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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2003 3:01 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2001 11:55 am
Posts: 2595
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Not everything that people say on this site is accurate unfortunately. As with anything. I myself have made mistakes in the past and usually admit them. It is mostly impossible to know everything, although we do strive for that.
This in reality should be a sticky topic as it comes up time and time again. I will do my best to explain it here and then post it seperately later in the general performance section thread. This is truly a lengthy discussion as the area of our ECUs is a particularly huge area of misconception.

I only know one person with years of experience modifying ECU programs and my ideas are based from his teachings to me as well as my own research applicable to our vehicles. This person is a professional tuner who has seen my car and several of these programs I mentioned, and has many well known accomplishments under his belt. As far as I'm concerned, he has proven to know more on this subject than others I have known.

Task at hand- first off, our ECUs operate on two fixed 16x16 3 dimensional tables for fuel, and two fixed 16x16 3D tables for timing. One map is essentially for the o2 sensor/wts while the engine is cold. The other for when it is warm. I will only focus on one map. Namely because at WOT or start-up the ECU is on the richer map with more timing. Also, the rally chip out there rids the need for the o2 sensor as it zeros out the 'closed loop' fuel and timing maps to only operate on the open loop map. The open loop map is richer, and has more timing.

What are these 'maps' and how does the ECU move through them?

The maps are just the previously mentioned 16x16 tables. They are fixed tables on our ecus, if they were not, it would make the eeprom tuning process a lot more complicated than it is (as some vehicles are). Basically from left to right horizontal it is based on "rpm" points, from top to bottom it is based on "load" points. The numbers contained within the tables DO NOT CHANGE. Where it is on the MAP will be affected obviously by current engine speed/rpm (Crank Angle Sensor) and load (Throttle Position Sensor and 'Air Flow Meter').

The main concern is at what point and how it moves through these tables. As mentioned this is based solely on sensor input. It will not adapt from what it sees from the sensors and tell it to move to a more advanced 'load' point. On our ECUs it will always be based on what it is receiving real-time from the sensors.

Lets say that 3 horizontal is around your idle rpm (taken from CAS). At this point it is likely to see a very low load condition as your throttle plate will be mostly closed at idle and the TPS will see that, on top of that the AFM will not see a lot of air flow so let's say that it will only be at a load point also around 2 or 3 on your map. However this number is vertical.

Your ECU goes to 3x3 and takes the fuel reading and the timing reading at 3x3.

Now lets say you are in 3rd gear and 800rpms and you go WOT. It will still only be at 3 horizontal, but due to what it is seeing from the TPS and AFM it will move vertically down a few notches to a higher load setting. New spot it is reading from in the table is 3x5. More fuel for the increased air flow and possibly more timing.

As it goes up the rpm band it will increase in this fashion. And at each new spot there is likely a different fuel/timing number to correspond. 4x5, 5x6, 6x6, 7x7, 8x7, 9x7,10x8,11x10, 12x11...etc. 16x12....etc. (If the chart below works out... not exact to my numbers that I pulled out of my a--, it should give a general idea of how it would follow up through the rpms).

A stock GTi will not be maxed out on the load table in the middle rpm range (not near) and it will likely not be on the 16x16 table at the end of the rpm range. This is because the MAF sensor is likely not maxed out as teh stock engine will not be drawing in enough air.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
2 - - - - - - - - - - -- -- -- -- -- -- --
3 - - - - - - - - - - -- -- -- -- -- -- --
4 - - - - - - - - - - -- -- -- -- -- -- --
5 - - - - - - - - - - -- -- -- -- -- -- --
6 - - - - - - - - - - -- -- -- -- -- -- --
7 - - - - - - - - - - -- -- -- -- -- -- --
8 - - - - - - - - - - -- -- -- -- -- -- --
9 - - - - - - - - - - -- -- -- -- -- -- --
10 - - - - - - - - - - -- -- -- -- -- -- --
11 - - - - - - - - - - -- -- -- -- -- -- --
12 - - - - - - - - - - -- -- -- -- -- -- --
13 - - - - - - - - - - -- -- -- -- -- -- --
14 - - - - - - - - - - -- -- -- -- -- -- --
15 - - - - - - - - - - -- -- -- -- -- -- --
16 - - - - - - - - - - -- -- -- -- -- -- --

The ECU is likely seeing blocks of information at a time, it is not as concise as 4x4, 5x5...etc... Also the way which the ECU traces in the above example may be backwards as it varies from ecu to ecu (left to right, right to left... etc). It is just used to illustrate my point. It's been too long since I've seen the ECU on the tracer... posting the exact way it traces is not relevant to this discussion anyway.

------------

All that said... there is no knock sensor on the Swift ecu to detect engine detonation and retard timing or change fuel settings to correspond.

Also, in case of this question...


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Do you mean to tell me that a CAI (if they made one) would not produce any gains at all because the maps are set so they don't need cold air??
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The only thing that detects air temperature on the Swift is in the Air Flow Meter. There is a 'cold' wire and a 'hot' wire in the GTi AFM (hotwire AFM). The cold wires job is to detect temperature change so that it keeps the current going through the hot-wire constant. The signal that the ECU sees is based on the 'hot' wire, not the cold wire. It keeps the current constant in the hot-wire so that it is not affected by the cold air and can judge the actual 'air flow' accordingly and not send erroneous readings to your ECU in cold weather.

So, in theory, the reference point on the load map should not change until it physically sees more air flow (+ TPS). The only real benefit to the cold air intake is removing piping losses at high-way speeds, and the denser air that will enter into the intake charge. Not how it is going to affect the ECU. If it does not alter the signal of the AFM and you are now getting in colder and denser air, you could actually be running leaner with this mod at WOT... assuming theory works out to reality. Also somewhat strange is on the fuel economy side of things. When you do not want the extra air flow on highway cruise, you will have more air flow being pushed accross the sensor on the highway at the same rpm point. Higher load setting for the same rpm point = not good for gas mileage. I seem to recall getting bad gas mileage with the CAI I had long ago.


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Isn't it true that all fuel management systems, ecu's Are able to "learn" and contstantly change their maps to suit your driving conditions?
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Not in the way you are thinking. In cases of our simple ECU, they see what the sensors see and correspond that to a load/rpm point on your timing/fuel map and give you what you get. Unfortunately (yes unfortunately) Suzuki did not give us a lot of the fail-safes that other vehicles got with the knock sensors/air temps.



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It said not to use anything lower than 95 , and claims incredable gains. What do you think?
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If you experience knock, use better fuel. If you don't, I would not worry about it. The gains in driveability are incredible from what I've witnessed first hand. Our sensors seem to be in battle for control at times... the rally chip eliminates that battle and that alone is worth it.


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Also will it put more stress on my engine by reseting maps too higher numbers?? Will this chip shorten the lifespan of my moter??
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Some improperly tuned chips will indeed shorten the life span of your motor. However, some chips will actually extend the life span of your motor by not sacrificing with lean mixtures meant for good gas mileage like in some stock ECUs programs. If proper rules are followed for timing advance, and your air/fuel is richer than stock you could actually be safer than using a stock program. As for in specific of this chip, I won't lay claim to it being safer or longevity of your life. I have not researched it enough other than playing around with it in my car and a brief look at it. I know some basic tuning rules were followed, and I had zero problems with it on 5psi of boost. However, I have never physically seen it or how the a/f is affected on the dyno.



--------------------

Looking at my post now... it's very apparent as to why people don't go into huge detail on this subject, and why misconceptions remain... hopefully some are cleared up.



-Kyle Jones


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2003 7:12 pm 
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Location: Brisbane
Just to add to that...the Mk1 ECU's don't have ignition control. <p></p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 12:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 7:41 pm
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Location: Armstrong British Columbia
Good job there Kyle, seems like someone did some homework.<br>I got lazy and installed a completely tuneable system.<br><br>My only beef about chips.<br><br>*design chip<br>*burn chip<br>*install chip<br><br>this takes time and most common people do not have chip burners in their vehicles. so the push for aftermarket injection...<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://groups.msn.com/holyshift/fabrication.msnw">groups.msn.com/holyshift/...ation.msnw</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>MURR<br><br> <p>MURR<br>1990 Suzuki Swift GT<br>TOY racer</p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 5:13 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 11:03 pm
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Location: Calgary, Alberta. Canada
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My only beef about chips.<br><br>*design chip<br>*burn chip<br>*install chip<br><br>this takes time and most common people do not have chip burners in their vehicles. so the push for aftermarket injection...<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>that's why they invented EPROM emulators. You can do real time data changes on the fly to make the chip. After you have the program you want you can take the complete set-up into a major electronics store and have it burned onto a chip. An emulator runs about $100 US for a cheapie unit. Programer usually start about $150 US for the base models and go up form there. EPROM erasers start at $70 US and go up form there. Chips if you can find them are the hard things. I have found one place that has them for $10 US each min quantity 50 units <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :( --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/frown.gif ALT=":("><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> The 27C128 EPROMS are a discontinued item so there very hard to find. Plus almost all vechicle manufacturers used the 27C128 style EPROM in their ECU's.<br><br>So for about $350.00 you can start making you own programs for your ECU. That's if you know how to decipher the Hitatchi 6303 arcitecture that our 'proms are based on.<br><br><br><br>Adam<br><br>Teamswift Webstore Webdaddy <p></p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 6:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 11:47 pm
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Location: San Juan, Argentina
Kyle, I am electronics engineer and I couldn't have described the ECU better than you. Very simple terms.<br><br>I will add some tip here for those who dropped some cams in and want to increase idle speed without having a sensor fight. As many of us know, when the idle screw is adjusted for a new idle, after a couple of miles the idle will go back to 800 rpms. But the ECU can be tricked and the idle can be set to 1500 rpm reliably. When the A/C is turned on, the ECU sets the new idle to be 1500rpm. Of course we don't need an A/C to idle at 1500, but we can make the ECU think the A/C is on by switching one of its inputs. If you look at the ECU connector description, there is an input pin named A18 (GTIcouple's website hosts a PDF copy of it). This pin is normally connected to +12volt when the ignition key is on. Well, connecting this pin to ground or chassis will accomplish the task by means of a single switch. Of course we will need to adjust the idle screw (open it a bit) and perhaps opening the throttle butterfly by adjusting the throttle stop screw and the TPS. IF THE CAR HAS A/C , then the only thing needed is to turn the A/C on and take the A/C fuse out, because we don't want to race with the A/C on, do we ?<br><br>With this set-up the engine will idle at 1500 without going crazy. This will work on MK2 / MK3. Not sure about MK1. <p>'95 Suzuki Swift GTi tuned by HM Competición</p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 6:29 pm 
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Similar thing...it switches on the a/c idle-up air bypass switch, which you can then adjust for the idle you need.<br><br>Re-timing of cams and a properly recurved distributor also did wonders for my idle quality. <p></p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 2:10 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2001 11:55 am
Posts: 2595
Location: Calgary, Alberta
I'll take that as a very good compliment Caarlo. Thank-you. I just figured it was about time to explain it so that people could understand it. <br><br>Sometimes I learn well. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br> <p>-Kyle Jones <!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.angelfire.com/de/ksj/myswift.html"><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong> Junk-Yard Turbo set-up, formerly NOS-fed, constantly evolving 1989 Suzuki Swift GTi</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br></a><!--EZCODE LINK END--><br></p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 6:37 pm 
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It is a fact. Today I opened my MK3 ECU and Pin 27 of the EPROM is tied high, so the 27c256 in MK3 is just emulating a 27c128 for economy, with the map loaded in its upper half. MK2 and MK3 programs should be interchangeable on a 27c256 or 27c128. Pin 27 of a 27c256 could be switched low or high for dual map on MK2 or MK3.<br> <p>'95 Suzuki Swift GTi tuned by HM Competición</p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:15 am 
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what is the average HP/Tourque gain with the chip?<br>1/4 mile times? <p>Dale Hammond <br>Canadian Swift GTI Club<br>Email- SwiftGTI@Rogers.com<br>Website- http://www.stedix.com/swiftgti Canadian Swift GTI Site<br>'94 GTI Owner<br></p><i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:32 pm 
the car was a GTi 92 whit:<br><br>header 4-1<br>racing muffler<br>power filter arosspeed<br>custom made chip <br><br>(bad rings)<br><br>dyno runs whit chip<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMTI5MDY2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D">www.we-todd-did-racing.co...MXk1NDE%3D</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>the end of my old GTi:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMTI5MDU3NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D">www.we-todd-did-racing.co...MXk1NDE%3D</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br>my new GT 94´<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMTI5MDU2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D">www.we-todd-did-racing.co...MXk1NDE%3D</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><br>coming soon new pics of my GT and dyno runs whit:<br><br>header 4-1<br>sport muffler<br>green power filter<br>c/r: 10.3:1<br><br><br>and more...coming soon dyno runs<br><br>complete headwork: port & polish, valve angle <br>c/r: 10.5:1<br>tom´s chip<br>news rings and pistons<br><br>i´m crazy of this dyno run<br><br><br>salutes of argentina <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br><br> <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: dyno run
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:56 pm 
<!--EZCODE IMAGE START--><img src="http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMTI5MDY2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D" style="border:0;"/><!--EZCODE IMAGE END--><br><br> <p></p><i></i>


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 Post subject: CHIPS!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 4:51 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 7:44 pm
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Location: Rawdon,Qc
Hi all ! <br><br>Dont know if somebody talk about this earlier!!<br><br>I want to know what's the best chip to put on a original GTI with k&n and kasili no restriction muffler...<br><br><br>Thanks all!<br>Im in montreal Canada!<br> <p>Glass-Shadow <br>Suzuki Swift GS 94 DOHC Power Steering<br><br>www.geocities.com/robert_audette2001/1.html<br></p><i></i>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:14 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:57 pm
Posts: 318
Location: Prostejov
How to get maps from BIN file? I am going to install aftermark EMS (Megasquirt or Haltech) and I want to set the same numbers.
Can you help me?

Philip

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Suzuki Swift Kit Car


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:21 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:09 am
Posts: 1
Location: Québec
Hi
Anyone has some adress for the GTI eprom like K value, fuel map, ignition map, etc...
Any help will be greatly appreciated
Thanks
Fred


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