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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:50 am 
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The guy that is stroking my G13A crank suggested I investigate using other cranks that might involve less work and cost before we start.
I'm chasing up G16 and D16 cranks for measurements but not having much luck locally.
I've read here that the G16 and D16 cranks fit if you grind the mains down to 45mm to fit the block, but do the G13 flywheel, rear main, oil pump, timing sprocket and pulley bolt up to the G16 or D16 cranks or do those have to be modified as well?
Looking at the clearances, a 90mm crank would need a bit of tidying up inside the block. And to clear the crankweights, a rod of 125mm and a single-ring slipper piston with a compression height of about 17mm. But the huge stroke and crankpins leave plenty of room for adjustment in grinding the pins down to size and off-centre to reduce the stroke.
And, are some G16 cranks better than others?
Going to try some more wreckers tomorrow but if I can't find any by the weekend I'll just go ahead with stroking mine next week.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:25 pm 
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Why on earth would you want to stroke a G13?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:08 am 
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baldurg wrote:
Why on earth would you want to stroke a G13?


That's a helpful contribution to the thread...

Why wouldn't you want to?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:03 am 
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With a 90mm stroke your rod to stroke ratio will be approx 1.33.Even with a D15 crank your rod stroke ratio using a g13 block will be approx 1.43.Under 1.5 will not be satisfactory...piston speed,bore loading,accute angle of rod etc...No need to go to the wreckers for a crank.You will need a 1.5 or 1.6 block unless you are looking for just a couple of mm extra stroke.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:41 am 
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blake wrote:
With a 90mm stroke your rod to stroke ratio will be approx 1.33.Even with a D15 crank your rod stroke ratio using a g13 block will be approx 1.43.Under 1.5 will not be satisfactory...piston speed,bore loading,accute angle of rod etc...No need to go to the wreckers for a crank.You will need a 1.5 or 1.6 block unless you are looking for just a couple of mm extra stroke.


Thanks for your input.
Yes, I also think 90mm is far too much but I want 38mm crankpins so I can machine it down up to 84mm which I think is much closer to optimal, especially with smaller wrist pins and reduced compression height allowing a rod up to 126mm long for 1.5:1. The stock engine is only 1.558:1 to begin with remember, and it works just fine :-)
My questions aren't so much about the stroking but the compatibility of the crank to the block and periferals.
Which cars ran the G15 engine though?
The D15 is a Civic crank?
Is the Suzuki or the Honda crank more easily adaptable to fit the G13 engine?
I didn't get a chance to scout around today so it'll have to be tomorrow but I'll see if I can grab some complete engines to look at compatibility of parts.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:08 am 
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G15 is in the JDM Cultus(Baleno) 1.5 has a 84.5 stroke same as D15 honda,both the 1.6 and 1.5 $uzuki cranks are all hollow journal.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:13 am 
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blake wrote:
G15 is in the JDM Cultus(Baleno) 1.5 has a 84.5 stroke same as D15 honda,both the 1.6 and 1.5 $uzuki cranks are all hollow journal.


84.5mm sounds perfect!
I just checked with www.redbook.com.au and the Baleno was '95-'01 but only with 1.6 and 1.8 engines?
The hollow crankpins don't bother me as I'm not planning to work them hard.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:37 am 
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blake wrote:
G15 is in the JDM Cultus(Baleno) 1.5 has a 84.5 stroke same as D15 honda,both the 1.6 and 1.5 $uzuki cranks are all hollow journal.


Well, had a bit of search and all I've found so far is one reference to the 1.5 used in the JDM Esteem - "The Esteem featured a larger 1.5 L engine..." and "The larger engine was the only one available in the sedan." - but then when I checked for the Esteem it doesn't list the 1.5 at all.
So, are these cranks readily available anywhere in the world?
Any possibility they might be a common grey import into Australia?

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Last edited by ausgixxerpilot on Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:18 pm 
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ausgixxerpilot wrote:
baldurg wrote:
Why on earth would you want to stroke a G13?


That's a helpful contribution to the thread...

Why wouldn't you want to?


Because you can get a taller block (G16 block is about 25mm taller) that allows you to use longer rods for a better rod to stroke ratio.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:38 pm 
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baldurg wrote:
ausgixxerpilot wrote:
baldurg wrote:
Why on earth would you want to stroke a G13?


That's a helpful contribution to the thread...

Why wouldn't you want to?


Because you can get a taller block (G16 block is about 25mm taller) that allows you to use longer rods for a better rod to stroke ratio.


Sure you could go that way but I want to improve the engine I already have, not just replace it with a bigger one. If I were going to do that, I have a two-litre motor I built in '05 sitting on the shelf that I still haven't found a use for :-)
I think the importance of rod ratio is greatly exagerated myself.
The stock ratio of the G13B is 1.589:1, G13A is 1.558:1, G15 is 1.65:1 (assuming it uses G16 rods?), G16 is 1.55:1 - note the G16 has _less_ rod ratio than either of the 13's. A smaller wrist pin and reduced compression height allows longer rods to be used which brings the ratio back up anyway as I said.
I haven't driven the 15 or 16 but the 13's are torquey little motors despite their supposedly inferior rod ratio.

So, do you actually have any contribution to the questions I've asked?

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Last edited by ausgixxerpilot on Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:01 pm 
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G15A came in the GC21W and GC21S Cultus Cresent....1493cc 75mm bore ,97ps@6000 12.8kg.m/rpm sohc.Te Puke Partsworld Te Puke in NZ would be worth a try.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:36 pm 
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blake wrote:
G15A came in the GC21W and GC21S Cultus Cresent....1493cc 75mm bore ,97ps@6000 12.8kg.m/rpm sohc.Te Puke Partsworld Te Puke in NZ would be worth a try.


Email sent :-)
Thanks heaps for the lead!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:56 am 
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ausgixxerpilot wrote:
blake wrote:
G15A came in the GC21W and GC21S Cultus Cresent....1493cc 75mm bore ,97ps@6000 12.8kg.m/rpm sohc.Te Puke Partsworld Te Puke in NZ would be worth a try.


Email sent :-)
Thanks heaps for the lead!


I will provide you a G15 Crank if you wish

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:58 am 
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addzub wrote:
ausgixxerpilot wrote:
blake wrote:
G15A came in the GC21W and GC21S Cultus Cresent....1493cc 75mm bore ,97ps@6000 12.8kg.m/rpm sohc.Te Puke Partsworld Te Puke in NZ would be worth a try.


Email sent :-)
Thanks heaps for the lead!


I will provide you a G15 Crank if you wish


Sure thing.
First though, I need to know how compatible it is :-)
Do you have one you can take measurements off?
Ideally, I'd prefer one with damaged journals rather than grind down an otherwise good crank that someone else might want.
How much do you want for it and are you set up for Paypal?
And, can you get an idea of cost to airmail it to Perth, Western Australia postcode 6107 please.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:52 am 
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I did some drawings of each end of the G13A crank.
I hope they're clear enough.


Attachments:
G13A_Crank_Dimensions_1.jpg
G13A_Crank_Dimensions_1.jpg [ 178.65 KIB | Viewed 9183 times ]
G13A_Crank_Dimensions_2.jpg
G13A_Crank_Dimensions_2.jpg [ 115.7 KIB | Viewed 9184 times ]
G13A_Crank_Dimensions_3.jpg
G13A_Crank_Dimensions_3.jpg [ 138.87 KIB | Viewed 9185 times ]
G13A_Crank_Dimensions_5.jpg
G13A_Crank_Dimensions_5.jpg [ 108.06 KIB | Viewed 9187 times ]
G13A_Crank_Dimensions_2a.jpg
G13A_Crank_Dimensions_2a.jpg [ 174.77 KIB | Viewed 9181 times ]

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Last edited by ausgixxerpilot on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:00 am 
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Good work on the drawings, that work will help others for years to follow.

About getting another crank...do not buy a crank with damaged journals. Most times the damage happens in a way that causes localized heat. This heat causes the crank to bend.
Even if you try to grind this bent crank back straight, it will move in the crank grinder as you remove material from the journal. A crank that was bent and ground straight will need balancing again also.
Always start with the nicest crank possible if you want a nice finished product.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:16 am 
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Mr.Pipe wrote:
Good work on the drawings, that work will help others for years to follow.

About getting another crank...do not buy a crank with damaged journals. Most times the damage happens in a way that causes localized heat. This heat causes the crank to bend.
Even if you try to grind this bent crank back straight, it will move in the crank grinder as you remove material from the journal. A crank that was bent and ground straight will need balancing again also.
Always start with the nicest crank possible if you want a nice finished product.


I appreciate the advice :-)
I'm aware of heat damage and yes, I don't want a crank that badly damaged. But, if these are as rare as I'm finding I'd hate to modify a perfectly good one that somebody else might be desperate to use.
I figure balancing is going to be required anyway due the grinding of the crankpins.
I have emailed a few places about new and reconditioned G15 cranks but haven't heard back yet.

When I do manage to find a G15 crank I'll try to remember to draw crank details for that one as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:49 am 
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I'm just saying, that when you have the option of a closed deck block with a deck that's some 20mm taller than the G13 open deck block, why would you want the G13 block? Is your plan only to make the rod/stroke ratio of your G13 as bad as a stock G16?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:56 am 
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baldurg wrote:
I'm just saying, that when you have the option of a closed deck block with a deck that's some 20mm taller than the G13 open deck block, why would you want the G13 block? Is your plan only to make the rod/stroke ratio of your G13 as bad as a stock G16?


As I already stated, I'm not overly concerned with rod ratio as it is way over-emphasised.
My plan is to improve the engine I'm building rather than simply replace it with something else - much more fun :-)
I've never driven the G16, is their design particularly poor?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:20 am 
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Honda D16A crank dimensions.
Rod journals are 45mmx23mm wide.
Mains are 55mmx26mm wide.

I went to measure a D15A crank but it turned out to be a D16.

Since the mains have to be ground down to 45mm to fit the block there's enough meat in them to grind them to the G13 main bearing width.
The rod journals would need to be welded up the sides as well for narrowing if you wanted to run the G13 22mm-wide rods. If I decide to use the D16 90mm crank it would need de-stroking quite a bit to fit in the block so I think there's enough meat in the rod journals to not require narrowing. This is actually an advantage to the D16 crank as I want to run narrower rods. Got some work to do to see what stroke can fit.

The flywheel flange is pretty simple. It's 80mm diameter so needs to be turned down to 68mm to fit the rear main seal. The flywheel PCD is 63mm with M12 bolts but there's plenty of room to re-drill for M10 bolts on a PCD of 52mm. The flange is 1mm thinner than the G13 but I neglected to measure it from the centre of the main journal so I don't know if you'd need to run a 1mm spacer on the flange or not. It's probably simplest to measure it afterwards and just cut a spacer to set the flywheel the same distance from the face of the block as it is with the stock crank. I also forgot to check the oil galleries to ensure there's sufficient meat in the main-rod journal overlap for stroking, and I didn't bother measuring the thrust faces of the centre main.

The front is a little more complicated as expected.
The oil pump drive journal is essentially the same diameter but the "across-flats" of the drive faces is 1.25mm narrower than the G13. Since the pump is only driven at the front edge it would be pretty simple to run a weld along each edge and file it back to 0.625mm, but probably even easier to cut a 0.625mm shim to fit into each side of the pump instead. The oil pump drive journal is also 1mm shorter in height but I doubt that has any relevance. The front main seal journal is 1.3mm longer though so the timing gear is likely to be within 1mm of where it needs to be. Again, it'd be a matter of dropping the reground crank into the block and measuring the timing gear back to the block face and either machine the inside out of the timing gear or take some off the front of the front seal journal. The seal journal is also 1mm smaller diameter but I expect a smaller seal will address that without requiring machining.
The timing gear journal is 2mm smaller diameter which is annoying. He didn't have a D16 timing gear and I don't even know if it's belt or chain driven or if it's possible to use the Honda gear and change the cam sprocket to suit. It might be possible to make a timing gear by cutting the centre out of a Honda one and welding it into the Suzuki one but worst case scenario means welding the journal up and grinding it back to 24mm - not a deal breaker. It's also 17mm longer than the G13 journal so would need to be cut off and probably drill the bolt hole deeper for the timing gear bolt.

I'll probably make a plywood crank throw and rod and try it in the block to check clearance. Once I've decided on the stroke required I'll get a price from the guy that's doing the job.


Attachments:
D16A_Crank_Dimensions_1.jpg
D16A_Crank_Dimensions_1.jpg [ 174.98 KIB | Viewed 9185 times ]
D16A_Crank_Dimensions_2.jpg
D16A_Crank_Dimensions_2.jpg [ 110.04 KIB | Viewed 9181 times ]
D16A_Crank_Dimensions_3.jpg
D16A_Crank_Dimensions_3.jpg [ 177.68 KIB | Viewed 9183 times ]
D16A_Crank_Dimensions_4.jpg
D16A_Crank_Dimensions_4.jpg [ 111.2 KIB | Viewed 9182 times ]
D16A_Crank_Dimensions_5.jpg
D16A_Crank_Dimensions_5.jpg [ 127.3 KIB | Viewed 9181 times ]

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Last edited by ausgixxerpilot on Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:24 am 
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addzub wrote:
I will provide you a G15 Crank if you wish


I'm still awaiting a response on this crank...

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:32 am 
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Ive been doing alot of research into this same subject from what ive discovered the d15 crank will bolt in with no alterations to it. I plan on using the stock rods 120mm and gsxr 1100 pistons. They are 75.5mm bore and have 25.5 compression height so that puts the top of the piston at tdc 187.75. With the head gasket in there we have another 1mm so our total deck height is 188. I may have to mill valve reliefs but it should work. Im not concerned about the rod ratio as this is going in a samurai that rarely sees the street and is all low rpm. This will be a high compression ethanol motor.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:52 pm 
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Did you get anywhere with this?


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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:36 am 
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Hi guys,

Older thread but it's what I got thru search.

I would like to know please if a G16 crank fits into a G13 block, swing clearance etc. if anyone knows?

I have no interest in the usual application, I am looking for capacity in as small and as light a package as possible that will see less than 3000 RPM for aero use. Rods and pistons would be custom so I just need to know about the crank, thanks in advance :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:56 am 
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No swing clearance you'd have to grind block

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