading through search I couldn't find it--consider this a plea to one of the admins to make that post a sticky :idea: If you can find that post, you'll be golden!

Here's what I am pretty sure of based on my memory of better posts and what I've actually done to my car:

All the innards of all the transmissions for all of the cars 89+ (1.0, 1.3, Mk2/3, Mk4) are interchangeable--I know nothing of Mk1 (Chevy Sprint). The GT trans has a beefier crown wheel and differential. The thicker crown wheel gear is not that critical, but the differential probably is if you are going to race or drive your car "briskly". I do not know how hard it is to simply swap the GT diff to the Metro trans.

Here's what I am pretty sure of but I would like someone more knowledgeable to confirm:

I am not sure about Mk1 (Sprint) transmissions but I believe you can swap any Metro trans into a GT with no modifications (other than the caveats above), but GT to metro requires some minor work (Edit: I got this backwards). The irony here (and this is what I spent a good portion of my morning trying to confirm) is that the critical difference is that the GT has an extra bolt hole/bracket on one side. I am not sure exactly how this works, but it seems that the extra material is in the way on a Metro? I don't know what a torque bar is either, but I suspect this is someone's word for the intermediate shaft between the transmission and the right hand CV axle on a GT that makes the CV axles equal length to prevent torque steer. I would have thought the the Metro trans wouldn't work on a GT because of the mount points needed for this intermediate shaft, but apparently that's not the case and it's the other way around, if I recall correctly (No, it IS that way around, but some people have had at least temporary success by mounting the bracket without that extra mount support--I wouldn't try it though). The information is on this forum somewhere, so if you find it follow up, or maybe somebody smarter than I am will clarify for us after chewing us out.

My recommendation for donor pieces, if you would like a bit more pick up at the expense of mpg is to swap in a 1995 or later 1.0 Metro tranny, as they are both more common and have a slightly shorter 4.39:1 final drive, which can also be found in the convertibles. Gear ratios, at least, are very easy to find on the forum, so do some research on what the differences are and what you are looking for. I swapped the crown wheel and pinion from a Metro trans into my GT for the 4.39 final drive along with the other good bits that weren't broken when I had a full rebuild done on it, but I believe this would be effectively the same as putting the GT diff in a known-to-be-good Metro trans before swapping in the whole unit. I am still getting 33-36 mpg and the improved acceleration and shift points are quite noticeable, though you will be turning rather high RPMS (over 5000) if you are into cruising at 90 on the interstate. If you choose a model that has a different final drive, either taller or shorter, you will want to use the speedo gear from your GT so your speedometer reads correctly.

My ulterior motive in trying to find this info for you is that I have found that what I did to my car (swap internal bits from a 97 metro) is technically illegal in the SCCA class I run in autocross, because while I can swap a whole transmission I am not supposed to swap parts (except the diff, that's ok). So, if a Metro transmission will bolt in with no modifications (which I believe is correct) then there is no effective difference and I am just going to tell the tech inspectors that that is what I have done instead...

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Last edited by Teeth on Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:46 pm 
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OK. I think I am going to just try and keep the final drive the same at 4.10, which means I just keep the Swift GT speedo gear, correct?

Also, I do get your point, and I would rather have the durableness(word?) of the GT diff. Is there a way to keep the GT diff but put in the Metro tranny? Or is there an equivalent?

Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:15 pm 
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No, the speedo gear has nothing to do with the final drive, just the size wheels that are on the car. The Metro's are geared for 13's and the Swift GT for 14's.

FYI, bad news for me (and for you too, sort of), I need to edit my post because doing some more research on my own, I am pretty sure I stated things a bit backwards previously and I am going to have to edit my post before I lead others astray:

That extra bolt hole on the GT trans is for that intermediate shaft. I found some poster's claiming they can mount the trans without it and I suppose you could fabricate and weld on that extra support, but I don't think either approach is a great idea. You can use the trans case from a 1.3L 4 cylinder Metro because they have the same intermediate shaft. The same caveats about weaker diff and crown wheel still apply however, and they have a 3.79, not a 4.1. In fact, I could be wrong, but I think the 4.1 GT final drive is unique. Check the gear ratios sticky for that and check out this relevant post:

http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=53415&p=399878&hilit=metro+to+gt+transmission+swap#p399878

You are probably better off getting the donor transmission and swapping the internals--I didn't do mine myself, but I should have as there is an excellent thread that gives you all the information you need for a full rebuild:

http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=42589

Which should definitely be a sticky! Phil N Ed for President!

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Spanish Inquisition Racing chip burning service--build yourself a custom chip!
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=57216


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:33 pm 
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Teeth wrote:
No, the speedo gear has nothing to do with the final drive, just the size wheels that are on the car. The Metro's are geared for 13's and the Swift GT for 14's.

FYI, bad news for me (and for you too, sort of), I need to edit my post because doing some more research on my own, I am pretty sure I stated things a bit backwards previously and I am going to have to edit my post before I lead others astray:

That extra bolt hole on the GT trans is for that intermediate shaft. I found some poster's claiming they can mount the trans without it and I suppose you could fabricate and weld on that extra support, but I don't think either approach is a great idea. You can use the trans case from a 1.3L 4 cylinder Metro because they have the same intermediate shaft. The same caveats about weaker diff and crown wheel still apply however, and they have a 3.79, not a 4.1. In fact, I could be wrong, but I think the 4.1 GT final drive is unique. Check the gear ratios sticky for that and check out this relevant post:

http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=53415&p=399878&hilit=metro+to+gt+transmission+swap#p399878


No, the 89-94 1.0 L 3cyl. Metro's have the 4.10

Teeth wrote:
You are probably better off getting the donor transmission and swapping the internals--I didn't do mine myself, but I should have as there is an excellent thread that gives you all the information you need for a full rebuild:

http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=42589

Which should definitely be a sticky! Phil N Ed for President!


If I just "swap the internals" does that mean I can keep the crown wheel and diff from the GT? They are fine I think, it's just the synchros that are whack. And, if I'm just going to rebuild, would buying this(which has been highly rated from everything I've read) http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-Geo-Metro-5s ... 5a&vxp=mtr

be better than than one from an old Metro?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Quote:
No, the 89-94 1.0 L 3cyl. Metro's have the 4.10


:huh: ? Check again. G10 Metro's up to 94 have a 3.89 and 12" tires. Turbo Fireflys (Canada) got 4.10's, but that's going to be a bit hard to find.

Quote:
If I just "swap the internals" does that mean I can keep the crown wheel and diff from the GT? They are fine I think, it's just the synchros that are whack. And, if I'm just going to rebuild, would buying this(which has been highly rated from everything I've read) http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-Geo-Metro-5s ... 5a&vxp=mtr

be better than than one from an old Metro?


Yes you can keep the crown wheel and diff from the GT, but you'd be keeping the case too at this point right? So that should be fairly obvious, but remember you're getting advice from someone who didn't do the work himself when he had this done. That crown wheel and pinion gear set are what sets your 4.10 final drive.

As far as just getting the kit, if you are sticking with the 4.10 anyway, then the kit might have everything you need. I see that it contains new "synchro rings" but I am not knowledgeable enough to know whether there is more to your synchro problems than just the parts replaced in the kit. If that's all you need that's way better than hoping they are good on a salvage Metro transmission--if the 2nd gear synchros aren't bad yet on a Metro of unknown history, they'll likely go soon enough.

When you have repaired whatever carnage you find in your trans, be sure to use GM Synchromesh gear oil when you put it back together and it will last much longer.

I do think that's the best option, but would love someone to chime in on exactly how bad of an idea it is to bolt in the 95+ 4.39 trans without the support, because that's what I might have to do someday to be properly legal in my SCCA class.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:29 pm 
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89-94 trannies have 4.1 to 1 ratio with the 3cyl turbo and non turbo models. Gt and turbo models have a slightly heavier diff and wider crown gear.
I have a hunch one difference you are mentioning about the torque bar thing is actually a brace that bolts to the gt block and down to the trans. Only gt trannies have a place to bolt this on the engine side of the transmission case half. Ideally this is nice to have, but in reality will not cause any grief if its not used. This is not the weakest point in these gearboxes.
I'm pretty certain all gearboxes will mount up and work fine behind the gt eng, and survive well with a fairly stock engine. Most cases of multiple failures are due to high horsepower and torque output(turbo usually), major abuse, or just getting really worn trannies that are close to toast when installed. If you are just getting started, grab the best you can find and toss it in.
The 95+ 3cyl will offer added performance due to better suited gear ratio. I would avoid all Sohc 4 cyl trans due to 3.52 ratio in older ones, 3.79 ratio in the later models. In my experience the 3.79 trannies from 95+(particularly 98-2000 ones) have high bearing failure rates, while in normal use the older ones rarely had bearing issues. The most common failure with all the 3cyl trannies is elongated slots in the brass synchro ring for 2nd gear, with first also common. Symptom that presents itself is finding that the trans just will not shift into second or first on deceleration. Ive fixed quite a few by just going in and replacing the first and second synchro ring, and seals for good measure while I was in there.
The difference on the shifter support rod mounting point is the only area that I'm not 100% on, seems to me the 3cyl case works with 4cyl, but some 4cyl ones lack one mounting ear to bolt the shift support to.
I hope that covers most of what you are needing.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:09 am 
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Whoops :oops:

Thanks for correcting my misinformation on the gear ratios, though I did find it elsewhere on this forum.

I'd love to see some pictures of the extra lug in question as mounted in the car without the brace. I just rebuilt my center shaft and yet I still don't know exactly where that brace is and what I would be leaving out if I swapped in the Metro trans case. I suppose it will be obvious when I actually do it--I wonder if it is missing already on my car, even though I have the GT trans in it, as there is a bolt hole with nothing in it that may be the one for that brace. Next time I have the car up on stands I'll post a pic.

Now I really do feel bad for making this topic more cluttered--we could really use a transmission swap sticky showing a matrix of what transmissions will go in what cars with and without modifications and caveats explaining missing braces, weaker diffs, etc...

Seth

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:57 pm 
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I think the torque bar you are talking about is the rod that mounts between the shifter and the back of the transaxle. The three cyl trany mounts in a different position than the 4 banger trany so you might have to do a little fabricating to make it work.


Ken.....


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:07 pm 
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Boy, I'd sure like some definitive answers/pictures explaining exactly what needs to be done to make the swap work using the Metro case.

I believe the reason I rebuilt my GT trans and swapped the 4.39 into it is precisely because I couldn't get anything more specific out of the forum and wanted to make sure everything worked...

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No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Spanish Inquisition Racing chip burning service--build yourself a custom chip!
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=57216


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:42 pm 
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there's a cast steel arm that bolts to the front of the gt engine with 2 bolts and matches up to an "extra" lug on the bell flange of the gt/ turbo3 specific transmission. i've run both the gt and the turbo3 engines on standard transmissions from vert that didn't have the "extra" mounting lug or the heavier pinion without any problems.

but then i'm not doing hole shots or stupid shifting. :-P

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:56 pm 
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Thanks T3.

So the definitive answer is that you do have to leave a brace off, but you don't have to weld or fabricate anything, despite Ragtop 91's comments.

Can somebody teach me how to "stupid shift"?

Is this what we're talking about?

Image

I do autocross my car, so while I might be able to live without this brace and a thinner crown wheel, the stronger diff is fairly important to me.


Last edited by Teeth on Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:42 pm 
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Or this? Is this empty threaded hole supposed to have something in it?

Image


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:32 pm 
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Ok, I've decided to keep my original case and just rebuild the transmission using the service manual and these threads:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbullet ... p?t=907782
http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=42589
http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=50486
viewtopic.php?p=82299#82299

My next set of question are, once I have this rebuild kit:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-Geo-Metro-MV ... 34&vxp=mtr

and I have the case open, how difficult of a job is it to replace the new parts from the kit (main and counter roller bearings, seals, and synchro rings) with the equivalent old parts from the tranny? Also, will I need any "special" tools? Am I going to have to set preload on bearings, and will I need a press for that?

Thanks


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