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Lowest gearing on a budget for off road
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=55903
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Author:  Joyner [ Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

I'm hoping you can help. Been reading this forum a bunch lately and can't get everything figured out. I'm working on putting a Geo 1.0 NA engine in my Joyner dune buggy. I should be a 20hp increase over the stock 650cc engine. It' been done before and apparently fits well in a buggy. Anyway the problem and where I need help is gearing it's the Biggest complaint I have heard about the swap. I run 25" ATV tires which are a little larger than 13" Swift/metro tires. So what can I do to get the lowest gearing possible. I know so far I can get a 4.4 FD from a 95+ metro. Based on my calculations that is high for off road. Would like to be a lot lower but what can be done? What are my options? Anyone got some cool ideas?

Also I will probably weld up the spiders, it has a locked rear now, but it doesn't turn very well. Pushes bad with the rear engine, locked axle and big tires. A torsen LSD is way out of the budget, would a phantom work well in the mud & snow?

Author:  Prairie to Pine Co. [ Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

You might start out, by checking out the gear ratio of the 1000cc 4cly. powered pre-samurai Suzuki sj410. made in the early 80's, very uncommon in North America. With similar cubes and slightly less HP. It may send you in the right direction. Good luck with the project, Jonathan

P.S. The final drive ratio for a new 1.3 DOHC Jimny is 5.151 to 1 and might be obtainable through a Suzuki parts Dept. for off road use. Ive seen some obscure things listed from an authorized parts dept.

Author:  airwerks [ Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

SJ410 / Samurai stuff is the opposite of what he wants. He's looking for a FWD transmission.

OP, yes, 4.4 is the lowest you can go on a budget for a final drive. Every once in a while lower (custom) gearsets pop up on here for sale.... but it's kind of a crap shoot for when you'll see another set.

PS, search on here for phantom grip. Not the best option, I'd much rather weld the spiders than run one. They have metal to metal contact surfaces and are quick to wear out. I'd imagine that would only be expedited with larger tires and off road usage. There is a guy in the classifieds right now selling limited slips for approx $800 us.

Author:  hotrodray1 [ Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

Look through the post here under for sale I think there was a guy on here not long a go with a lower gear set for sale.

Author:  aqqus [ Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

One thing I have seen is a chain drive final reduction at the wheel ends. All you would need is a couple sets of bearings and sprockets. You could set up any final reduction you want. By changing your sprocket combinations and multiplying that with your tranny final ratio you can get some wicked low final reduction. How low do you want?

Carry an extra chain with you incase one breaks. But I wouldn't weld the diff if you do the chain drive though. Too much stress on the chains.

Author:  Dattman [ Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=54595

Email the guy, it's a side project for him and his mate, extremely good pricing and will do up to 5.4

Mile high racing bought one, pm him for his opinion.

Author:  Joyner [ Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

Thanks everyone. Yes, I do want a FWD set up, put in the rear of the buggy. A Shaft broke in the FD so it's fix or upgrade. It's nice to know I have an options for gearing up to a 5.4 FD ratio. Price seems reasonable too. I think I'm going to go with a 4.4 FD to start. Get it driveable and see what it's like. Probably not weld it up at first either. I think it will be fine in the summer and handle much better, but winter is the ??? If I'm stuck in my 1 wheel wonder all the time it's really not any fun.

Praire to Pine is that your metro/swift parts on brainerd craigslist? The buggy is at my family cabin, near BIR.

Author:  Prairie to Pine Co. [ Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

No, Just posted for sale here on Teamswift. I don't, Have the time or energy to do a real complete strip of the cars. I Do this as as a hobby and a service to the greater TS community. Not as a source of fundage. I'm pretty much just trying to get my( or one of my employees ) time expense out of it.
Stop by on your way up sometime and introduce yourself, My Casa, Your Casa. :) I do have a fully furnished repair shop. Jonathan


P.s. The 1995 metro is being straight traded to another metro Nut in Little Falls for a 1991 2dr LSI 1.0 5sp rustbucket.

Author:  Joyner [ Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

So I read some more.

The cheapest/best option to start is a 1.0 engine/ transmission from a 95+ metro because the FD is 4.4.

FYI: I have been told the 4 cyl don't fit well and require much more work to install.

The transaxle from a GTI has higher ratio gears 3-5 (lower gearing), but higher FD gear (lower number). The FD could be swapped out to a 4.4 or other custom ratio?

Does the GTI trans bolt up to a 1.0 3 cyl? How much more would you pay for a GTI trans? A lot, if so I'm better of spending $ on custom lower FD (5.4)?????

Author:  airwerks [ Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

Joyner wrote:
So I read some more.

The cheapest/best option to start is a 1.0 engine/ transmission from a 95+ metro because the FD is 4.4. Not just those transmissions have the 4.4, there are others too. Convertibles IIRC, etc.

The transaxle from a GTI has higher ratio gears 3-5 (lower gearing), but higher FD gear (lower number). That is only for overseas models... any GT/GTi transmissions you will find in North America will have the same 3/4/5 ratios as a non GT transmission. The FD could be swapped out to a 4.4 or other custom ratio? Not without changing both the crown and mainshaft. To change the final drive you have to change both the crown wheel and the mainshaft.

Does the GTI trans bolt up to a 1.0 3 cyl? How much more would you pay for a GTI trans? A lot, if so I'm better of spending $ on custom lower FD (5.4)????? If it were my toy, I would pay the $40 or $50 for a 4.4 CWP and see if I liked it before spending more money. These trannies come apart easy.

Author:  t3 ragtop [ Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

thanks for taking the time to respond. :goodpost:

Author:  Joyner [ Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

Yes thanks Lot to learn and I'm starting from zero on the metro/swift stuff.

I'll post some pics if/when I get started.

Author:  Dattman [ Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

t3 ragtop wrote:
thanks for taking the time to respond. :goodpost:


I agree, nicely constructed answer, although if you find any 4.4's for $40 or $50 then hook me up as I am paying a lot more than that :ez_eek:

Author:  Joyner [ Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

Before my buggy broke I saw a complete running 97 metro 1.0 with rusty frame for $300 USD for sale locally. Kicking myself now for not buying it. :( Lots of metro's in the us, so parts are cheap! I'm sure shipping to NZ would cost way more than what parts cost here.

Author:  airwerks [ Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

I've bought / sold 3 sets in the last year or 2, all in that price range. Maybe I should have asked more!

Author:  Dattman [ Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

Best postage option from the States is is the $60 flat rate but you can fit two cwp's in, I have bought a few 4.4s but every time I get one my mates jump on my case and they seem to end up in their project/race cars. :lol:

Author:  Joyner [ Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

Prairie to Pine Co. wrote:
No, Just posted for sale here on Teamswift. I don't, Have the time or energy to do a real complete strip of the cars. I Do this as as a hobby and a service to the greater TS community. Not as a source of fundage. I'm pretty much just trying to get my( or one of my employees ) time expense out of it.
Stop by on your way up sometime and introduce yourself, My Casa, Your Casa. :) I do have a fully furnished repair shop. Jonathan


P.s. The 1995 metro is being straight traded to another metro Nut in Little Falls for a 1991 2dr LSI 1.0 5sp rustbucket.



If you have one or when you get a 1.0 and a 4.4 final drive trans I'll stop by. Thanks for the offer. Started taking the old engine out, so I'll be ready for new engine soon.

FYI: I prefer it complete. Engine/trans ready to hook up a battery/fuel and run. I need the axles too.

Author:  Prairie to Pine Co. [ Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

stop by: I have a complete, running, driving 1.0 5speed 1995 metro, with Rusted out frame, If you can return the Cat, and the tires and wheels I'll sell it for $300.00 Plus fees, If you let me Write "Junked" on the title, The fees are waived. The motor runs great, in the trans, all gears work, but there is a "Grunt" between the middle shifts, and it has to be double clutched to down-shift to second, so some attention is needed in the gear box. (Sychro's ??) Question's PM Me, Jonathan

Author:  Joyner [ Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

Pic of what I'm fixing. If I can get it uploaded :thwack:

Suceess! Been a fun machine and taken a good amount of abuse the last 5 years. Especially for a chinese made toy!

The kids are really missing going for rides so hopefully with Prairie to Pines help it can come back better then ever!

Attachments:
File comment: joyner buggy
joynerbuggypic(640x480).jpg
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Author:  airwerks [ Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

That looks like a blast, and I bet it would go like a stabbed rat with a G10 in it......

Author:  Joyner [ Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

Some of my buddies laugh when I tell them that I'm going to swap motors from a Geo metro to get more HP. Ignorant bastards!

What they don't know:

Currently a 650cc twin engine making 28hp. 1.0 l g10 making 55hp in a approx. 1,000lbs vehicle, yea it should go! :twisted:

The g10 is lighter than the motor I'm replacing I have been told, too. Aluminum vs iron thing I'm guessing. Might be too fast for it's own good. I may have to figure out a rev limiter or something to protect my inlaws and buddies from getting hurt. :lol:

Author:  airwerks [ Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

It's amazing how many "car guys" don't get power to weight at all.......

Author:  t3 ragtop [ Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

airwerks wrote:
It's amazing how many "car guys" don't get power to weight at all.......


those are the guys who slept through high school physics. :-P

Author:  aqqus [ Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

I took a worn out 250 cc single cylinder out of a Honda odyssey and replaced it with a 400 cc two cylinder out of a Honda hawk motorcycle. Oh shit was that scary!!!

Author:  Joyner [ Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowest gearing on a budget for off road

It's finally done. I'll post a pic when I get a better one of the engine. Runs absolutely great. Motor sounds good, idles smooth etc. I don't know what HP it's putting out but I did weigh it at all 4 corners and it's only 776# total without a driver. So figure 1000# and 55hp. It gets up and moves. :D Also it as a motorcycle supertrap muffler and sounds sweet! I'm going to drive it as is for a while and enjoy it.

However I have a list of to-do's starting: I think the manual is going to need a rebuild at some point. Shifting down into 2 and 1 is hard. (no surprise) I want to snorkle the intake with a pre-filter to prevent water, mud and snow from getting to the air filter. The tires throw that stuff all over everything including passengers. The gearing is okay but lower would be better, don't use 4 or 5th unless I'm cruising down the road. Lots of time in 1st and 2nd on the trails. (25" tall tires) So far I don't feel a LSD is needed but that might change in the winter. Since a LSD is expensive and a bit of a hassle I'm going to stud a second set of tires for winter use first.

I would like to say a big thank you to everyone on this site who helped. It's been a very useful source of info and knowledge.

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