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 Post subject: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:45 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:43 pm
Posts: 720
Location: Texas 75150
I started building geo 5 speed tranny's, because I have the tools and the knowledge to do a better job
then the local transmission shops. I think paying $1,000.00 to overhaul a trans (already pulled) is to much to pay.
If your close to Dallas, Texas, and want a great job done. I will build then for $250.00 plus parts. You have to pull it.
Things that I do to cure some of the known issues:
1st and 2nd gear syncros need to have the forcing cones on the gears ruffed back up. I used to use sandpaper in the past, but the fix never lasted. Today I use garnet in my glass beading tank to ruff up the foring cones. I have also made up a set of plugs that go into the bearing hole of each different gear before it is blasted. Make the plugs fit tightly so you don't get abrasive on the inside bearing surface of the gear. I tape off the gear faces for the same reason. If you have access to hard paraphine wax, heat up the paraphine and dip the gear into it. Once cooled, exacto knife off the wax to just expose the forcing cone area.
I have several 5 speeds out there with over 4 years of use built this way and they still shift great.
I do all the forcing cones on all the forward gears, and then new brass syncros too.
Now if you do it this way, you don't have to run that crappy syncromesh GM trans fluid. You can run Mobil One 75/90
Other little things that I see wrong:
The 3 shift rod ball detent springs, the ones you see the threaded covers on the outside of the transmission, Have 2 different length springs. Two small ones and one longer one. The longer one always goes in the center hole.
Make sure you have the two hollow guides in your bell housing area. If only one or none you will wear out the end of the input shaft and load the input shaft bearing really badly. Clutch vibrations at higher RPM are a sign of them not there. With out the guides, there is a misalignment of the engine to transmission.
All seals must be installed from the outside. Except the input shaft seal. I pack the back of the seals with vasoline to keep the springs from falling out. If the springs falls out of it grove on the back of the lip seal that seal will leak.
GM sells new spider and pinion gear shim sets for the differential. The later model front wheel drive car sets will work on the Geo's. Don't get them to tight or you will feal it in the steering on turns. But most of the Geo tranny's need them done.
My book says 16 pounds of torque on the housing bolts.. I have had better luck and less leaks at 12 pounds
A new or a known good shift shaft dust boot is a must have item. For the desert rats it keeps the sand out of the seal. For the northern snow and ice boys it keeps the ice, water, and salt out of the seal. For the Northen boys I would pack some light grease in it to help keep the shaft from rusting too.
When you install your axles, make sure your retaining rings split is facing up. Or you will bend the retaining ring ends and have an axle that will not want to stay in the transmission.
Teflone tape the drain plug or use anti-seize compound.
If you run your 5 speed low or out of oil, 5th gear is the first to go. It will blue the gears, roller bearing, and also show signs of excessive wear on the 5th gear shift fork.
If you strip your fill plug out, don't sweat it. Just JB weld it back in place and use the alternate fill location. The speedo cable hole! Oil level up to the bottom of the machined area for the speedo cable is 2-1/2 quarts.
I know because I measured out 2-1/2 quarts to see where it would be.
Well tear this thread apart and have a Merry Christmas. Screw being politically correct!

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Fainya
97 Geo Metro LSI,1.3L-GT-DOHC-16v,4.10 5-speed,A/C,170,000,suspension lowered 1",4 wheel disk brakes,15"alloy wheels with 185/50-15 Toyo's,GT bucket seats,analog oil pressure gauge,cruise control, new paint job. 40 mpg at 65 mph.
Good, fast, cheap. You only get two.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:19 am
Posts: 361
Location: Canberra, Australlia
Quote:
1st and 2nd gear syncros need to have the forcing cones on the gears ruffed back up. I used to use sandpaper in the past, but the fix never lasted. Today I use garnet in my glass beading tank to ruff up the foring cones. I have also made up a set of plugs that go into the bearing hole of each different gear before it is blasted. Make the plugs fit tightly so you don't get abrasive on the inside bearing surface of the gear. I tape off the gear faces for the same reason. If you have access to hard paraphine wax, heat up the paraphine and dip the gear into it. Once cooled, exacto knife off the wax to just expose the forcing cone area.


Thanks for the info. Very useful.

Are you able to provide a little more info on the syncro issue and pictures? I am rebuilding a box (my first) and am interested in doing the best I can.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:01 pm 
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Suzuki Elder
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
Posts: 11669
Location: columbus, ohio
wow! :shock:

this is very timely information and fortuitous for me as i have been stalling on a transmission rebuild. :wink:

fainya, get ready for some work. :lol:

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:54 pm 
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Posts: 412
Location: sidney, nebraska
Where do get the synchros? I have found the bearings but not synchros.

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1990 geo metro 1.0 5 speed 3-door hatchback "herbie"
1990 geo metro 1.0 5 speed convertible "sportie"


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:37 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:43 pm
Posts: 720
Location: Texas 75150
The same guys who sell the bearing kit on Ebay also sell the kits with seals and syncro's. I think the kits are up to $170. Email them and tell them what you want. They are good guys and will usually post a full kit on ebay for you.
Also look at the California companies that sell the clutch parts on ebay. I get my kits from this guy.
His Ebay stor link is http://stores.ebay.com/TRANSPARTS-AT-THE-BEST-PRICES

As for pictures of what I do to the forcing cones, give me a couple of days. I will get them posted.

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Fainya
97 Geo Metro LSI,1.3L-GT-DOHC-16v,4.10 5-speed,A/C,170,000,suspension lowered 1",4 wheel disk brakes,15"alloy wheels with 185/50-15 Toyo's,GT bucket seats,analog oil pressure gauge,cruise control, new paint job. 40 mpg at 65 mph.
Good, fast, cheap. You only get two.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:58 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:19 am
Posts: 361
Location: Canberra, Australlia
fainya wrote:
As for pictures of what I do to the forcing cones, give me a couple of days. I will get them posted.


Fantastic. Thanks for that.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:13 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:02 pm
Posts: 16
Location: camano Island, Washington
This is what he was talking about wear on the 5th gear fork.
Wouldn't recommend it.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:02 pm
Posts: 16
Location: camano Island, Washington
Synchro & Bearing Kit, Metro 89-Up (1.0L, 1.3L) (Geo) (GM) (Suzuki) $72.99

http://cobratransmission.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_1930&products_id=50139003



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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:53 pm
Posts: 645
Location: brainerd MN
Are you willing to take a stab at a 87 sprint turbo 5speed, that every once in a while will jump to neutral???? :worship: :worship: :worship: (Paleeeze???) thanks, Jonathan

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Current stable:
1987 Sprint Turbo (Porsche Guards Red) 75k 5sp,AC, w/cruise, Resto-Mod,owned since 1997) (looking for dash-pad)
1989 GTI (white)104k 5sp,AC (Resto-mod completed 1999). (looks great, But rusted out ,need clean southern body.)Help!?
1991 Vert (red) 129k 5sp,AC, Resto-Mod, 75% Done.(Clean SW car)
1993 GT(Teal) 103k 5sp,AC,w/PW (Resto-Mod,60% done.)(Clean SW car)
1994 Swift GS 4Dr sedan (Painted 2005 Ford Kona Blue) 95k 1.3 SOHC 5sp


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:43 pm
Posts: 720
Location: Texas 75150
87 transmissions are completely different then what we are using now. Nothing will work in those boxes. I have looked for rebuild kits and they all say no.
Biggest difference is your box has a true idler gear. this is a lower shaft with all 5 gears cut on it. The other difference is that year had all of the syncros and gear shift sliders on the input shaft. This makes for a weak transmission.
And no a late model trans will not swap in. To many differences. Linkage, axle splines, length of axles, mounts, and shift linkage.

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Fainya
97 Geo Metro LSI,1.3L-GT-DOHC-16v,4.10 5-speed,A/C,170,000,suspension lowered 1",4 wheel disk brakes,15"alloy wheels with 185/50-15 Toyo's,GT bucket seats,analog oil pressure gauge,cruise control, new paint job. 40 mpg at 65 mph.
Good, fast, cheap. You only get two.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:15 am 
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Teamswift Racer
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Location: Christchurch NZ, quake capital
Prairie to Pine Co. wrote:
Are you willing to take a stab at a 87 sprint turbo 5speed, that every once in a while will jump to neutral???? :worship: :worship: :worship: (Paleeeze???) thanks, Jonathan

If it jumps into neutral I would be having a very close look at your engine and gearbox mounts.

Fainya is correct, 1st generation suzuki gearboxes are completely different from 2nd generation boxes, most but not all (market and year dependant) have all the pinion gears on the input shaft but I have come across a few mk1 boxes than have the same layout as the mk2/3 boxes, either way the only common parts between generations is 2 seals and the crownwheel, no other parts are interchangable.

Attachment:
GB 001a.jpg
GB 001a.jpg [ 221.09 KIB | Viewed 5806 times ]


Last edited by Dattman on Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:43 pm
Posts: 720
Location: Texas 75150
Here are some of the differences and some of the mods that I do when I build a Geo 5 speed transmission.
There are basicly 3 different gear sets used in the transmission build from 1991 to 2000.
GT best one to build on. Strongest.
1.3L strong but not as strong as the GT
1.0L weakest of the three.

GT has a bigger differential, thicker ring and pinion gear, and a thicker 1st gear.
1.3L has the standard differential, standard ring gear, the GT pinion and the GT 1st gear.
1.0L has the standard differential standard ring and pinion gear, and the thinner 1st gear.

All of the cases are interchangeable.
All of the bearings are the same and interchangable.
All of the seals are the same and interchangable.
All of the brass syncro are interchangable.
All of the internal shift linkage is interchangable.
All of the clutch, flywheel, pressure plates, and through out bearing will work in all of the cases.
All of the clutch disks use the same spline diameter.

From left to right 1.0L, 1.3L, GT gear shaft and ring gear assemly
Left top under the bearing is the 1.0L pinion gear. notice it is shorter the the other two. (weakest pinion gear)
Middle shaft 1.3L has the larger pinion gear, and the GT also has the larger pinion gear.
Also notice the thickness difference between 1st gear. (2nd gear down on the shafts)
Attachment:
IMG_1948.JPG
IMG_1948.JPG [ 666.59 KIB | Viewed 5779 times ]


This picture is showing the thickness differences between the ring gears
1.0L/1.3L on the left and the GT ring gear on the right. The notches cut into the gear tips help quiet the gear noise down by using a cushion of oil between the gears.
Attachment:
IMG_1952.JPG
IMG_1952.JPG [ 474.64 KIB | Viewed 5779 times ]


Both of these cases have been up and running for over 100,000 miles.
The one on the left has been using moble-1 75/90w full synthetic gear oil.
THe one on the right was using chevrolet syncromesh gear oil.
Both of these transmission come from the cold country and have seen sub zero temperatures.
Attachment:
IMG_1979.JPG
IMG_1979.JPG [ 572.62 KIB | Viewed 5779 times ]


This picture is showing you the differences between the 1.0L and the 1.3L/GT 1st gear thickness.
Also the differences between the pinion of a 1.0L and a 1.3L/GT.
Attachment:
IMG_1998.JPG
IMG_1998.JPG [ 445.38 KIB | Viewed 5779 times ]


Because of the inherent issue of not being able to downshift into 1st gear until your almost at a complete stop,
I ruff up the part of the gear that the brass syncro rides on (called a forcing cone). This is one of the old school race car tricks I have learned along the way. All of my transmission builds get all of the forcing cones done this way.
I have built special holders for each gear. This allows me to blast the forcing cone without getting into the bearing race or the gear face. Blasting the bearing race will wear it out quickly. Blasting the gear face will make that gear noisy, and also wear it out.
Attachment:
IMG_2015.JPG
IMG_2015.JPG [ 590.85 KIB | Viewed 5779 times ]


Hope this helps. Feedback is welcome.

_________________
Fainya
97 Geo Metro LSI,1.3L-GT-DOHC-16v,4.10 5-speed,A/C,170,000,suspension lowered 1",4 wheel disk brakes,15"alloy wheels with 185/50-15 Toyo's,GT bucket seats,analog oil pressure gauge,cruise control, new paint job. 40 mpg at 65 mph.
Good, fast, cheap. You only get two.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:41 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:17 pm
Posts: 1403
Location: Alberta, Canada
First and foremost, this is a great thread, excellent information here. I came about repairing these transmissions out of necessity, as many members will. Did a swap to a 16v and wanted 4:10 ratio trans. 3 used trannies later(back to back, no second gear downshift on all of them!), and I decided to go in and see what goes on. Just thought I'd share my experience with them, ive been into maybe 50 now, with great results to this point.
First off, I have been doing trannies for stock, not performance oriented cars up to this point. Dattman, I actually think the slightly narrower second gear slots in the aftermarkted synchro are a very good thing. I have found that it can take an incredibly small amount of wear in the slots to prevent downshifting, so I install synchros with the shortest slots for this reason. Start small and there is more room for wear while retaining proper function. I have had fingertip shifting results on all I've done. Now that said, I think maybe the gt actually uses slightly different synchros(possibly slot sizes?) than the regular ones. I wonder if using the slightly smaller slots might affect high speed shifting? I haven't noticed it, bu haven't beaten on a repaired box very hard. Open to discussion on this one, fainya any thoughts?
Because I am normally building these boxes for stock cars(regular people, not enthusiasts mostly), I have had to come up with a cost effective solution(cheap, or they just land up giving up on the car). What I do lately: test drive, I think it's really important with standards to drive them first if at all possible. The reason for this is that all the engaging teeth and collars are showing wear at this point, and can't all be replaced, so you want to know all symptoms before going in. If its jumping out of first or second, you need to know this, same for 5th gear and downshifting(and all other gears, these are just what I see over and over). I fix 5th in the car if it's the only issue. For the second gear downshift, I pull it and install new first and second synchros, output seals and input seal. Thats it. I have found the 89-97 3 and 4cyl trannies to have such low bearing failure rates that I don't bother with the kits. Same for 3,4,5 synchros. Again this is after test driving to ensure its quiet and smooth, and I check all bearings while I'm in there. Having done so many, each with really nice smooth shifting after, I think for most stock applications this is all they need. I offer this with clutch replacement for around $250 extra, I land up fixing shifting and clutch for less than other repair shops clutch only quote. No comebacks so far, a couple of them at 100k kms or so since I did them(courier cars, so lots of shifting).
The 98+ 4 cyl cars do have beating issues I've found, and have done whole kits on those if caught in time. I'd have to guess they changed bearing suppliers at that point, due to the major increase in failures on newer, lower mileage gearboxes. Also of note is the different first gear on the 98+ 1.3 boxes (Canada/Us 98-01's, don't know about other locations). I noticed this one because the shaft doesn't fit in my press due to first gear diameter being to large to drop through!
I'm curious about the roughing up of the forcing cone, I've never done such a thing, and they have worked so well. No concerns of the rough surface eating up the softer brass synchro? I'm also a fairly firm believer in synchromesh, but only to stop gear clash, if it just won't shift down, there's no point in changing(worn slots in synchros won't respond to fluid change). That said on synchromesh, I've seen every fluid under the sun in these trannies, and a good one will work with any oil(seen ATF, 10w30, 80/90, synchromesh, 75/90 etc!). Moreso in the mk1's back in the day, I think the gm Manual wasn't clear on what to put in them or something.
I've also wondered about possible merits of increasing the full level on them, to protect 5th gear. 75/90 may also offer more protection, seems stickier than syncromesh. The only multiple failure I've had was a mail carrier who repeatedly melted 5th gears in a mk2 car. That car received a used trans after the first failure and took 5th gear out of it in no time. She bought a newer car after that, I think the heavy load somehow was really hard on 5th, but as I installed a used trans was hard to conclude on whether I just put a trans in with a weak 5th.
Done rambling, now that I have a turbo g13, I will be putting all the transmission repair experience to work on my own once they start blowing up!

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1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:18 am 
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Teamswift Racer
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Location: Christchurch NZ, quake capital
A couple of points, not to be nit picking but the gearset between a pre 97 1.3 sohc and a North American GT is exactly the same gearset, the crownwheel and diff aren't considered part of the gearset, that just perpetuates the myth that 'gt gears' are stronger than 'standard gears' when they are exactly the same, the extra strength is only in the diff hemisphere.

Generally (4.1's the exception) 4cyl crownwheels and pinions are wide, 3cyls are narrow.

3.52s only come in wide
4.389s only come in narrow
3.79s are narrow in XFI's and wide in 1.3 sohc models
4.1s come in both narrow and wide, gti and t3 are wide, 3 different pitch variations!
I've seen both narrow and wide 4.1's crownwheels in 4 cyl 1.3s while the 3 cyls only had narrow.

Remember all my experience is with Japanese trans, there is some market differences, particularly with the mk4 and 5 US models, not many other models had the super low 1st gear except for a few later model suzuki vans I think.

Cody, the keyslots are the same width on 2nd to 5th gears, they made 1st gear narrower for a reason, I'm not smart enough to work out the math, angle and timing of the engagement process ( I have my suspicions though) most boxes I rebuild these days are for racing or gti's which get beat on pretty badly so my perspective is different.

As for bearings and rings, the weight of the car and final drive seems to have a huge effect on what is required in a rebuild, boxes with 3.52's and 3.79s teend to be hard on bearings but easy on rings due to the lower shaft speeds, 4.1's and 4.389s often have good bearings but rings and hubs are quite often stuffed.

One thing with 5th gears that people often forget is the oiling tube on the inside of the black cover, the little drip tray needs to be clean and pushed down to encourage oil to flow onto the black cover, there is a passage that feeds the tube and this needs to blown out with compressed air, rebuilt boxes are terrible for excess sealant which gets trapped in this passage and blocks the flow of oil into the tube, everybody cleans out the galleries in the shafts but forget the black cover, over filling ever so slightly is not a bad thing provided your speedo drive cable has a good seal :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:49 am 
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Posts: 85
Location: Millsap, TX
JMHO---There are two kinds of 'oats' in the world. You can pay for the fresh ones right out of the mill in a brand new bag, or you can get the ones already through the horse.

fainya did my 91's 5 speed, and it shifts better than any standard I've driven. Including thirteen double overs in a Peterbuilt. Also, the Mobile 1 75W/90 is not really that much more pricey than any other stuff------so just go ahead and do it right and don't be a cheapskate. In the long run, going with a fainya built and advice is much more cost effective. Along with the others on TeamSwift that know what they are doing, don't turn down good knowledge or work.

I'm lazy, as I'd rather have it done right the first time and never have to worry/jack with it again.

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'91 Metro 3 cyl. 'vert. 5 speed beater, built as a fun daily driver.
'92 Metro 3 cyl. 'vert. Auto, all factory clean.
'92 Metro 3 cyl. 'vert. 5 speed beater back up.
'91 'vert with factory 160 hp 13B two rotor, Very clean RX-7.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:51 am 
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Posts: 720
Location: Texas 75150
Dattman,
One of those 5spd in the pictures was out of a 98 1.3L

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Fainya
97 Geo Metro LSI,1.3L-GT-DOHC-16v,4.10 5-speed,A/C,170,000,suspension lowered 1",4 wheel disk brakes,15"alloy wheels with 185/50-15 Toyo's,GT bucket seats,analog oil pressure gauge,cruise control, new paint job. 40 mpg at 65 mph.
Good, fast, cheap. You only get two.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:14 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:43 pm
Posts: 720
Location: Texas 75150
codyb76
I ruff up the forcing cones to improve the ability to downshift into 2nd and 1st gear. This works the best with the 75/90W moble-1 full synthetic gear oil. Ruffing the cones does not have any adverse affect on the life of the brass
syncros. It just makes them stick together better, IE: better downshifting into the lower gears.

If I have a transmission that jumps out of a gear I replace the gear and the engagement slider. The engaging parts of the slider and the gear will show signs of rounded off tips, and if it is really bad the engagement lugs will be badly worn too. This usually happens if the linkage bolts loosen up or someone has been really hard on that gear, On assembly Lots of locktite on those bolts.

5th gear is the weakest link in these transmissions. The last on the shaft. The last to get oil. Behind the end cover, the later gear boxes 98 on up, the factory has added holes towards the bottom to allow more oil to get into the 5th gear location. I should have taken pictures of it. But I don't see any harm in adding two 1/2" holes to help with oil circulation as the factory did with the later gear boxes.

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Fainya
97 Geo Metro LSI,1.3L-GT-DOHC-16v,4.10 5-speed,A/C,170,000,suspension lowered 1",4 wheel disk brakes,15"alloy wheels with 185/50-15 Toyo's,GT bucket seats,analog oil pressure gauge,cruise control, new paint job. 40 mpg at 65 mph.
Good, fast, cheap. You only get two.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:42 am 
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Posts: 48
Location: L.A. California
I am interested and checking this out. Lots to think about.

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1998 3/5, GR2 KYBs new mounts all around, Spring rubber spacers for that nice handling and rally look, MB x 7 wheels, Drilled and Slotted front discs, ceramic pads, New Lower control arms, New inner outer tie rods, Urethane bushings and zerk fittings, Urethane sway bar endlinks and bushings. new half shafts, New front bearings, Dark tinted windows, New 2 core radiator, 195 thermostat, Push button start. Silicone hoses (blue) installed CS 130 (105 amp) alternator conversion.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:05 am 
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Suzuki Elder
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Posts: 11669
Location: columbus, ohio
for me, it was a "no brainer." i choose my battles when it comes to project work and when i can avail myself of someone else's expertise on any given phase of that project work, it makes dollars and "sense" to have some work done by the expert.

fainya built a transmission for me that is an absolute work of art. i have no problem recommending him for transmission and distributor rebuilds. his work is superior to and cheaper than anything available to me locally - and i live in a pretty big city with a lot of resources for this type of work. even with shipping, i got a better job done, cheaper, than i could get at a local transmission shop.

you want something like this done perfectly the first time. it's a job of work to haul a transmission back out because a shop screwed up the rebuild. fainya gets it right the first time. :wink:

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1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:46 am 
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Do you take mail order work?

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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Posts: 254
Location: Kitchener, ON
fainya wrote:
1st and 2nd gear syncros need to have the forcing cones on the gears ruffed back up.
...
Now if you do it this way, you don't have to run that crappy syncromesh GM trans fluid. You can run Mobil One 75/90

'Roughing' the blocking cones should only be beneficial if they are dirty and need cleaning. New cones are not rough, they are ground to a bearing finish and the friction is from material interaction (steel/brass) and not from texture. A non-smooth, rough surface should increase wear on the brass blocking rings and thus shorten their life and lifetime performance.

The blocking cones should be clean , true and concentric, not rough.

Now, onto fluids. Synchromesh is not a crappy fluid, it is a modern, high-performing fluid formula. Unless you are running significantly more torque and/or your fluid temperature is getting out of hand, then Sychromesh IS your best option. I would actually recommend Red Line MTL or Amsoil MTF but all three of these fluids (and several others) are designed for brass compatibility (non-corrosive) unlike the GL-5 fluids like Mobil1 75w90.

It not just the corrosion found in many 75w90 fluids that you need to be concerned about, but the reduced synchro performance. The steel/brass friction is important and a GL-5 fluid will interfere with that.

If you actually need a heavier fluid than the typical synchromesh then try Red Line MT-85, MT-90 or Amsoil MTG. Most transmission wear is from contaminated fluid or inappropriate fluid and 'Synchromesh' is really what you want for best performance (shifting & wear). I would not recommend the heavier fluids for year-round use. MTL is about as heavy as I would accept. A 75w90 GL-5 should NOT be used unless it is specifically formulated for brass-friction performance (not just compatibility).

http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=7
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/t ... id/manual/

Some essential reading:
http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... 750&page=3


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:30 pm 
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Suzuki Elder
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
Posts: 11669
Location: columbus, ohio
the specially prepared transmission that fainya built for me running the mobil1 synthetic 75/90 gear oil is working great for me.

as i have gained more confidence in the complete twincam make over on my red vert, i have increasingly begun to push it harder.

no complaints from me on the rebuild or the gear lube.

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:11 pm 
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Teamswift Racer
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Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 5:56 am
Posts: 2328
Location: Christchurch NZ, quake capital
martinq wrote:
fainya wrote:
1st and 2nd gear syncros need to have the forcing cones on the gears ruffed back up.
...
Now if you do it this way, you don't have to run that crappy syncromesh GM trans fluid. You can run Mobil One 75/90

'Roughing' the blocking cones should only be beneficial if they are dirty and need cleaning. New cones are not rough, they are ground to a bearing finish and the friction is from material interaction (steel/brass) and not from texture. A non-smooth, rough surface should increase wear on the brass blocking rings and thus shorten their life and lifetime performance.

The blocking cones should be clean , true and concentric, not rough.

Now, onto fluids. Synchromesh is not a crappy fluid, it is a modern, high-performing fluid formula. Unless you are running significantly more torque and/or your fluid temperature is getting out of hand, then Sychromesh IS your best option. I would actually recommend Red Line MTL or Amsoil MTF but all three of these fluids (and several others) are designed for brass compatibility (non-corrosive) unlike the GL-5 fluids like Mobil1 75w90.

It not just the corrosion found in many 75w90 fluids that you need to be concerned about, but the reduced synchro performance. The steel/brass friction is important and a GL-5 fluid will interfere with that.

If you actually need a heavier fluid than the typical synchromesh then try Red Line MT-85, MT-90 or Amsoil MTG. Most transmission wear is from contaminated fluid or inappropriate fluid and 'Synchromesh' is really what you want for best performance (shifting & wear). I would not recommend the heavier fluids for year-round use. MTL is about as heavy as I would accept. A 75w90 GL-5 should NOT be used unless it is specifically formulated for brass-friction performance (not just compatibility).

http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=7
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/t ... id/manual/

Some essential reading:
http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... 750&page=3


:goodpost:


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Make love, not moderators
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Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:26 pm
Posts: 1930
Location: Etobicoke, Ontario
This is a very interesting discussion.. Learned quite a bit on this one..

Just throwing in my 2 cents on this one though.

I would recommend people just use whatever the factory recommends. I know several people and all of them used a synthetic or some fancy expensive additive in their manual trans, and each and everyone of them needed a new transmission shortly there after. I don't know why since so many people swear by synthetic but in the end I think the factory engineers know best and put the appropriate fluid in there.

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"Don't argue with stupid people. They just bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience."


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 Post subject: Re: 5 speed builds
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:27 pm 
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Suzuki Elder
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:47 pm
Posts: 11669
Location: columbus, ohio
i have just over 900 miles on my fainya rebuilt transmission with zero issues.

it shifts nicely and runs silently. i've done several launches that were way more aggressive than usual and it tickles me to hear both front tires squeal.

the mobil1 synthetic 75/90 hasn't been an issue and while driving for effect, i'm still getting 34 mpg.

_________________
1991 Blue Geo Metro Convertible highly modified 1.0L Turbo3 5 spd. - 1991 Red Geo Metro Convertible customized with a Twincam 5 spd.

My Turbo3 Project
My Cardomain Page -Ol' Blue
My YouTube Channel
My Photo Gallery
SAAB Sonett II


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