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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 11:58 am 
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This is some information components and possible modifications I have gathered about turbocharging. Feel free to add any other info or experiences.


Assuming you already have a turbo or Turbine Tech kit, here are some other items that will help with tuning your converted G10 turbo.

Components:

-A/F Ratio Gauge. (Air/Fuel Ratio) Very import to have when tuning or increasing boost. One from Summit Racing is $28 p/n: SUM-G2986. You can also make your own. Check out http://www.scirocco.org/tech/misc/afgauge/af.html This ties into your oxygen sensor and tells you where your fuel mixture is. Usually you want to be safe an make sure all 10 lights are lit during boost. On some cars it is still safe to have only 9 lights lit. Eight lights usually means you are too lean and it's time to add fuel. Makes it much easier than constantly trying to read your spark plugs.

-4 wire O2 sensor. I have not tried this but I have seen turbo Dodge guys convert to it. The standard single wire O2 uses the threads to ground the sensor. That connection might give enough of a voltage drop to not illuminate the 10th light on the A/F ratio gauge causing a false lean reading. The 4-wire uses a separate ground wire for the sensor eliminating the voltage drop. It also has a heating element but I plan on trying to use the sensor with out the heater hooked up.

UPDATE 6/13/05: I have recently converted to the universal 4-wire O2 on my N/A G10. I purchased the new O2 on E-bay for $25. Thanks to Crvett69 and Knuckles for helping me figure out the wiring. The wiring is as follows:
Black- sensor wire to ECU
Grey- Ground (to battery terminal)
White- Ground for heating element
White(2)- Power for heating element.
Hooking up the heating element (optional):
The 2 white wires are for the heating element. They are not polarity specific. I grounded one of the whites to the battery and the other is connected to the fuse box to a "ignition only" +12V.
So far my A/F gauge reads normal and more accurate. I can get the 10th LED to come on nice and bright where as befere, with the single wire O2, would only flicker.

-EGT gauge. (Exhaust Gas Temperature) Best when used with A/F ratio gauge. It will keep you from melting pistons.

-Boost gauge. How else are you going to know how much boost you are making.

-Boost controller. Usually can be purchased from the aftermarket. These can also be made by modifying a brass valve from a Grainger catalog. http://www.xmission.com/~dempsey/perform/grainger.htm

-BOV. (Blow Off Valve) These are good to have for keeping boost pressure from trying to slow down the turbine blade of the turbo after the throttle blades snap shut. The most popular factory BOV is from a 1st Generation Eagle Talon, or Mitsubishi Eclipse (DSM's). There are also plenty available from the aftermarket. A good place to install it is between the throttle body and intercooler if equipped.

TBI Pressure Hat. This is needed for the TBI cars. You need a way of getting the boost into the engine. Usually called a pressure hat or bonnet, it mounts to the top of the TBI where the air cleaner was and the outlet of the turbo is piped to it. Look here for more info http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?p=121234#121234

Other modifications:

-CTS mod (Coolant Temp Sensor) This is a very popular one. It tricks the ECU into thinking the engine is cold and therefore delivers more fuel to the engine. The more boost you run the more fuel is going to be needed. Using this mod along with watching your A/F ratio gauge makes tuning much easier. This should be used in conjunction with a Hobbs adjustable pressure switch. This way the car drives normal with the CTS and when boost is introduced it will use the potentiometer to add more fuel.
http://www.teamswift.net/kb.php?mode=article&k=3

-MAP sensor mod (Manifold Absolute Pressure) This is basically a vacuum sensor to tell your car’s ECU what kind of load it is under and how much fuel and timing to give it. This sensor on a N/A car only measure engine vacuum. It does not like to see boost. You can fool it by teeing into the vacuum hose with a one way check valve. This allows boost to bleed before the sensor and closes when there is vacuum so the sensor can read normally.

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M3----"M" body "3" cylinders.
Now Turbo'd

"M3 like the BMW?"
"No, like the Gillette razor."


Last edited by M3 on Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 12:11 pm 
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one additional item would be sending the Head to 3Tech for a work over and custom Cam

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 1:27 pm 
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From what I can tell, the Summit Racing gauge is actually just a rebranded CyberDyne one. You can order the "summit racing" gauge as a cyberdyne through your local Canadian Tire for $45cdn (including tax), and not have to worry about shipping and such.

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 3:20 pm 
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So, about the boost controller with the grainer valve, thats not really any good if your wastegate would open up at like 10psi, and you want it to max out at 5, right?

If this is true, then I have to modify my wastegate to open sooner. I want to make sure I'm understanding this. Would i simply lengthen the actuartor rod to lower boost? If so, approx how much are we talking here? Like one cm would possible open it 1psi sooner or what? that was just an example of the answer im looking for.


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 3:39 pm 
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RotaryGreg wrote:
So, about the boost controller with the grainer valve, thats not really any good if your wastegate would open up at like 10psi, and you want it to max out at 5, right?

If this is true, then I have to modify my wastegate to open sooner. I want to make sure I'm understanding this. Would i simply lengthen the actuartor rod to lower boost? If so, approx how much are we talking here? Like one cm would possible open it 1psi sooner or what? that was just an example of the answer im looking for.


The grainger valve is if you want to increase boost only.

The way I always understood it was lengthening the lever arm of the waste gate lowers your boost. I don't know of any "rule of thumb" as to how much to lengthen the lever to a achieve a certain boost. All turbo waste gate lever arms are different in shape. You would just have to adjust the arm and drive it until you achieved your desired boost.

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M3----"M" body "3" cylinders.
Now Turbo'd

"M3 like the BMW?"
"No, like the Gillette razor."


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 4:05 pm 
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that sux. cause the arm is not adjustable. I dont know if i wanna make it adjustable either...its gonna be alot of experimenting in the end i guess. Are waste gates pretty much universal? Like, could i grab a wastegate from some other turbo that has an adjustable one?


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 4:15 pm 
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RotaryGreg wrote:
that sux. cause the arm is not adjustable. I dont know if i wanna make it adjustable either...its gonna be alot of experimenting in the end i guess. Are waste gates pretty much universal? Like, could i grab a wastegate from some other turbo that has an adjustable one?


Internal waste gates are not universal. Some choices you have are to cut the middle of the arm and thread the ends and use a long nut to make it adjustable. There is also the option of an external waste gate. External waste gates require special manifolds to mount the waste gate and more pipe fabrication, but are adjustable with different springs.

What is your waste gate set to?

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M3----"M" body "3" cylinders.
Now Turbo'd

"M3 like the BMW?"
"No, like the Gillette razor."


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 4:26 pm 
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Sometimes you can shim the actuator where it bolts to the turbo. That will do the same as lengthening the arm.

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 4:30 pm 
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M3 wrote:
Internal waste gates are not universal. Some choices you have are to cut the middle of the arm and thread the ends and use a long nut to make it adjustable. There is also the option of an external waste gate. External waste gates require special manifolds to mount the waste gate and more pipe fabrication, but are adjustable with different springs.

What is your waste gate set to?


I dont actually know. Whatever stock is for an '85ish 200SX CA18ET. the turbo is a Garrett t20, if that helps. Actually, would anyone know what the wastegate is set to for this? or know anywhere that i might find that out? I dont want to go the external wastegate rout. It seems to be a pain in the butt, especially for such little boost. Worst case scenario, i can just cut it and use the long nut and lock nuts to adjust it.


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 4:31 pm 
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suprf1y wrote:
Sometimes you can shim the actuator where it bolts to the turbo. That will do the same as lengthening the arm.


whoa! never thought of that! That sounds way easier than making the actuator rod adjustable.


EDIT: Okay, so i just spent like the last 30 mins wading through the crap that is the internet in search of the stock boost pressure of this turbo. It seems that the waste gate is said to be set around 5 or 6 psi (0.4-0.5 bar) or in that neighborhood. so, if this true, i guess i wont have to worry about adjusting it really. I would still like to know if anyone can confirm this. I know there are a few of you who really know alot about turbos.

Once again, it is a garrett t20 from a 1984ish 200SX with a CA18ET. If anyone could verify, or get me a link to where i could verify, the stock max boost pressure it would be much appreciated. thank you.


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 6:14 pm 
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You worry to much for nothing. Have the turbo installed up and running. A boost gauge will tell you how much boost ot make. Adjustable wastegates actuators can be sourced for around $30-$40 on E-Bay.

Jess


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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 6:46 pm 
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I just like to have everything i need right there by my side when i start a project. I can't get to work without my car, and without work i cant afford my car,you see? So if i am completely prepared when i start the project, i can get it completed in a weekend, and then im still ready for work on monday.

Oh, also, shims arent a possibility for lowering boost on this turbo, however it would be able to raise the boost as you are only able to shorten the actuator rod with shims where the waste gate bolts to the turbo and not lengthen it. Jadamuth, I was a little worried because i didnt know how much boost the turbo would be doing. I didnt want to fire it up and instantly have 10 or 12 psi rammed down this little engines throught. But now that i know it's around 5-7 psi, its not really an issue i guess.


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 8:25 am 
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I thought I would add some links about DIY water/alcohol injection for turbo applications.

http://www.dawesdevices.com/water.html

http://www.turbomirage.com/water3.html

http://members.cox.net/stevemonroe/AlcoholInjMod.html

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M3----"M" body "3" cylinders.
Now Turbo'd

"M3 like the BMW?"
"No, like the Gillette razor."


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 9:41 am 
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Some ideas from another thread:

Lihtan wrote:
Autospeed has a set of articles for using an industrial pressure regulator to control boost, and a pressure relief valve for preventing boost creep:
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0670
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_0685/printArticle.html

For those handy with a soldering iron, here's a bunch of different boost controller, fuel enrichment and engine shutdown circuits that might be useful:
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/perf/eepc.html

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:13 pm 
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M3 wrote:
I thought I would add some links about DIY water/alcohol injection for turbo applications.

http://www.dawesdevices.com/water.html

http://www.turbomirage.com/water3.html

http://members.cox.net/stevemonroe/AlcoholInjMod.html



I HIGHLY second this. I gained 15 whp from water injection alone on my 2.4L turbocharged car.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:06 pm 
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I updated my original post with more info about converting to a 4-wire O2 sensor.

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M3----"M" body "3" cylinders.
Now Turbo'd

"M3 like the BMW?"
"No, like the Gillette razor."


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:02 pm 
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please post somthing on chousing a turbo. becuse i am dooing the same set up with a Alcohal injuction just cant pick a turbo i want to run like 20 psi just let me know what you think. what one you useing M3

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:44 am 
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Finding the right turbo for the G10 N/A can be a difficult feat. Basically the smaller the better. Too big of a turbo won't spool until a really high RPM if it is going to build any boost at all.

The Canadian Firefly G10 Turbos came with an IHI RHB32. This turbo is very small and difficult to find. It was only offered on the 86-88 Chevy Sprint Turbo's here in the US, as far as I know.

http://www.turbinetech.ca (Jardamuth), sells an upgrade for the Firefly that is a Mitsubishi (?) TC04 9b, according to his website.

I have heard that one turbo from a twin turbo Dodge Stealth or Mitsubishi 3000 GT Twin Turbo will also work.

A lot of people mention the Mitsubishi TE04H from a 2.5L T1 Chrysler. I don't beleive this turbo will work on our 1.0L. Even though it does have a small turbine housing, I still feel this is too big for our application.

I heard the turbo from a newer VW Golf GTI 1.8T is a small turbo also, but I have not looked up any information on it yet.

Extremerider on this site has installed a Garrett GT17 on his TBI G10 and has sucessfully boosted it to 15 psi.

I personally have a IHI RHB5 that did not come off of any production car. It has a small compressor and I was told by Jardamuth to expect it to spool after 2200 RPM.

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M3----"M" body "3" cylinders.
Now Turbo'd

"M3 like the BMW?"
"No, like the Gillette razor."


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:46 am 
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Updated original post with info about pressure hats.

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M3----"M" body "3" cylinders.
Now Turbo'd

"M3 like the BMW?"
"No, like the Gillette razor."


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:56 am 
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I just wanted to add that I recently found a screaming deal on boost gauges. $41.99cdn plus $10cdn shipping (so about $55cd with tax) for a vacumm gauge/20psi boost gauge in 1 psi increments. Couple that with the cyberdyne A/F gauge and you have cheap but good gauges. Part #21601B (replace B with S for silver outer rim).

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GeoZukiGTi wrote:
This makes me wanna hurt someone, really bad. Where's Hitempguy, he's expendable
CJDavE wrote:
You have a girlfriend? :shock:

HiTemp Inc. ....... taking over the world one Sprint Turbo and Swift GTi at a time.

Chassis Flex Motorsports


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:48 am 
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And we buy it where? :-P


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:58 am 
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Your good ol' local Canadian Tire :D You need to special order it through KeyStone though, so it takes 7 business days.

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GeoZukiGTi wrote:
This makes me wanna hurt someone, really bad. Where's Hitempguy, he's expendable
CJDavE wrote:
You have a girlfriend? :shock:

HiTemp Inc. ....... taking over the world one Sprint Turbo and Swift GTi at a time.

Chassis Flex Motorsports


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:46 am 
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M3 wrote:
Finding the right turbo for the G10 N/A can be a difficult feat. Basically the smaller the better. Too big of a turbo won't spool until a really high RPM if it is going to build any boost at all.



http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=15765

This will also help you in finding Turbos that May or May not work. It is just a guide after all.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:39 pm 
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Bump For great info


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