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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:40 am 
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Here is the recepy for the drys sump system on my car.

I use a two stage scavenge pump. It is a Pace Products CD2000 with 1.1" rotors run @ half crank speed. I use a ordinary L-section belt and two pulleys to drive it off the crank. It runs at half the engine speed.

The oil pan has one scavenge drain at the front and one at the rear (One for each section of the scavege pump). At least AN10 swept fittings are recommended from the pan to the pump, and the one (combined oultlet) tube from the pump to the tank is AN12. The scavenge pump pumps the air/oil mixture to an oil tank where the oil is de-aired. That tank is approx 5 litres in size and it has internal plates to aid the air/oil separation. I bought it second hand so i do not know what make it is.

I use the original engine oil pump for pressure.
The engine oil pump is fed from the bottom of the oil tank. There is a threaded bung in the side of the oil pump that can be used. I removed the original oil pickup and made a plug to seal the hole by cutting the tube to the oil pickup (about 1cm length), flattening it and and welding it shut before mounting it again.

Below is afew pictures of the oil pan, and also some overview pictures of the dry sump system and the crankcase ventilation.

/Peter


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Last edited by pelle17b on Sat May 21, 2011 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:55 pm 
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Location: Durham, UK
Hi,

Thank you very much for a detailed reply.
So, two stage scavenge pump is only 1 pump. I thought it was 2 pumps used.... :oops: .

I got a spare sump so I might make one for a dry sump.
You said 5 litres tank, how much oil do you put in?
Std capacity is 4 litre and by reducing oil sump, oil will moved to tank.
Do you supply oil to turbo charger?

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:15 am 
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Well it is one "pump", but with two scavenge sections bolted together and one outlet. It is modular in its design so I think you can add more scavenge sections and a pressure section too if you want. You can see the pump in the picture below.

Attachment:
P1010009.JPG
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Yes I supply oil to the turbo. I use one of the threaded bungs in the block above the oil filter (where the oil pressure switch is) for the turbo supply. I use a T-coupling threaded into the bung in the block. From the T i have two steel braided hoses. One to the turbo and the other to an oil pressure sensor. The oil pressure sensor (aftermarket analogue type) is mounted to the chassis to avoid fatigue problems due to vibrations. It is not good to have a lumped mass object (the sensor) mounted on long a stick (T-coupling) in a vibrating environment. Bound to break sooner or later. A sensor threaded directly into the block would probably be ok though.

I think i put in around 6 litres of oil including filter and oil cooler.

/Peter


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:02 am 
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Location: Durham, UK
Hi Peter,

Thank you again for fast and detailed reply.
My friend was bit worried about taking oil from said part to a turbo.
He thought oil will take easier route so engine might get oil stervations. But many people woh fit turbo to G13B engine uses same method so I didn't think it will be a problem.
Would oil get that hot? I heard too cold engine oil is not good either. Perhaps, you have hot oil returning from a Turbo to deal with....
I'm thinking of a heat exchanger plate between oil filter and block to deal with extra heat created by turbo oil circulation.

I think I will start to save my pennies!

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:35 am 
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My oil cooler is connected to a sandwich plate between the oil filter and the engine. The sandwich plate contains a thermostat so the oil cooler is only used when oil is hot.

I do not know how much the oil cooler is needed, but on a seven like mine there is not much space for a big radiator under the nosecone so any means to get the heat out are good i think. The oil cooler will definitely help in that.

The engine output with the turbo is roughly 50% higher than stock, so I suppose that the need for cooling is raised by roughly the same amount.

A heat exchanger plate will only help if you have enought cooling capacity in the water radiator.

/Peter


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:53 pm 
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Hi Peter,

I have looked at service manual for Gti engine.
Std engine oil pump is rated 25 litre/min @ 4000rpm.
Your pump is 13.5litres/min @ 1000pump rpm. Is this mean you have 2x 13.5 litres?

I'm thinking of buying 2 bike scavenge pumps off Honda Gold wing 1200cc bike.
It might be bad idea.... but I'm looking into it.

Thank you again for your info.

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:32 am 
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Pace products estimated the stock oil pump capacity to 8 l/min @1000rpm based on my measurements of the mechanical dimensions of the stock pump. This would compute to 32l/min @4000rpm (not spot on but not extremely far from 24l/min @4000 rpm).

The 8 l/min@1000rpm was used to calculate the needed size for the scavenge pump.

As a rule of thumb the scavenge capacity shall be twice the pressure pump capacity.

2 scavenge stages that each pump 13.5l/min@1000 pump rpm gives a total scavenge capacity of 13.5 l/min @ 1000 engine rpm since the pump is driven @ half the engine speed.

So Pressure pump capacity 8l/min@1000 rpm engine speed and Scavenge pump total capacity 13.5l/min @ 1000rpm engine speed.

If we use the factory pressure pump figures the pressure pump would put out 24/4 = 6 l/min@1000engine rpm so that gives a litttle more margin on the scaenge pump capacity, but still pretty close to the rule of thumb of twice the capacity.

Regarding the bike pumps i have no clue if they will work or not. Sorry.

Edit. I also measured the dimensions of the 1.6l suzuki oilpump. If my measuremetns are correct that pump flows approximately 15% more than the G13B pump. Roughly 7 litres per minute and 1000rpm.

/Peter


Last edited by pelle17b on Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:19 am 
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Hi Peter,

You have given me more than enough info.
I can't thank you enough.
I have more idea of what to do and how to do now, all thanks to you.

Cheers
Atchi


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:34 pm 
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Location: England
Cheers for this information, its a gold mine. Its going to make my eventually switch over alot easier :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:29 pm 
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Location: England
If anyone is still interested in the project I finally got around to fixing my website, www.joshogilvie.com

Also pelle17b do you have any more pictures of your build? I like following these kind of things :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:12 am 
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I looked at your site. Nice build!

I have a few build pictures at this link: http://www.superseven.se/sevengallery/#home

/Peter


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:44 am 
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Location: England
Your fuel tank is genius, i don't think you'll be getting fuel surge... ever :P

Do you still have the CAD drawing for your exhaust flange?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:57 pm 
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Well, the tank is foam filled also so no fuel surge so far :-).

A disadvantage with the placement is that the Cg of the car gets a little higher due to the placement on top of the diff instead of the traditional placement behind it.

Advantages are slightly better safety since the tank is not placed in the immediate area of impact if someone should hit me from behind. It is also a lightweight and simple solution with the gravity filled catch tank compared to having a separate catch tank with an extra fuel pump and all the hoses and stuff involved.

Here is the cad file for the Exhaust flange. I think that many companies doing lasercutting will take the step format. Just let me know if you need another format.

Attachment:
Suzuki_G13B_Exhaust_Manifold_Flange.zip [34.01 KIB]
Downloaded 390 times


I have an extra flange left since I made mine. Lasercut from 10mm ordinary steel (not stainless). Price is 40USD + shipping, but I fear that including the shipping cost from sweden to US it might not be worth it compared to ordering one locally. Just send me a PM with your address if it sounds interesting and I will check the exact shipping cost.

/Peter


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:54 am 
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Cheers peter! Thats going to save me a few hours with some calipers at the cad machine :)

I'm actually in the UK so shipping wouldn't be too bad, but I'm planning on getting one made in 316 stainless, as the whole system on mine is going to hang out the side of the bodywork, its best i take the plunge instead of using mild.

I'm also going to be placing my tank above the diff (just waiting for it to be welded). I thought it was a fair trade off between CG and front to back weight distribution, i'm not a huge fan of putting the tank behind the rear axle! So the only option is on the axle line... ish.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:47 pm 
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Here is my Swift engined seven at a slalom event. Still the old 150bhp engine though. I have not finished the build of the new one yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K25bHbiyiPE

/Peter


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:20 am 
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Short update on from this summers activities.

Made a rollcage for the car and Painted the glassfibre parts.

Also visited one Trackday event and a couple of slalom events.

It was raining more or less the whole trackday so it was rather slippery, and also without a windshield and a roof the driver tends to be pretty soaked. It dried up at the end of the day, but then the headgasket blew :-(.

The car has a tendency to oversteer so one project for the winter is to manufacture an anti roll bar for the front suspension. That should make the car more neutral and less scary to drive (Also improving the odds of still being here at all next winter. Loosing the backend in a high speed turn is not something I ever want to experience if I can avoid it).

I think the slalom events are ideal to sort out the supension for the car. You can test the limit, and there is nothing to hit when you go over it.

I am also still working on the new engine. Will hopefully have it finished by this spring.

Slalom:
Under braking.

Image

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oops.
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Trackday:
Bonnet is off to le the heat out. The Swift engine is in there!

Image

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Image


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:01 am 
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Location: camano Island, Washington
looks alot like formula VEE

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:19 am 
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The car is a so called Locost (in spite of the name unfortunately not so low cost though). It is a homebuilt car very similar to the Colin Chapman designed Lotus Seven. Many Locosts are powered by Ford engines, but I think the Swift engine in combination with the Samurai gearbox is a light combo, and it gives a reasonable power output for a 650 kg car, especially with the turbo.

The original Seven looked something like this:
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seven1.jpg
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There are also several manufacturers of Lotus seven clones in different flavours.

Caterham, that is considered the genuine stuff since they bought the drawings and right to manufacture the Seven from Lotus a long time ago:
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Donkevoort a little more developed:
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Also there are an infinite number of kit manufacturers like Westfield and Robin hood etc. All resembling the orignial Lotus Seven to a more or less extent.

The formula VEE is a pure racing car and probably both lighter and faster than my car (but not so much :D ).

/Peter


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2011 5:05 pm 
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Location: manchester, england
hey pelle17b, just signed up after reading about your build. i have reciently bought a locost haynes built chassis and just found my self a swift gti engine. dont suppose you can give me any pointers can you? im aiming to get a small 120bhp to the wheels to start with. any ideas?

also, using the sj/sami box, did the gear stick come out in a nice place on the car or have you had to get some sort of extention made up?

last thing, i will be running the standard dissy for time being, what wiring will i need to get with engine? will i need the engine loom, ecu or can it be done with out? not looking for a stand alone ecu just yet.


cheers
chris


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:30 pm 
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Well as for 120 BHP you might go the turbo or the NA route. There is plenty of info on this forum about tuning the G13B engines.

The gearstick will end to far from where you want it (unless you have very very long arms). A linkage will be needed.

As for the wiring i do not know. I have only used the engines mechanical parts and a Megasquirt ECU. I have never even seen a Stock Swift ECU or the wiring.


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:33 pm 
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So here is an update on the engine build:

The aim for the new engine is about 200 reliable bhp. It is based on a G13B MKII block. Compression will be 8.6:1.

The block is O-ringed and partly grout filled
Forged pistons
H-profile rods
New bearings
0.5mm oversize ss valves and bronze valve guides.
Cams are 200/335 (@ 0.050" lift)
All sharp edges are removed from the combustion chambers.
Dry sump oil system using a two stage scavenge pump, and a Suzuki 1.6l oil-pump for pressure.
Turbo will be a TD04-14T vrom a Volvo S40 2.0

First out is the head:

Some work to the ports:
Image

DIY built flow bench, borrowed from a friend. Surprisingly accurate results between measurements!
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About to change valve guides. Don't tell my wife!
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One clean MKII block:
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Crank has been checkad for straightness, and dimensions. Slight modification to oil holes:
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Modified the block for piston oil cooling jets:
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Torque plate for boring the block:
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Block bored to 75mm skimmed and o-ringed:
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Crank, trigger wheel and drive pulley for the scavenge pump:
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Reinforcement for the crank caps:
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Pistons and rods:
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Drew a new oil tray for the dry sump system:
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Manufactured it:
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Will be reusing the VAG COPs from the old engine.
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Welded the oil filler cap shut. I fill oil in the oil tank for the dry sump instead:
Image

Some stuff that might come in handy:
Image

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Bottom end built:
Image

Image


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 5:06 pm 
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Hi Pete,

I like what you are doing with your engine.
I'm in the process of making dry sump after making CAD but you already have it.
Do you think you can send me your CAD file?
I will pm you my e-mail address!
Oh also, where did you get your con rods from?

I like your oil squirters. I'm getting a set from Juke 1.6 Turbo engine, soon.

Thanks in advance!

Atchi


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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 11:50 am 
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Here is the Oil Tray flange as a step file. Two of the holes at the rear of the engine are about 1mm off, but it can be corrected with a file in 30 seconds so it is not worth the effort of updating the cad file.

Note that the flange is for a dry sump tray so it has no hole to attach the oil pickup. It is also made for a G16 oil pump with a hole for a crank sensor. The crank sensor hole should be removed if a stock G13B oil pump is used.

BR Peter

Attachment:
Suz_G13B_5mm_OilTrayFlange.zip [15.36 KIB]
Downloaded 328 times


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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 4:02 pm 
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hi peter,

i really like your dry sump.

is there another weldment to cover the oil pump over-pressure discharge? it doesn't appear on the cad or pic and i'm interested to see what you're doing at that spot.

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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 4:50 pm 
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I am using the engine oil pump for pressure fed from an oil tank. Kind of a low budget dry sump not to have an external pressure pump, but on the other hand the original pump is dimensioned for this engine and if it is fed oil from a tank it will not suck air and thus, work just as well or maybe better than an external one.

On the oil-in side the passage from the oil pickup is blocked and oil is fed from an oil tank to the threaded bung at the side of the pump.

On the oil-out side everything looks like stock. Overpressure valve returns the oil to the sump. It is free to flow inside the pan. The hole where the overpressure spring and small piston is placed is not where the return oil is coming from, but I added a small "cup" on the underside for any oil coming from there anyway to return to the sump, besides the air needs to be able to enter for the piston within the valve to be able to move.

Can be seen on this cad picture:

Image

There is also a two stage scavenge pump driven off the crank that evacuates oil from the tray and pumps it into the oil tank. This is described earlier in the thread.

/Peter


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