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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:58 pm 
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Hi, I'm planning on getting a 4.1 final drive as a spare for my mk3 GT but there are two choices... either a 24mm or a 19mm. does anyone know which one will fit the stock gears?

thank you

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:41 am 
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Your GT tranny should have the wide crown gear, the narrow gear is in the 89-94 Metro tranny.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:43 am 
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me and my metro wrote:
Your GT tranny should have the wide crown gear, the narrow gear is in the 89-94 Metro tranny.

Thanks for the reply.... so the Metro had a 4.1 final drive as well?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:05 pm 
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It actually makes no difference, the important thing is you get a matching pair, there are at least 3 different pitchs used on 4.1 crownwheels and countershaft pinions gear so make sure they are a matching set, as for the width, yes the gt's and turbo three have the wider one but almost all damage to final drives is on the pinion gear mostly due to worn bearings and axial thrust so I wouldn't be too concerned with using a narrower one( or else it's bit of exploded diff passing between the pinion and crownwheel has breaks off teeth:lol: )


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:45 pm 
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Dattman wrote:
It actually makes no difference, the important thing is you get a matching pair, there are at least 3 different pitchs used on 4.1 crownwheels and countershaft pinions gear so make sure they are a matching set, as for the width, yes the gt's and turbo three have the wider one but almost all damage to final drives is on the pinion gear mostly due to worn bearings and axial thrust so I wouldn't be too concerned with using a narrower one( or else it's bit of exploded diff passing between the pinion and crownwheel has breaks off teeth:lol: )

Thanks for the info man. I thought the gears were interchangeable, that's a pity cuz GTI gearboxes are getting REALLY HARD to find! So if I have a bad first gear by example.... I will have to basically change everything on the box?! that sucks

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:21 am 
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:huh: The gears are interchangible... we're talking about your 'final drive' or diff ratio.

I've attached a photo, the countershaft has the pinion gear attached, the white part of the counter shaft is exactly the same as all other mk2/3 g10/g13 countershafts, the actual 1st to 5th gears that mount on the shaft are interchangible. The pinion gear on the end is matched to the crownwheel, the ratio between the number of teeth on the crownwheel and the pinion shaft is what we refer to as the diff or final drive ratio, so a '4.1' has 78 teeth and the pinion gear has 19 teeth, as I mentioned before the 4.1 has 3 different pitch configurations so you need to get a matching countershaft and crownwheel if you are going to buy there seperately.

Attachment:
CWP.jpg
CWP.jpg [ 119.08 KIB | Viewed 2909 times ]


If you want to buy an existing box then anything from a g10 will be close, the actual diff will be smaller and not quite a strong but the pre 95 models also have a 4.1 FD.
Attachment:
Jan19 008e.jpg
Jan19 008e.jpg [ 102.27 KIB | Viewed 2909 times ]


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:54 am 
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that's a really good explanation.... this is the source of the "misunderstanding" viewtopic.php?f=15&t=54483. In that post 2 different final drives are mentioned... one is 24.05 mm tall and the other one is 19 mm. Maybe he meant the width of the pinion gear at the end of the counter-shaft? I thought he meant the width of the counter shaft, which is why I thought that gears were not interchangeable; as you can see I'm totally new to gearboxes.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:23 pm 
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Get yourself a 4.39 fd tans. You can find them in 95+ metros that came with the 3cyl NA. They also had smaller 13" rims I think. Put that into your GTi and you'll love it! :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:11 pm 
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Those are really hard to find here, but who knows maybe I get lucky. The thing I really hate about the stock gearbox in the big gap between first and second gear... the car feels like bogging for a bit after the switch. For me the perfect set-up would be a higher second and a lower fifth (for cruising).

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:46 am 
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Yep the huge gap between 1st and 2nd is also the cause of excessive syncro wear, fixing 5th gear is easy, just use the standard 0.757 5th gear instead of the gti (except Nth America) 0.87, will be a large jump though.

Heres a graph to show you standard gti vs the same gearbox but with a 4.389 and standard 5th gear, notice how the rpm drop is the same for all gears except the much taller 5th gear, changing final drive ratio's inproves acceleration IN each gear as you lower the road speed but does not reduce the rpm drop BETWEEN gears.
Attachment:
gti vs 44 &tall 5th.jpg
gti vs 44 &tall 5th.jpg [ 61.86 KIB | Viewed 2864 times ]


I have already made a solution for 1st and 2nd gears, not strong enough for a turbo car but has been excellent for hillclimbs, autocrosses, motorkhanas and circuit racing.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31858&start=25


Last edited by Dattman on Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:50 am 
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^^^There's a lot of good info in that thread.... really helpful to understand the available gear-choices. What about this...

jankoelbola wrote:
that's a really good explanation.... this is the source of the "misunderstanding" viewtopic.php?f=15&t=54483. In that post 2 different final drives are mentioned... one is 24.05 mm tall and the other one is 19 mm.


Do you know what he meant with that?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:15 pm 
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He's refering to the width of the pinion gear on the countershaft, the narrow one as usually 3 cyl where as the wider ones are usually 4cyl, having a narrower crownwheel is not the weakest link, all of the 4.4's are narrow and we race them just fine.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:39 pm 
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Your help has been really great Dattman, thanks again for all the info. Now I know what I should be looking for.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:20 pm 
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I don't know how to check the market my car comes from, but by doing a cross-reference from your thread and the actual rpm vs speed of my car, I'm pretty much 100% sure I have the GTI transmission; so at least that's a good start. If get my hands on a 4.389 final drive I'll probably throw that in there, along with a lower fifth gear(which will probably come from one of you guys) for a decent cruising speed.
However I'm still considering the 1.6L gearbox-conversion cuz I feel like a turbo-project will show up eventually, so I want to make smart investments. Specially cuz I like to drop the clutch a lot! and even tho I'm only aiming for 150hp I don't think the stock diff will hold long with me behind the wheel :-P But who knows, time will tell.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:45 pm 
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I was considering the 1.6l gearbox, but didn't like the specs so much:
Swift Sedan G16B (5MT)
(1) 3.250
(2) 1.772
(3) 1.233
(4) 0.911
(5) 0.769
Final: 3.722

Besides the G-family gearboxes or the hyundai accent transmission... is there any other alternative? Meaning something stronger that the GTI-one, but still with a decent final drive and gear-ratios?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:24 am 
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The gears aren't great, slightly better than the standard small frame g10/g13 gears, the diff ratio is the biggest problem.

The large frame g16 swift sedan box shares many parts from the j18 and m series boxes, the best option is to find a m16 swift sport box, it has similar ratio's to the gti and comes with a 4.4 diff, take all the internals out and install them into a g16 swift sedan box, thats the best solution for a stronger box using factory parts, if you just want to run the g16 sedan box then you can use the 4.1 from the m15 standard swift.

If you go ahead then I can point you to the right people regarding the specifics but you need to actually figure out what you can source locally and afford beforehand.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:31 am 
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Dattman wrote:
The gears aren't great, slightly better than the standard small frame g10/g13 gears, the diff ratio is the biggest problem.

The large frame g16 swift sedan box shares many parts from the j18 and m series boxes, the best option is to find a m16 swift sport box, it has similar ratio's to the gti and comes with a 4.4 diff, take all the internals out and install them into a g16 swift sedan box, thats the best solution for a stronger box using factory parts, if you just want to run the g16 sedan box then you can use the 4.1 from the m15 standard swift.

If you go ahead then I can point you to the right people regarding the specifics but you need to actually figure out what you can source locally and afford beforehand.

I actually wanted to know if someone adapted a box from a non-suzuki, besides the hyunday accent one; so I could source one at the yunkyard.

There are no newer swifts at the yunkyards around here, but I might get lucky if I ask around. I don't know about your country, but over here... people put prices on cars and parts according to the release-year and not to condition or quality; hence my suggestion for a non-suzuki, probably from the 90's as well (which of are plenty at the junk-yards)

Anyway this may sound like a dumb question but why not replacing the whole gearbox with one from he M-series? What could be more complicated with that mod, than modifying the M-internals to suit the G16- bellhousing and further modifying the bellhousing to suit the G13-block?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:06 pm 
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It's not just the bell housing bolt pattern which is completely different, things like starter motor mounting, rear motor/box mount, front gearbox mount, the g16 sedan box is almost a straight bolt in.

The only other conversion that I know of is the vaxhaul/opel corsa box, you can buy adapter plates and they are slightly stronger but most of the guys do the conversion because close ratio gearsets are much cheaper than buying a suzuki set, you would need to do some digging around on the UK sites like suzuki4u.com


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:15 pm 
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Nice! Thanks for the tip, I will.

One last question... for now =) . Do you know of diff-alternatives, besides LSD's? If I could get a stronger Diff, I would be very happy, at least until I decide to go turbo; but that again can take years.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:28 pm 
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[quote="jankoelbola" Do you know of diff-alternatives, besides LSD's? If I could get a stronger Diff, I would be very happy[/quote]

Yeah ask around for a TIG or MIG diff :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:40 pm 
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Haha My steering rack is pretty bad already... don't wanna put extra stress on it. I drove a starlet with a welded diff once and wow that was a hell on trafic! A stronger open diff from another car would be perfect, I'm not that concerned about the gears or the FD; at least not for now :p

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:32 am 
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So how many diffs have you broken in your swift so far???


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:37 am 
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Nope I haven't. But I'm gonna start taking the car to the track regularly and having heard the stories about broken diffs even with stock engines.... I wanted to explore my options before it happens. It can take months before I find a stock GTI diff around here, as there are not much GTIs left. I've own swifts for 5 years and the only one that came for sale in the newspaper in all that time is the one I bought a couple of months ago; never seen one at the yunkyard either. Even the guy that sold me his, which has own 15 GTIs so far and probably knows everybody in the "swift-game", is having a hard time finding one, now that he misses them. hahaha he even tried to buy the car from me again!

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:08 am 
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I guess my point is these gearboxes are not as bad as some people make out, I've spent the last 5 years thrashing my stock standard gti diff at the track, drags and hillclimbs and have had no problems what so ever.

The main problem is wear on the diff pin and the resulting back lash, if your diff is a bit tired then send it to Dmwdave and he can machine up a new pin and bring it back to near new tollerances, this will make a big difference, if you can't find a spare then the g15/g16 baleno/esteem has the same diff.

Not being stupid with single wheel burnouts is also a great way to make your diff and gearbox live.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:41 am 
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Believe or not I've never done burn-outs with any of my swifts. I do launch at full throttle on first gear and hard-shifting to second, causing lots of wheel-spin. I'm planning on upgrading to semi-slicks, there for my concern about the Diff.
There's one guy selling me a used diff with good spider-gears but with a broken pin... he said it was a LSD haha wtf?! Anyway what material do you think the pin should me made of? There are a couple of local machine-shops that could do the job.

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