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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:36 pm 
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Location: Courtenay, B.C.
Greatings!

Just about to build my bottom end in my 87 Forsa Turbo. I did the head about 4 months ago using 1.6 valves and the "Somender Singh grooves". I would like to raise the compression a pinch perhaps even more... considering the grooves and the possiblity of water injection. When the head was done, it was milled 15 thou, can I get more compression simply by decking the block? I realize that the cam timing will change, but is it going to move the power up the revs, or down? Pistons, how bout some 16v pistons? I realize that would be rather high compression for a turbo, but Id like to test out the grooves. :)

Also, I would like to know what is involved with o-ringing a block. I went to my local machinist guy and asked him, he said they cut a groove around the cylinder and use a copper<?> oring with no head gasket. I thought they milled the entire deck down and left a ring around the top of the sleave... am I all ass backwards on this? I am planning on using studs instead of headbolts aswell, anybody got any part numbers to speed my quest?

Oh oh ohhh... alsooo, I have a tonne of suzuki pistons in boxes from SJ's Samurai, Sidekick, turbo 3... how the hell do I identify them?

Please help, I am getting tired of breathing the fumes, the blowby is so intense, and the smoke bombs are getting embarassing.

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Last edited by JooF on Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:11 pm 
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26 hits and no suggestions? Any help on how to identify turbo pistons, and or sidekick pistons would be great!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:54 pm 
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abby normal
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JooF wrote:
26 hits and no suggestions? Any help on how to identify turbo pistons, and or sidekick pistons would be great!


I was wondering why you wanted to raise the static compression on a turbo motor,
when the average tuner just raises the boost pressure.

The MK1 T3 turbo pistons use floating wrist pins, with a dished top.

For information on O-rings look in the "add turbo or nitrous" section.

As far as a T3 rebuild, CJDavE posted this:

http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=12925


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:17 pm 
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actually, having the base compression running a little higher while running a light pressure turbo is a pretty nice combination of performance features.

the higher compression allows for a bit more torque at the low end and gets you through the "suspense" of the turbo coming up. there's a book that could be written on mechanical failures from split rubber hose connectors to blown head gaskets from "turning the boost up." and lastly, fuel management is easier to get a handle on with light boost pressures.

it sort of depends on what your end goal is. most of the light pressure turbo designs i've seen were made up with an eye to the environment, fuel economy, and reasonable maintenance. most of the monster tuned turbo projects out there are purpose built fun cars.

as for the o-ringed head, the best jobs i've ever seen on an open deck style engine had slots milled in the head that were fitted with pieces of piano wire cut to fit them exactly. a solid piece of copper was cut to fit as a gasket. when the head bolts were torqued the piano wire was pressed into and deformed the copper around each combustion chamber while the rest of the passages from the block to the head seal with the copper.

machining is critical, assembly is critical, but the compression holding ability is marvelous. you have to use a new copper plate every time you pull the head so get a couple of spares done with the first one.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:24 pm 
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Location: Courtenay, B.C.
Well, I went out to the shop today, about a 20k trip, and about 3 minutes b4 I arrive, the car starts acting strangly. Feels like its only on 2 cylinders. Now, with doing the head 4 months ago and knowing the bottom end has many many K on it, I was really milking the poor lil block for every kilometer I could get outa it. Actually, you can read that as "I am a lazy ass mofo, and didnt want to do the work".

So, my friend was kind enough to loan me his car till the morning. I have to pull this motor tomorrow, and swap it with a used one of unknown history. I must must must build this motor this week, like monday.

Thanks for the link 87t1, Ive read that thread and many others, but I am not seein the info I am after... Id like to keep the rods, possibly the pistons, or trade for a piston of higher compression.

I am all about efficiency and get a kick out of "the underdog" things in life, such as this lil motor. I am currently building a twin tcase automatic sidekick with the MK2 G10t engine and would like to start experimenting with more torque, lower in the rev range, faster spooling, and all that stuff. I fully intend on running more than 7 psi into the motors I am building... I am reading of g13's holding 10psi with thier 10:1 compression... is that because of the crank? Same rods, better pistons in the G10, why cant I have 10psi and 10:1?

t3ragtop, I have read a tonne of your posts and have respect in your knowledge with the newer motors, thanks for your input... very interesting o-ring idea... I was looking for something more of a procedure, my machine guy is quite good at one offs... I will search more on this.

And head studs? Anyone?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:54 pm 
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OK, here is what you're after. O-ringing a block, or head to use the stock style composition gasket. First of all, you use this for applications where the cylinder pressure has proven to be too much for the stock gasket.
The wire used is stainless steel aircraft lock-wire. I usually use .030" wire, though it comes in other sizes, and i see no reason that you couldn't use others too. The wire gets inserted into a groove that you cut in the block or in the head depending on what works out best for your application. The groove for the wire is cut .001" narrower that the section diameter of the wire itself. For example, i would cut my groove .029 wide for a .030" wire.
This groove width is controled by the width of the cutter that you use. Special cutters, and tools are made specific for this job, but a machinist should be able to do it on a vertical mill with a custom ground cutter in a boring head. The diameter of the groove and wire is important too. The wires purpose is the bite into the head gaskets stainless steel fire ring, and give it more support to the forces of the combustion pressure. The wire should be installed a diameter that will place it at a slightly smaller diameter than the outside of the fire ring. Like maybe 75% of the fire ring inside the wire, and 25% outside for example. You have to look at every engine individually to decide on the best diameter for each application. The groove depth should be such that the installed wire will sit above the block by about .005" to .006" . Some engine shops vary from this depending on what they have had success with. While setting up, do some test cuts on some scrap aluminum to test your cutter operation and wire fit before cutting your actual block or head. Install the wire in the groove with a plastic face hammer, and finish with a hammer and a block of aluminum. Cut your wire a bit longer than you need, and do the final cut and trim with a small angle grinder or cut off wheel before the last 1-2 inches of wire are pushed into the groove. With some practice, you can make some very nice angled/overlapping joints that look almost jointless ....very careful, Good luck, and turn up that boost!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:38 am 
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It all depends on what your power expectations are, and what type of fuel you want to run. If you want to run pump gas, anything over 9.5:1 (even with alky injection) is going to be a struggle. What kind of budget you have will also influence the decisions you make in this build. As for head gasket, I wouldn't run an o-ring simply because MLS gaskets are cheaper and seal better nowadays. O-rings are pretty much a thing of the past. Call Cometic and they will fix you up with a MLS gasket that will take all you can throw at it.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:24 pm 
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Location: Courtenay, B.C.
Thanks for the info Mr.Pipe! That is indeed the info I was lookin for!

Moved the car into the shop today, 17 psi on #3 cyl... pulling the motor tomorrow night. I have a different block I am taking to the machine shop tomorrow after work... new rings and bearings, possibly deck the block a bit to gain some compression.

Turbofly, Ive read about the Comtech gaskets b4, but I can not for the life of me find thier contact info... gotta link? Id rather try a really good gasket over more machine work... depends on what machinst guy says tomorrow. You would only go 9.5 max? What about my grooves and water injection, not to mention more fuel ofcourse....

Im printing out Mr.Pipe's explanation... if its no trouble and not too costly, I will have him do it and take pics for this thread to help others to follow. ;)

Anyone got a part number on head studs? I bought a new set of felpro head bolts last time I had the head off... are they alright to re-use? If they are reuseable, I may use them on my kick... will they fit a mk2 T3?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:16 pm 
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Location: Courtenay, B.C.
Welp, I got my bottom end built by a local guy here, looks to be quite spiffy, will post pics tomorrow night. I pulled the head to swap over to the new block and to my surprise I have yet another burnt, or chipped exhaust valve. The valves were used, so I guess that teaches me a lesson. Where can I buy stainless sidekick exhaust valves? I realize 3tech most likely has them, but I have no credit card for payment and I need them right away.

I did not bore the block out and use different pistons as the shop guy said it all looked very close to stock, just a hone job and new rings, and standard size bearings. Last time I had the head off, we took off 15 thou in hopes to increase compression a wee bit, but now I am reading that you can shave a whole lot more... any suggestions on how to pick up an extra full point of compression with just skimming the head? Am I correct in assuming that 40 thou is roughly = to .5 compression point?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:36 pm 
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Anyone? I cant seem to find stainless valves, or any sort of valve that will take some heat.... does anything cross over?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:01 pm 
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just to add a comment from past experiences.

mk1 turbo motor:

currently running stock bottom end, stock head gasket, NON o-ringed block... running 35psi of boost... not having any issues at all with head gaskets, internal components etc.

mk2/3 NA motor turboed:

mk2 NA motor turboed.... ive turboed an NA g10 block... decked .040" off the head... somewhere up around 10.5-11:1 compression ratio... ran 15psi boost... also, no problems with head gaskets, no problems with NA pistons/rods.. (pretty impressive)...

(stock oem valves too... so... they can handle decent heat)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:29 pm 
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extremerider wrote:
just to add a comment from past experiences.

mk1 turbo motor:

currently running stock bottom end, stock head gasket, NON o-ringed block... running 35psi of boost... not having any issues at all with head gaskets, internal components etc.

What turbo and intercooler are you using?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:32 pm 
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Ground Rat wrote:
extremerider wrote:
just to add a comment from past experiences.

mk1 turbo motor:

currently running stock bottom end, stock head gasket, NON o-ringed block... running 35psi of boost... not having any issues at all with head gaskets, internal components etc.

What turbo and intercooler are you using?


garrett T3 turbo... and a 12"x12"x3" (2.5 in and out) intercooler

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:47 pm 
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Which T3? Specs?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:29 pm 
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Ground Rat wrote:
Which T3? Specs?


saab garrett... 42 intake 48 exhaust.

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MT Motorsport
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Mk1 3cyl - 185whp/150ftlbs - 1/4mile 13.97@103mph


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:05 pm 
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Welp, its bin a grooling couple weeks. I have found so many little things that needed attention, but I think Im done. The motor is together with tranny and starter/alt... going to toss it in the hole tomorrow and hopefully even drive it.

What is a good break in procedure? I have read many forums about many types of engine break in.... some say drive softly, others say pound on it. wtf?

First oil change right awayafter the initial test drive, then second after 100? 500k? 1000k?

Pics and a bit more about what Ive done to come soon, thanks you guys!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:43 am 
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JooF wrote:
Welp, its bin a grooling couple weeks. I have found so many little things that needed attention, but I think Im done. The motor is together with tranny and starter/alt... going to toss it in the hole tomorrow and hopefully even drive it.

What is a good break in procedure? I have read many forums about many types of engine break in.... some say drive softly, others say pound on it. wtf?

First oil change right awayafter the initial test drive, then second after 100? 500k? 1000k?

Pics and a bit more about what Ive done to come soon, thanks you guys!


what did you end up doing?... boring? honing? rings? pistons? fill me in.

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MT Motorsport
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Mk1 3cyl - 185whp/150ftlbs - 1/4mile 13.97@103mph


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:31 am 
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All I could afford to do was a hone with new rings and bearings... I will have to experiment with my next motor. It just snowed piles here, not sure how much "loading"I can do to the motor today...\

The block I used had little to no wear on it, so it was honed and mic'd... the appropriate rings were ordered by the machine shop that assembled it. The bearings are standard I beleive. The head popped another valve, and my clutch and water pump were also garbage... so thats where my fun money went to this time... I did however fill all my mounts with SikaFlex... hopefully I have rid myself of the engine wobble I had.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:04 pm 
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Not that you folks havnt seen a rebuilt motor b4, but it pleases me to show off my hard work.

Motor is in the hole now... gonna wire and fire tomorrow after work with any luck.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:37 pm 
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looks good dude.

in terms of break in... for just a hone and some fresh bearings... just take it easy to let the rings seat... and for everything to go through a heat cycle. take it out for a drive using mid range rpm... and then park it... other then that, its pretty well broken in.

have fun :wink:

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Mk1 3cyl - 185whp/150ftlbs - 1/4mile 13.97@103mph


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:13 pm 
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rockon-athon

I'll give that a try, will post again when its finished.

thanks a bunch

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:54 pm 
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Edit - Let me pull my foot out of my mouth. :shock:

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Last edited by Ground Rat on Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:44 pm 
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are you sure about that? i've seen it personally.

pressure is only the result of flow versus restriction. the 42/48 T3 will handily outflow the requirements of a T3 cylinder head.

we had to LIMIT the boost to 35psi. i probably would have made more.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:03 pm 
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Wow, these heads must be really restrictive.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:39 pm 
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Well guys, its bin a few months and I have about 10,000 kilometers on the new engine! Seems to rattle a bit at neutral throttle at about 3500 rpm... Im guessin thats because I didnt bore and get larger pistons. :( However, she pulls pretty good and no more smoke! :)

I have not gone much past stock boost pressure as I am running a Mazda 626 bov, plastic junk leaks at anything over 7-8 psi! I have a 1st gen talon one I will install soon, but another project has my attention at the moment.... 3 cyl turbo samurai with twin cases and yota axles! I am sure I will be hittin you guys up for info in the very near future!

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