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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:30 am 
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Location: Auburn Wa
I purchased a set of Bosch 4+ Spark plugs and installed them in my 1.0 3 cyl vert. Idle smoothed out noticably and gas milage increased at least 10%.

I went to take the emmissions test here and failed. HC and CO is too high at idle. Usually this is a fault of the O2 sensor or the catalytic converter. Sometimes on rare occaisions it's the injector in the throttle body. The O2 sensor is a one wire jobby indicating there is no built in heater as the 3 and 4 wire ones have. Upon removing the O2 sensor it fell apart when I touched it. Probably the original sensor as emission tests were not required where I purchased the car. The threads and 6 point flange (nut) are ok so it was still easy to remove from the exhaust manifold, once I removed the oil filter to gain access to it.

So I am recommending the Bosch 4+ plugs as they will fire real well in rich enviroments. Those of you running advance cam sprokets and perfomance chips will appreciate the performance of the plugs too. :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:30 pm 
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I think you're one of the few guys that's had positive results with them. In most cases I've heard of, the Bosch plugs end up messing up the engine's operation.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:11 am 
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I've run them in every car I've owned since 2000. I've always been impressed with them.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:23 pm 
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I've run them & thrown them out after a couple days, they are overpriced pieces of crap !
stick with plain old ngk's, bpr6es, they may not last 160k km's, but you'll get a good solid spark every time and a better & cleaner running engine.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:26 am 
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Be aware that I am recommending the +4 Platinums and not the regular platinums. The +4 platinums have 4 ground straps and better flame propagation due to side firing and greater exposure to the air fuel mixture. This greater exposure results in more complete burn, due to greater spark exposure to the mixture. More complete burn = better power, better milage, and lower emmisions. Also having at least twice the amount of platinum that the original single ground strap Bosch Platinum Plugs had they should provide greater longevity/reliability.

Bosch plugs use a platinum core instead of a copper core through the center of the plug to carry the voltage to the electrode end of the plug. Platinum as any chemistry professer will confirm, is a better conductor of electricity than copper but is also more brittle than copper. Bosch original plugs in my humble opinion used too little platinum in their original design. They literly broke internally along the platinum and would jump that broken pathway until the gap widened and the plug went compltely dead! Bosch originally used the bare minimum of platinum as platinum is so extremely expensive. I am not sure of actual current prices now, but platinum has always been somewhat close to the price of gold! Unfortunantly this made a weak and unreliable plug. Greater strains on the plug exhibited by rich mixtures and possibly detonation greatly reduced the life of the plug! The increases of hotter ignitions also weakened the plugs and this casused premature failures as well. Bosch realized all this and that is the reason for additional ground straps and higher platinum content. The higher platinum content can take a hell of a lot more abuse and the four ground straps allow 4 times the wear over a single ground strap thereby assuring proper spark gap over a longer time/milage.

I had bad expieriences with the original Platinum plugs as well they would just go completely dead on me after 20 to 30 thousand miles. I don't believe that will be the case here as there is literly twice as much platinum in the +4 plugs as there was in the original plugs. How long they will last??? well I could post back in 4 to 5 years and let you know. This thread will be long dead by then!

I don't recommend things lightly, and when I do you can be assured that I have tried them out in my own vehicle and read about them thoroughly before even buying them. These plugs are considerably more expensive compared to my favorite NGK brand plugs. $5.99 a plug for the Bosch Platinum 4+ Plugs. The reason mostly for this price is the extremely costly platinum content. Be assured I would be recommending the NGK's if it were not for the new design of the Bosch plugs.

If you haven't tried the +4 Bosch plugs yet, please don't flame them based on the original Bosch platinum plugs as there is no compairison between the two! The originals I tried and used them in two different vehicles and didn't like them after 20 to 30 thousand miles and went back to my NGK's. My MSD 6 capacitor discharge ignition tore up the Bosch originals in around 8 thousand miles or so. I don't think I would run the new plugs in my V8 as it is cost prohibitive to just try them out. MSD sends multiple sparks and has a much hotter spark as well. It is really hard on plugs and wires. 6 dollars times 8 plugs equals 48 bucks and with tax that would be over $50.00 for 8 plugs. Naaa I will stick with the NGK's in that vehicle!

If your not really sure how spark plugs work.... here is a link that may answer some questions or fill in some blanks http://www.centuryperformance.com/spark.asp


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:23 pm 
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I've tried them, they haven't made any difference.

http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php? ... h+platinum

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:34 pm 
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Vert Guy wrote:
Bosch plugs use a platinum core instead of a copper core through the center of the plug to carry the voltage to the electrode end of the plug. Platinum as any chemistry professer will confirm, is a better conductor of electricity than copper but is also more brittle than copper.


Platinum doesn't conduct electricity near as well as copper.

http://www.eddy-current.com/condres.htm

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:03 pm 
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rob161 wrote:

Platinum doesn't conduct electricity near as well as copper.

http://www.eddy-current.com/condres.htm


the advantage of platinum plugs is they last twice as long or more without wearing away . and the exposed platimun stays cleaner.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:02 am 
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platinum plugs also tend to come apart and do some serious damage under high heat instead of just fouling or melting like copper or silver plugs.
silver plugs are the best you can get, with the added bonus of the tips melting at a lower temp. then your pistons, it's a nice little safety feature. copper and silver conduct electricity much better then platinum.
your spark plugs are a window into your engines health as much as they are a part of making it run.
'performance' plugs may seem like the simplest upgrade for beginners, but they're not worth the money, they're placebos, junk, and likely not as good as the oem part. same goes for 'performance coils', unless you're spending big money for a msd-digital ignition system or similar, you're likely downgrading from the oem unit.
if you want a really simple and cheap (free) upgrade for your ignition system that actually makes a positive difference, try advancing your timing a few degrees :P (just back it off a bit if you notice some pinging)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:22 pm 
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Ok where do I start.....


Lets start by clearing up resistance...

Every metal has a specific resistance to it. It's resistance is measured mostly with a very little specific amount of electricity passing through it. While it is true copper has less resistance than platinum at very low currents.

It is alao true when you up the voltage and current to all know metals it will increase in it's resistance properties in respect to the available energy as expressed as amps and the available push of that energy expressed as voltage, passing through the metal.

Now this is the important part here.... When a "given" (IE: same) amount of increased voltage and amps do all metals increase in resistance at the same amount/curve? I think your getting the catch here now. Copper will increase in resistance (expressed in heat) at a much greater rate than platinum will.

So when you are pushing 8 to 10 amps at 40,000 volts through a chunk of copper it has a huge resistance properties to it over platinum of the same size. This is because platinum doesn't heat up as much due to lower resistance at higher voltages and amps, and it is of a denser material than copper is. This denser material allows higher electron flow with less resistance at higher voltages. If my chemistry memory serves me right over 20 years ago hehe.

Ok so now your wondering what is the advantage of platinum plugs over copper plugs and spark energy generated? Since platinum plugs have a lower resistance to large amounts of electricity than copper does this means there is a hotter spark at the actual time the energy jumps the gap between the center electrode and the ground strap. More resistance would stand to reason the energy is spread out over a longer time/dwell than say a plug with less resistance. This means the spark energy is more intense and of a shorter duration in a plug with less resistance.

Now as to why platinum plugs last longer than copper ones. Copper transfers some of it's own electrons with the spark energy when a spark plug fires. This transfer of it's own electrons causes a molecular errosion of the copper element. Platinum molecues are much much more tighter in the electron eliptical patern around the neucleus of the platinum atom. This allows more platinum molecues in the same size, as a piece of copper. Hence platinum is a denser metal than copper is. The protons in a platinum atom are very strong and they pull the elctrons in tighter orbit around it's nuecleus which consists of equal number of protons and nuetrons. Protons are positively charged and electrons are negatively charged and nuetrons have no charge. Nuetrons work like the glue to hold the protons in a atom. The speed of the electrons circling the protons/nucleus of a platinum atom are much higher. But the pull of the protons on the electron (Opposites attract) are incredibly higher than say copper. This means it is more resistant to electron transfer!

Why are platinum plugs more resistant to fouling? They produce a hotter spark which cleans the plugs and the platinum itself is denser so the carbon atoms have a less porous suface to stick too. I am sure there may be other reasons too but no need to spend a day here listing and posting them here.

I know this is really deep and I am sorry to go into such detail but there are a lot of miconceptions here and it was necessary to help understand a bit of atoms and how they work.

Keep this in mind... why do we use copper as heating elements? It is because when we increase the voltage and amperage it heats up really good! This heat is great for toasters, base board heaters, etc..! This heat is called electrical resistance! Plain and simple. There are a lot cheaper metals out there than copper, but we use copper because it heats up so well.

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platinum plugs also tend to come apart and do some serious damage under high heat instead of just fouling or melting like copper or silver plugs.


That is very true. Platinum is much more brittle than copper. So if your detonating then I wouldn't recommend these plugs. But if your detonating... your engine may not be long for this world anyways. This "comming apart" as N1tr0 says was a real problem with the original bosch plugs. I don't believe it will be an issue with the newer plugs though as they have 75% to 100% more platinum in them. That means the core should be 1 3/4 times to 2 times thicker than the original plugs! As for serious damage? The strand of platinum in the original plugs was so small I doubt very seriously any significant damage was ever done to any engine. I suppose it may have been possible but I never heard of anything. The platinum if it ever did get loose in the engine would probably just get expelled out the exhaust valve. Remember this is a tiny very small piece of platinum.... there is no way it would bridge the gap between the cylinder head and the piston and poke a hole in the piston. The only thing I can think of is it may get caught between the valve and the seat but carbon does that all the time. Hmm I don't think there really is any way whatsoever that any damage could be done by a small chunk of platinum from a bosch original spark plug in a street engine. None of you are running a nitro mix in your commuter cars are you? Please feel free to post back with any proof as I am real curious to see if there is even one issue ever of this happening! No hoaxes please. :wink:

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'performance' plugs may seem like the simplest upgrade for beginners, but they're not worth the money, they're placebos, junk, and likely not as good as the oem part.


Are you flaming me? Calling me a beginner? Because spark plugs are easy to change/upgrade. Doesn't necessary mean you should call people beginners. Most people will see through petty comments such as this. It only weakens what you say from this point on. I spoke in facts and data. Not name calling and flaming. Think about it. By the way where is your facts and data on comments such as that? I have explained how they last longer, stay cleaner, produce a spark that is exposed to the air/fuel mix better, burns the fuel more completely, and produces a hotter spark to boot. Hmmm seems to me the stock ones are not better over time are they. Show me your proof!

Quote:
I've tried them, they haven't made any difference.


What enviroment are we talking here? Were your old plugs worn? Did most all the fuel burn with your old plugs installed? If there was nothing wrong with the old plugs you may not notice any difference just driving around normally. The difference would show up on a gas analyzer though. It may also show up on a dyno test. 1 hp or less increase would be hard to test for and I don't think your looking for tons of hp output from changing from a good plug to a good plug. The things you will appreciate is over time mostly. Longer plug life, less emmissions should be the benifits you may not notice untill time passes. Compare your emissions test from your old plugs when they were new and your new bosch plugs and then you have some data to work with. Just be aware that you will have more milage on your vehicle when you put in the bosch plugs. But I think you will still see your emissions drop in comparison. This drop equates to more complete burn of the fuel and more power and more milage that you may not notice otherwise.

Guys remember this isn't nitrous oxide or a super charger here. These are merely spark plugs. It is not a new engine in a spark plug here.

If the plugs fail you or you don't like them... here is a link to get a refund on them. They are guarenteed for the life of the recommended milage in your owners manual. Bosch Peformance Guarentee form http://www.boschusa.com/AutoParts/SparkPlugs/Platinum/


Last edited by Vert Guy on Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:17 pm 
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I don't know who this Larry Carley guy is?? He may even work for Bosch.

But there was one thing I found out that I didn't know about the Bosch plugs and that is the material the ground straps are made of. Wear-resistant nickel yttrium alloy.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/boschsp.htm


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:56 pm 
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n1tr0 wrote:
platinum plugs also tend to come apart and do some serious damage under high heat instead of just fouling or melting like copper or silver plugs.
silver plugs are the best you can get, with the added bonus of the tips melting at a lower temp. then your pistons, it's a nice little safety feature. copper and silver conduct electricity much better then platinum.
your spark plugs are a window into your engines health as much as they are a part of making it run.
'performance' plugs may seem like the simplest upgrade for beginners, but they're not worth the money, they're placebos, junk, and likely not as good as the oem part. same goes for 'performance coils', unless you're spending big money for a msd-digital ignition system or similar, you're likely downgrading from the oem unit.
if you want a really simple and cheap (free) upgrade for your ignition system that actually makes a positive difference, try advancing your timing a few degrees :P (just back it off a bit if you notice some pinging)


word this guys got it right on the money

those plus 4 plugs are crap there a joke in the performance world..


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:45 pm 
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Quote:
word this guys got it right on the money

those plus 4 plugs are crap there a joke in the performance world..


Wow what a scientific review... Another great critique backed with logical thought and scientific data. Done lots of testing have you? Where is your facility? What were the enviroments you used to base your statements?

With statements like that you must be a rocket scientist or engineer? What college did you get your degree from?

Please speak more as your validating the Bosch +4 plugs better than I ever could.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:56 pm 
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I happen to know of an individual who did EXTENSIVE dyno tuning on the G13B...I'm talking a lot of dyno time.

They went thru EVER available spark plug under many different conditions.

After all was said and done, the FACTORY STOCK ORIGINAL plugs came out on top. They are second to none.

so...I take his word for it and run them. I'm running pretty good too...so the scientific stuff can lick my balls.

TGstring

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:33 am 
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Vert Guy wrote:
Quote:
word this guys got it right on the money

those plus 4 plugs are crap there a joke in the performance world..


Wow what a scientific review... Another great critique backed with logical thought and scientific data. Done lots of testing have you? Where is your facility? What were the enviroments you used to base your statements?

With statements like that you must be a rocket scientist or engineer? What college did you get your degree from?

Please speak more as your validating the Bosch +4 plugs better than I ever could.


do you work for bosch or somthing what is your obsession with these terrible plugs?

TGString is right all you need is one electrode having 2 3 and 4 is just a waist, there is the same strength of spark going across the electrode whether it is displaced weakly across 4 electrodes or strongly against 1 its the same, other than the fact that having 4 electrodes basically sheilds the spark from the rest of the combustion chamber.

in boosted applications these plugs create all sorts of misfire problems aswell.

i have also spoken with a previous employee at bosch who sold o2 sensors and plugs and he even admiteed to me himself that the only advantage to them is they last longer, and have problems with making cars run poorly.

copper is also a better conductor than platnium, and iridium and its cheaper aswell. Also as previously stated copper plugs tend to melt instead of break off if they get too hot, which could end up saving your motor.

stop trying to fight an uphill battle, the plugs are junk. accept it.


and if you would like some proof perhaps you should read the internet.

http://www.superhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129793
Quote:
I have had friends who thought there engines werent running right with these plugs. I kept telling them over and over its the +4 plug.

They swapped back to there old worn ngk and problem went away. Then they bought brand new ngk plugs and it actually picked up its original power.


http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/sh ... hp?t=57089
Quote:
If you search past postings in this forum (keywords: bosch plugs) you'll find the +4's aren't widely recommended - the general consensus is to stick with the original single electrode type - I read the originals are also platinum. Hope this helps.

Quote:
The bosch +4s are not good for you at all. Parts store guy gave me the same line years ago. I bought the +2s. I have since mailed them back to bosch and got my money back. They weren't worth the darn for me. The +4s are worse from what I have read.

Quote:
The bosch +4s are the worst thing you can get if you look at the plug the four electrodes shoud the spark from the fuel-air mixture not good senses

http://www.stealth316.com/2-sparkplugxref.htm
Quote:
- Bosch Platinum 2-, 3-, and 4-electrode plugs are not listed because many owners report problems with these in our engines.

http://dodgeram.org/tech/gas/Trouble/ping.htm
Quote:
Bosch 4+ and Splitfire sparkplugs have a reputation for pinging in Magnum engines.


im not going to waist my life anymore on this


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:43 am 
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All of you ripping on these, saying they screw with peoples engines, tell me, scientifically, what precisely is causing this? We have scientific reasoning for why they are better, persuade me why they are worse.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:34 pm 
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ride_for_life13 wrote:
All of you ripping on these, saying they screw with peoples engines, tell me, scientifically, what precisely is causing this? We have scientific reasoning for why they are better, persuade me why they are worse.


Holy, dead thread batman...

1 - The higher resistance of the Bosch plugs causes a slight delay in firing of the spark as the coil requires a higher peak voltage to fire the plug.

2 - They also take up more space in the combustion chamber than the standard sparkplug.

3 - Which running lean, or the plug gets gummed up, and starts to overheat, the electrode's cermic jacket is more likely to crack, shatter, and send hard/sharp shrapnel through your engine.

4 - Electrode flush with Cermic, results in far less electrode wear possible before plug failure. *Also refer to #3*

5 - Rediculous cost of the plugs.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:35 pm 
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My apologies for reviving a dead thread, but I have been using these since I first purchased my geo and was curious as to what the proven/probable disadvantages to these were. All I ever saw were claims like "dont use them they're crap" with no substance behind it. Thanks for the advice, I am reconsidering running these in my new engine....

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:53 am 
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ride_for_life13 wrote:
My apologies for reviving a dead thread, but I have been using these since I first purchased my geo and was curious as to what the proven/probable disadvantages to these were. All I ever saw were claims like "dont use them they're crap" with no substance behind it. Thanks for the advice, I am reconsidering running these in my new engine....


No worries,

I posted my observations, because this thread was lacking.

If you are going to want long life plugs, go with something like an NGK Iridium or if you want to go with the old standby which will work great but just needs to be replaced more often, go with the standard NGK Coppers. Champion plugs are crap, but there are some rare cases where their models of plugs work best. AC/Delco is in the same boat as Champion.

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B. Berry: '90 Chevrolet Turbo Sprint 1.0L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk2" Made in Japan

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:49 pm 
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I run stock Champs in my Neon with not a problem since the day I bought it. Bosch are overrated, and NGK is my preffered brand, but i seem, to have a hard time finding the right ones for my application.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:54 pm 
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So heres a thought. If a big proponent behind the failure of these plugs is the delay in spark, wouldnt advancing your timing solve this?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:30 pm 
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ride_for_life13 wrote:
So heres a thought. If a big proponent behind the failure of these plugs is the delay in spark, wouldnt advancing your timing solve this?


Why would you bother? For the price of two plugs, I can buy 4 sets of plugs for a G10, or 3 sets for a G13, without any of the other issues that the Bosch multi-tips bring. I'm sure you'd rather not change the plugs once, but have to change your rotor and cap instead, because the extra resistance in the plug makes the spark jumping across hotter and strains the rest of the ignition system.

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B. Berry: '90 Chevrolet Turbo Sprint 1.0L 6v SOHC 5sp+ "Mk2" Made in Japan

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Location: Georgetown, Guyana
Vert Guy wrote:
Ok where do I start.....


Lets start by clearing up resistance...

Every metal has a specific resistance to it. It's resistance is measured mostly with a very little specific amount of electricity passing through it. While it is true copper has less resistance than platinum at very low currents.

It is alao true when you up the voltage and current to all know metals it will increase in it's resistance properties in respect to the available energy as expressed as amps and the available push of that energy expressed as voltage, passing through the metal.

Now this is the important part here.... When a "given" (IE: same) amount of increased voltage and amps do all metals increase in resistance at the same amount/curve? I think your getting the catch here now. Copper will increase in resistance (expressed in heat) at a much greater rate than platinum will.

So when you are pushing 8 to 10 amps at 40,000 volts through a chunk of copper it has a huge resistance properties to it over platinum of the same size. This is because platinum doesn't heat up as much due to lower resistance at higher voltages and amps, and it is of a denser material than copper is. This denser material allows higher electron flow with less resistance at higher voltages. If my chemistry memory serves me right over 20 years ago hehe.

Ok so now your wondering what is the advantage of platinum plugs over copper plugs and spark energy generated? Since platinum plugs have a lower resistance to large amounts of electricity than copper does this means there is a hotter spark at the actual time the energy jumps the gap between the center electrode and the ground strap. More resistance would stand to reason the energy is spread out over a longer time/dwell than say a plug with less resistance. This means the spark energy is more intense and of a shorter duration in a plug with less resistance.


There's a flaw in your arguement - you don't have "huge amounts" of current flowing through your sparkplugs - it's actually less than one ampere, a lot less.

Remember the first law of conservation of energy, which states - energy can neither be created nor destroyed - your ignition system is powered by a 12V source with a 20A fuse for a maximum available 240VA, by the time it gets to the plugs, it's >14kV and probably higher - which means, ignoring the inefficencies in conversion, the current through that plag can be no more than 0.017A - and probably a lot less.

Your 8~10A at 40,000V would be 320~400KW - give or take - 450~536hp - the engine doesn't produce that much power.

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'93 1.3 Swift GLX
'98 2.0 Grand Vitara


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