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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:25 am 
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Location: Melbourne
d15 for g13
d16 for g16

dattman do you have the g13 block height? I want to see if the rod stroke ratio is worthwhile with the d15 crank

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:21 am 
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d wrote:
Finally was able to figure out which crank goes into which
I bought 2 of Honda d16 and 3 d15 engines and measured up the cranks and placed them over suzuki g16a/b and daihatsu hd-e and hc-e engines.
Compared them to the ACL catalogues and finally believe Suzuki copied Hondas sohc bottom end design :D


The first suzuki g series engines came out in 1983, i know this as its plain in the suzuki.co.jp history section.

D series honda engines started in 1984 :razz: this i can only go off many info sites circulating the net.

The similarities in engine design is more likely to be due to class restrictions. If a 1lt engine needs to be less than 1000cc to be called 1lt for competitions/ goverment rules etc then it makes sense to get a bore stroke combo that is as close this as possible both the daihatsu (76x73) and the suzuki 3cyl (74x77) of the same era are 993cc, the suzuki has a smaller bore and longer stroke , maybe when thinking of a 1lt they felt the torque was important, daihatsu may felt the hp was.

The 1.6l g engine fits a 1.3l head. It was most likely initially designed to power their growing 4wd/suv market which was making bigger and heavier models. Having a high hp engine like the dohc g13 would be fruitless in a 200kg or so heavier vehicle would be a really poor design and marketing decision. So the block was modified (much cheaper than scratch building an untested motor) keeping the head designs the same means the only real way to change it is stroke, keeping the bore at 74mm would of meant a 92.4mm stroke, perharps they decided the test engine had to much torque and not enough hp went back reduced the stroke slightly increase the bore and got a more favourable better result.

I don't think suzuki went out and said 'hey lets take these ideas from honda' (interesting enough suzuki supplies it's kei engines to other japanese auto manufactures!)

A few people run 1.3l head on 1.6l blocks most say there is no noticeble diff, sure the valves a little bigger and the cam slightly longer duration but suzuki most like did the differences to produce small cumalitive gains.

I'm in the process of working out if 76mm daihatsu pistons fit in an 8v g13.
If i get 8v 3cyl daihatsu pistons with 18mm pins i might need to machine g13a or g13ba rods a mm larger or maybe the daihatsu rods will fit
otherwise if i get 4cyl 16v 1.3l daihatsu pistons with 19mm pin and use the gti rods or daihatsu ones.

What's holding me back is a drive across the city to the self serve wreckers and a set of digital calipers :razz: :razz:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:36 pm 
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LatteCruiser wrote:
d wrote:
Finally was able to figure out which crank goes into which
I bought 2 of Honda d16 and 3 d15 engines and measured up the cranks and placed them over suzuki g16a/b and daihatsu hd-e and hc-e engines.
Compared them to the ACL catalogues and finally believe Suzuki copied Hondas sohc bottom end design :D


The first suzuki g series engines came out in 1983, i know this as its plain in the suzuki.co.jp history section.

D series honda engines started in 1984 :razz: this i can only go off many info sites circulating the net.

The similarities in engine design is more likely to be due to class restrictions. If a 1lt engine needs to be less than 1000cc to be called 1lt for competitions/ goverment rules etc then it makes sense to get a bore stroke combo that is as close this as possible both the daihatsu (76x73) and the suzuki 3cyl (74x77) of the same era are 993cc, the suzuki has a smaller bore and longer stroke , maybe when thinking of a 1lt they felt the torque was important, daihatsu may felt the hp was.

The 1.6l g engine fits a 1.3l head. It was most likely initially designed to power their growing 4wd/suv market which was making bigger and heavier models. Having a high hp engine like the dohc g13 would be fruitless in a 200kg or so heavier vehicle would be a really poor design and marketing decision. So the block was modified (much cheaper than scratch building an untested motor) keeping the head designs the same means the only real way to change it is stroke, keeping the bore at 74mm would of meant a 92.4mm stroke, perharps they decided the test engine had to much torque and not enough hp went back reduced the stroke slightly increase the bore and got a more favourable better result.

I don't think suzuki went out and said 'hey lets take these ideas from honda' (interesting enough suzuki supplies it's kei engines to other japanese auto manufactures!)

A few people run 1.3l head on 1.6l blocks most say there is no noticeble diff, sure the valves a little bigger and the cam slightly longer duration but suzuki most like did the differences to produce small cumalitive gains.

I'm in the process of working out if 76mm daihatsu pistons fit in an 8v g13.
If i get 8v 3cyl daihatsu pistons with 18mm pins i might need to machine g13a or g13ba rods a mm larger or maybe the daihatsu rods will fit
otherwise if i get 4cyl 16v 1.3l daihatsu pistons with 19mm pin and use the gti rods or daihatsu ones.

What's holding me back is a drive across the city to the self serve wreckers and a set of digital calipers :razz: :razz:


I suppose suzuki and honda are competitive motorcycle manufacturers so the similarity is perhaps co-incidental. Well the funny thing is the crank measurements I found are pretty much exactly the same for the mains and crankpins. Also the girdle on the honda cranks and the mains have exactly the same bolt pattern yet suzuki uses smaller lower quality bolts.

All in all its good for us suzuki lovers to have a stroker option.

On the other hand the g16a/b needs machining of the honda d16 crank mains. However the benefits of using the g16 block is the taller 215mm block height which can allow some serious rod stroke ratio advantages if you can get say an SR20DE type 86mm stroker. Also 78-79mm bores if using high quality spun billet sleeves can give you a high revving G series.

The twin cam g13b head just to clarify has smaller inlet valves.

The sohc 16v has bigger inlet valves and a low pollution high torque but boring cam profile.

Back to the Honda d16 crank journals. Just undersized by a bees dick so it will need welding and remachining to the g16 required size. Since this has to be done and extra but promising mod will be also machining the crankpins to accept 40mm main bore sized conrods like those found on bikes and the nissan e15et turbo or NA engine. The e15et rods thanks to their small bores use less material but are very strong with no failures by any exa and pulsar turbo tuner yet recorded.

LAtte - The daihatsu rods are a nice upgrade they are beefier where it counts. Ill get some pics to compare the suzuki, honda and dai ones.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:26 pm 
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There are also other pistons used in the G16, besides the 12100-71820:

12100-71C50
12100-71C51

Read this thread:
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=24954

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:46 pm 
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Quote:
Back to the Honda d16 crank journals. Just undersized by a bees dick so it will need welding and remachining to the g16 required size.


Just how much is that measurement exactly?

Do you have a picture of that there "bees dick"? :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:45 pm 
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After some further thinking.....

Due to the lack of taller g15 or g16 blocks its probably better to stick with the g13 however they are terrible short at 187mm compared to 215mm for the g16 (even the hc diahatsu 1300cc block is 200mm!).

A possible solution would be to use the d15 crank which doesnt need any machining at all and to get the rod stroke ratio up would be to get a spacer plate manufactured to take it to 210mm.

That means a one off spacer plate that can be used for all g13b blocks however you must re-sleeve the whole thing with longer sleeves to make it rock solid.

You can use magnesium for the sleeve which is lighter will dissipate heat better and with a machined step on the block and spacer and some sealing solution will never leak and shouldnt have thermal expansion issues.

210mm is all the height you need to get a fantastic rod stroke engine for the 84.5mm crank from the honda. You can use the suzuki bearings straight off not the honda bearings which are thicker.

With a 77.5mm bore from mazda pistons with 28.3mm pin height you can get 1594cc with the 84.5mm stroke perfect to stay under 1600cc classes.

hope that helps, d.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:15 pm 
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d wrote:
After some further thinking.....

Due to the lack of taller g15 or g16 blocks its probably better to stick with the g13 however they are terrible short at 187mm compared to 215mm for the g16 (even the hc diahatsu 1300cc block is 200mm!).

A possible solution would be to use the d15 crank which doesnt need any machining at all and to get the rod stroke ratio up would be to get a spacer plate manufactured to take it to 210mm.

That means a one off spacer plate that can be used for all g13b blocks however you must re-sleeve the whole thing with longer sleeves to make it rock solid.

You can use magnesium for the sleeve which is lighter will dissipate heat better and with a machined step on the block and spacer and some sealing solution will never leak and shouldnt have thermal expansion issues.

210mm is all the height you need to get a fantastic rod stroke engine for the 84.5mm crank from the honda. You can use the suzuki bearings straight off not the honda bearings which are thicker.

With a 77.5mm bore from mazda pistons with 28.3mm pin height you can get 1594cc with the 84.5mm stroke perfect to stay under 1600cc classes.

hope that helps, d.


I think at that point you might be better off spending the time/money trying to source a g15 block. But yeah I think that would work good :)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:36 pm 
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Location: Brisbane
I've just been running some figures trying to work out what is achievable in terms of stroking a g13 with a d15 crank without major block mods.

All else being equal (rod length, piston height, deck), the difference between rod/piston combos at TDC is 4.5mm. I'm not sure exactly what the height of the stock piston is, but an educated guess puts them around 28.5mm. IF you were to keep the rod length the same (no I don't know if there is a 120mm rod that will fit the D15 crank) and using a piston with 24mm height that would give you a rod/stroke ratio of 1.42. Now I don't know a lot about this sort of stuff but I think that is at the very least the lower end of the scale of what would be acceptable, if not past it. It would surely be necessary to lower the rev limit if any longevity is expected.

One the up side, the relatively small bore dia is helpful. And I believe that low rod/stroke ratio engines are more responsive/torquey down low. A small turbo should produce usable boost comparatively low in the rev range for this size engine.

If a suitable rod & piston was easily (eg, cheaply) available it would almost be worth putting one together to see how it went.

Feel free to correct me where necessary :? :oops:

Damo.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:09 pm 
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Nice research... I will have to remember this if and when 12psi ceases to agree with my internally stock G16B Baleno engine. :cry:


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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:13 pm 
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Hey D.

I have a d16 honda crank and a g16 block sitting here....crank needs to be machined anyway so once its fits to the block..i will run honda rods right?

I am going for the strongest 1.6 bottom i can, with lower comp. TIA.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:34 am 
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Been away for a while sorry guys
As for the honda crank, you might as well get the honda crankpins to fit the e15et rods and the lowest pin height pistons to make sure the comp stays low otherwise cnc billet headgasket to the rescue.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:45 am 
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Dattman wrote:
Hmm can't say I've ever seen a g10b, I know some of the carry vans had 1litre 4cyl engines but I think they were steel blocks.


8) really? were they G series..ive always been disapointed suzuki didnt do a diesel variant of th g series...a steel block (whilst heavier) would surely be stronger, and more suited to extensive overbore... nice base to work with for a maximum effort drag engine :twisted:

what country did you hear of these 1 litre 4cyl being marketted in? might be a nice alternative to th g13\g16 as a base block.....

And Damo, see what you can dig up with th strokers..even if th maximum revs are limited...a bigger displacement (externally stock appearance)engine would be an attractive investment for local P platers with th new modification\engine restriction laws..


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:43 pm 
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Guys, I was wondering... If they Rod journals on the Honda cranks are too small. Is there a place to source oversized bearing shells for these engines?

If you wanted to keep the Suzuki rods of course, since it seems the honda journals are just a touch on the small side. It would be far cheaper option than getting the Crank remachined.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:25 am 
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g10a and g10b engines are alloy.
Alloy all the way!

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Last edited by d on Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:25 am 
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As for the crank, if you use the g16 block and the d16 crank the bearings wont be and issue as the mains on the d16 honda crank are bigger you need to machine down 3mm.

Main journal diameters---------------
G16a/b = 52mm
Daihatsu HD-E = 50mm
Honda d16 = 55mm

Crankpin diameters-------------------
Suzuki G16a/b = 44mm
Daihatsu sohc 16v = 45mm
HOnda D16 = 45mm

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:48 pm 
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Could people with manuals help to fill in the blanks for the question marks???

Im trying to compile the specs of the g13 and g16 engines in case we need to find parts to make them easier to rebuild or modify.
Please post up any info you can muster copy and paste with this layout to update.... Most are fom my measurements done to the suzi, dai & hon engines quite fidly work. Please re-check from a reputable manual this is just simple reference for getting ideas about improving performance and general information.

G13/16 - 84mm bore spacings

deck height (block height)--------------
Suzuki G16 = 215mm
Suzuki G13 = 187mm
Honda D16 = 212mm
Daihatsu HD = 210mm
Daihatsu HC = 200mm
Daihatsu HD-E = 212mm

Main journal diameters---------------
G16a/b = 52mm
Daihatsu HD-E = 50mm
Honda d16 = 55mm

Crankpin diameters-------------------
Suzuki G16a/b = 44mm
Daihatsu sohc 16v = 45mm
HOnda D16 = 45mm

Rod Lengths --------------------------
G16= 138.5mm

Valve sizes ---------------------------
G13/16-a/b/bb SOHC 16v all same
G16 16v
inlet = 30.1mm X 5.5 X 92.3 1R
G13b 16v
inlet = 29.1mm X 5.5 X 92.3 1R Smaller!!!!
exhaust = 24.9mm (all 16v sohc or dohc)

Inlet sizes same as Honda d16 sohc 16v/ Daihatsu HD sohc 16v
exhaust - 24.9 X 5.5 79.9 1R
Honda and Daihatsu = larger 26 mm (due greater valve angle)

capacities------------------------------------------------------------------
G13B and BB
1298cc - 74mm bore x 75.5mm stroke
G13A?
1324cc - 74mm bore x 77mm stroke
G15
1493cc - 75mm bore x 84.5mm stroke?
g16a/b
1590cc - 75mm bore and 90mm stroke
Crank-----------------------------------------------------------------------X
Stroke
G13B - 75.5 and 77mm (forged and cast respectively)
G13bb - (cast with solid journals - very strong compared to hollow)
G16B - 90mm (cast with hollow journals)
G15 - 84.5mm? (cast with hollow journals)

OVERBORES stock sleeves???????
1mm g16 = 1633cc
2mm g16 = 1676cc
reminder stock sleeves are dangerous at these oversizes custom full sleeves are recommended for following sizes....
2.5mm g16 = 1698cc
3mm g16 = 1720cc
3.5mm g16 = 1742cc
4mm g16 = 1765cc
4.5mm / 5mm (possible?) g16 = 1787cc / 1810cc
Pistons-----------------------------------------------------------------------X

Gudgeon pins
All 19mm ???????

Piston Pin heights-----------------------------------------------------------
G13b 29.1 mm
G15 ??????????????????????mm
G16b 28.5 mm
OEM vitara 75mm std pistons: 12100-71820-0A0
OEM vitara 75mm std rings: 12140-60A50
OEM vitara head gasket: 11141-71C00

Compression ratios---------------------------------------------------------X

1986-1989 Carbureted Samurais - 1324cc
Compression Ratio 8.9:1
1990-1995 EFI Samurais - 1298cc
Compression Ratio 9.5:1
1995 - 1997 Geo Metro with 1.3L - 1298cc
Compression Ratio 9.5:1

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:31 pm 
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G16B rod length should be: 139.57mm (It is quoted as being 138.5mm on here)

The Pauter rods I bought are quoted as being 5.495" which is 139.57mm centre to centre.
They are identical to the OEM ones in length.

Using the known value of 46.76cc chamber volume (assuming it is the same for the Baleno head)
75.0mm bore and 90.0mm stroke
OEM gasket bore of 76.0mm
OEM Gasket thickness of 1.0mm
Rod lenght of 139.57mm
Compression height of 28.0mm (which I measured with 61G50 pistons)
Deck Clearance of -2.43 (which I calculated given everything else)
and the figure of -5.4cc dome which has not been measured just the final figure needed to make RESULT CR of 9.53:1 which is give or take what the factory quote.

Interested in feedback.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:26 am 
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d wrote:
I suppose suzuki and honda are competitive motorcycle manufacturers so the similarity is perhaps co-incidental. Well the funny thing is the crank measurements I found are pretty much exactly the same for the mains and crankpins. Also the girdle on the honda cranks and the mains have exactly the same bolt pattern yet suzuki uses smaller lower quality bolts.


paging d!!!!

Is this crank girdle you are referring to from d15 or d16? Would the crank girdle from a d15 fit a g13??? I'm pretty sure the journals are same size, and you're saying the bolt pattern matches. You got a pic of one of these girdles?

Cheers,

Damo.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:30 am 
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damo currently in japan so when I get home Ill see what I can do but I remember the d16 all have girdles.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:32 am 
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My head gasket is 1.3mm thick. Its the stock one.


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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:49 am 
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Found this thread while doing a Google search. I'm a Honda guy but figured I would help you guys out some.

All D15/D16 blocks have girdles. The D16A6 has a steel girdle, all others are aluminum.

D17 rods share the same specs as the D16 rods with the exception of a .780" BE width versus the D16 .892" BE width.

B18A/B/B20 (B20 is from the CRV, not to be confused with the B20 from the Prelude) rods are the same length as D16/D17's and share the same BE bore. However they are .043" wider on the BE. When building D16 engines it is acceptable to mill each side of the BE to bring them to the correct width. The PE is .827" versus the D16 .748".


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:56 pm 
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Location: Brazil - RS
Well I'm building A G13 GTI engine and wat to build int the strong and cheap fransktein mode :alien:

I tough in using the toyota 4AGZE rods (2mm taller than Gtis) and I'm trying to find the pistons with a 27mm pin height when I found this link:

http://www.knology.net/~jediklc/pistonnotes.htm

It shows some interesting info on rods pistons on the honda and vitara pistons maybe something useful for this build.

I willl read carefully the link and post some ideas soon to know what you all think

thanks


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:33 pm 
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Location: Brazil - RS
The good:
G13 DOCH Gti build

Stock crank
+
4A-GZE Toyota 122mm rods
+
Honda PMS-A00 (US 01-03 GX) 76mm (0.040 over) Pistons +4cc dome 27mm compression height
+
stock vitara 1.6 (76mm bore) headgasket (0.039" thickness)
=
10.08 C/R / 1370.01cc

I hoped the compression ratio to be a lot higher because I use straight ethanol here, but instead came out pretty close to stock but a lot stronger motor because of the 4A GZE rods...

The bad:
the civic Gx pistons have a 19mm pin BUT the 4A GZE rod has a 20mm small end hole so you have to machine a metal bushing for reduce the hole from 20 to 19mm

If you go turbocharged you can use the D17 98-00 pistons that have a dished top and still 27mm compression height. I did not did the math to see the resultant C/R but its easy, just use those online calculators in the proper way.

Conclusion:
I will probably get the stock GTI rods and honda P29 pistons for a higher C/R (ethanol fuel)


UPDATE: a very good info on the otyota 4AG rods:

http://www.mr2supercharger.com/conrods.html

in this link they say that exists a rod that has a 18mm pin hole, so instead of making a pin bushing you can bore you the 18mm to 19mm that the GX pistons needs


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:51 am 
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Looking through the information posted I'm considering going down the path of mixing manufactured internal components (using a Honda D16 block). I've got a G16 block with with MPI that I want to place in a Sami. I'm in California so I'm going to make it such that it is smog legal (or at least easily switched back to smog legal), I just had the head reman'ed, and I justed paired down the wiring harness for the engine and ECU. Now I'm at the crossroads, I can go with the stock setup or beef-up the bottom end such that I can later add supercharger. I see that the journal need to machined in order to accept the D16 crank and there is a lot of discussion about the rods and pistons, but what about the flywheel and the timing belt cog on the front of the block, are they interchangeable? Has anyone here successfully installed the D16 crank into the G16 block or know someone who has? Has anyone written or started to write a how-to or FAQ after actually making the modification? I'm curious as to the details of the machining that is required and other caveats/hurdles that must be dealt with. Thanks!

-jeff


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:24 pm 
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Spoke with a machine shop that specializes in cranks, he said if you do machine down a Honda's D16 main journal then you need to redo the nitriding finish (a surface hardening) which runs $150 US, the machining of 2mm off the main journals would be no problem at $100. The shop said that those cranks are kind of scarce here in so. cal.


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