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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:24 am 
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Location: Roumania
Mine also has copper ceramic pads :)
I don't have many driveshafts , that kinda worries me .
Is there a big difference between a normal daikin disc and the copper puck thing in terms of friction power? what i'm really asking is , could the copper disc help me in getting a better time on the hillclimb? or is it more for circuit and rally type of racing?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:20 am 
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In real times it won't help you, the sprung organic clutch plates have a small cushion effect when drive is immediately applied, I met a grp N racer from way back who broke more than 7 driveshafts before he figured it out and that was in a mk2 which has 1mm thicker axles than a mk1 gti, for the amount of hp you are making the daiken heavy duty pressure plate(pink) and standard clutch plate will be fine, I am onto my 2nd one now, got 5 1/2 years and 50 plus events out of the first one, however for t3 ragtop he may need something stronger to deal with the mid range torque of the turbo powarrrr


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:01 am 
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and the midrange torque of the turbo3 was the reason i wanted to try the different clutch disc. i don't really get much clutch slippage off the line, my clutch slips as the turbo boost comes on.

the grip force bladed clutch plate has a spring loaded center hub like a standard friction disc which should help with shock loading, but we'll see how this deal plays out. i've never used one of these before.

in my work as an r&d engineer, i had long noticed how difficult it is to get people who have worked in a particular industry, building things a certain way for years, to buy into a new design or new materials. they have a mind set like, "we've always done it this way or that way." i figured that i might as well pay my money and take my chance on something new when it came to this clutch set.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:34 pm 
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Location: Roumania
Thank you for the advice .
So, now I'm looking for a pink pressure plate that I'll use with the normal disc on the lightened flywheel.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Location: Roumania
Here's the new , used parts.
What are your opinions?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:19 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:34 am
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Location: Roumania
Because of some family problems I wasn't able to move forward this winter.
Things are starting to settle down so I begun building my new engine.
I started out with buying a second hand engine from Germany without knowing it's condition but the good thing is that it had arp head bolts a new 4 puck clutch kit just like the one posted above but in like new condition.
I'm amazed by the fact that my last engine's bearings are in good order with some minor scuffs (thank you MOS2) , 3 of the rods are ok and 3 piston rings are ok and while i checked the parts i found my two missing valves down in the oilpan :D
Being a very low budget racecar i want bounce some ideeas off you guys.
I have found rings from a previous build but only for 3 pistons and I have rings for 3 more pistons from my last engine :
1. Do you think I can pair them up 2 pistons with one type of rings and 2 with another type , considering the gaps are the same? would it they seal differently?
2. I have 2 sets of main bearings ,one is oem suzuki and the other ones are is ACL normal bearings, using plastigage the read the same value, what should i use OEM or ACL?
My readout so far on the clearance for the main bearings is :
F'rom the flywheel to the front engine 0.05mm 0.038mm 0.038 0.038 and 0.05mm

I'm shooting for a 12:1 compression ratio using 3tech cams 222/365cams on Dellorto 40's IS it a little bit to high? should i settle for a lower compression ratio , 11:1 for example?

How many degrees of sparka dvance do you guys use 32-34?

Thanks


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:01 pm 
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Location: Sydney
Hi ROV, 12.0:1 compression should be fine with such a large pair of cams, be sure to check cranking compression after run-in, should be around the 210PSi to 250PSi range. Be sure to run good fuel.
Both the factory and the standard ACL bearings are an aluminium layer over a steel base so either are good to use, the G13B does not have bearing issues and has a good oiling system so choose either way, both are good. Go with the tightest clearances so you get less oil loss in the crankcase when oil is hot.
Using old rings is a bit rough but is OK if the gaps are good and the face is unmarked. These factory rings are steel with a chromium nitride coating and are pre lapped at time of manufacture. Be sure to perform a leak-down set after assembly and then again after run-in. These rings like a smooth hone finish look to use 280 Grit to 320 Grit stones with a 500Grit plateau hone after.
For the best timing you should run a timing loop. To do this you will need to find a long straight hill, a GPS and a stop watch. Set timing low and go for a run, log both time and speed for three runs. Advance timing 2 degrees and perform 3 more runs. Keep advancing timing a log results until the car no longer improves, then go back to last timing setting, done. For most consistent results I start the test from a roll in first gear at 3,000RPM past an object on the side of the road.

Good luck with the build and remember to triple clean all components, particularly the oil galleries and use a torque wrench.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:53 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:34 am
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Location: Roumania
Thank you very much for your advice.
Although the picture might induce the idea of dirt , I really do clean all my parts for assembly .
This year I'll go to an abandoned air strip just outside my town to setup the engine and fine tune it but I haven't thought it through with a gps and all.

I use torque wrenches all the time during my builds and would like to torque this one down to 70 nm head bolt , 40 nm on the rod bolts and 60nm on the mains.
Does that sound good in your opinion?

I need all the input I can get on this project.

I machined 0.7mm on the head and 1 mm from the block. The pistons are oem and are milled on the sides 0.8 mm . That should give me aprox 1 mm or quench distance to aid in the fuel mixture and prevent detonation.
Do you guys think it's a good idea? just experimenting on a very low budget.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:32 pm 
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Location: Sydney
Ha, not implying dirt at all, sorry for coming across like that.

For the quench, I'd go a bit tighter. 1.0mm or 40thou is generally used for iron block, larger bore engines running forged pistons. Our engines are much smaller in the bore so dont suffer as much piston rock (vertical crown extention) at TDC as say a 4in bore engine so can run closer. Your engine has the STD cast piston so runs closer piston to bore clearance than a forged piston so suffers less piston rock a TDC so less vertical crown extention. The G13B has an alloy block which expands much more at operating temperature so can run much tighter than an iron block.

I'd go with 20 to 25 thou quench if the piston to bore is under 2thou.

Just dont rev the motor to the fuel cut when its stone cold as the pistons are cold (loose in the bore) so rock more and the engine block is at its shortest :wink: .

For torque settings go with the OEM figures I'd say.

What valve springs are you going to run ROV?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:45 am 
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Location: Roumania
I use standard valve springs. They work well up to about 9000rpm
When I get some cash I will upgrade to ss valves and better valve springs.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:55 am 
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OK, that should work good, the factory springs are a pretty good piece so stick with them but I'd shim them a bit closer to coil bind if spining to 9K. The shim is to stave off spring surge and float.
The factory valves are quite good also, note the black finish on the valve stem's, thats a nitride surface treatment for improved hardness and wear resistance, very nice valve for sure.
Dropped valves in most engines are not due to weak valves but poor spring pressure, especially exhaust valves, not a well known fact.
Dont be afraid to spin it to 9k, just shim the valve springs first.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:16 am 
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Location: Roumania
Do you have a crystal ball? because I was thinking of shims today before I read your post. :) funny thing.
I have used shims before in some Renault engines with good results(no problems) I guess but those F type engines didn't rev nearly as high as the G13b.
I would like to know what kind of shims should i use...thickness .
Do you think 1 mm would be enough? I should check at what length the coils bind.

Also , i need to enlarge the ports on the head a bit , cut the valve guides so that they are flush with the port shape.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:22 pm 
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Location: Sydney
Just shim them up while staying away from coil bind and thats all you need to do. Be sure to place the shim under the factory spring seat/locator, that is place it between the OEM spring seat/locator and the head.

Regarding the cut down guide, I would not do this personally. While these motors are not hard on the guides in general so can be cut down, the Bowl depth is very deep in these heads placing the end of the guide an unusually long way from the valve seat. What this does is exagerate the guide clearance at the valve seat allowing the valve heads to contact the seat randomly causing seat/face wear.

I'd just port around the guide boss either side, forming a wing profile,

Regarding testing/setting timing loop, start at a roll, say 3000rpm in first gear, I drive over a particular road reflector glued to the roads centre line and start the stop watch. Run the car up to your preferd shift RPM in each gear all the way to say the end of 3rd or 4th gear (depends on your chosen hill). Stop the stop watch as you pass a particular road marker (for me it is the last lane merge arrow painted on the road surface as it passes out of view under the nose of the car) and glance at the sat nav speed, log time and speed. repeat a few times to avoid errors.

After you have settled on the lowest timing for the fastest time and speed you can do the same tests above for the air/fuel carb tests, richest AFR's for fasted time and speed.
Dont get caught and dont kill anyone 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:34 am
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Location: Roumania
Rough shape of the head .
Cleand the intake , blended those horrible exhaust valve guides and changed the combustion chamber a little bit.
I hope it's finished by the end of the week so it can get a good valve job and another milling to clean un all the little dings on the surface.
What are your thoughts?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:41 pm 
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Location: Roumania
I hope it's worth it


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:56 am 
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Location: Roumania
On this episode of Dr.G, we finally discovered what was the cause of the catastrophic failure of last year's engine.
It seems that one of the retainers on one of the exhaust valves simply couldn't hold one at those rpms and it let go of the valve . :(
I think it was a flaw in the retainer material or something.
Now I'm a little bit less worried about valve float.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:52 am 
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Location: Sydney
Hi ROV, have you got a photo of the broken retainer as well as the valve locks and valve tip/lock grooves?
I'm intrigued with what you have done to the piston crowns, did they start off with domes or are they originally the standard flat top GT/GTI piston?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:34 am 
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Location: Roumania
Hello Abi,
Sorry but I don't have a photo of the retainer but I'll get one next week,as for the pistons,
they are oem GTI pistons.
I thought of this as a budget version of Cultus type pistons or high dome pistons. The block is milled 1 mm and the sides of the pistons are milled 0.8mm .the valve pockets are deeper by 1mm.
This combination together with the milling of the head by 1 mm should give aprox 12:1 compression ratio while using a relatively flat piston . I tried to make the pistons as smooth as possible to limit sharp edges ,same goes for the combustion chamber. About the mirror like polish, I really don't know if it helps that much but I read old books that said that mirror like polish will strengthening the piston surface by eliminating possible cracks plus it reflect heat better keeping the piston body cooler and the combustion temp higher, by how many degrees I don't know.
Today I finished the piston polish and I check the piston ring gap for every cyl. I started with 3 sets of piston rings , 2 almost new and 1 from an oem engine.
I settled for 0.45mm fire ring gap and 0.35 on the compression ring.
Didn't get a chance to weigh my pistons because i couldn't find my digital scale :( bummer. but I'll do it before the final install so that the weight will be within 0.5 grams for fully assembled piston/rod with bearing and all.
Next week I'll be installing the crank pistons rods and mounting the block on the car plus I'll take some pictures of the modified head.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:26 am 
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Location: Roumania
Finished the port and polish and 3 angle valve job ...2 angle on the exhaust the third was lost during the porting :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:40 pm 
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Location: Roumania
Assembled the engine block today.
I got the piston+rod and nuts bearings to 792 Grams and within 0.5 grams between the four pistons.
Tomorrow I'll assemble de head and mount the engine on the car. I hope I can start it tomorrow because the next hillclimb is on the 30th this month. Maybe i'll dyno it using a gps thing that a friend got for us.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:53 am 
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Location: Sydney
Looking good ROV, I like your trick with the piston crowns, might use that myself on the next build :D


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:34 pm 
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Location: Roumania
here are the updates...

Finished the cylinder head, ported polished and chamber mods + polished valves and guides blended in.
The head got a 3 angle valve job.
Assembled the clutch with the new flywheel (hope it's balanced well) And added another shim to the bypass valve on the oil pump.
Torqued the rod bolts to 55 nm and the main to 70nm . The head will probably get 80nm final torque value.
Mounted the intake with the Dellorto carbs with a fresh set of gaskets on them. the intake part took like forever because I had to align everything from the trumpet to the valve. The intake gasket had to be modified again because it has a larger diameter than the last head .
The intake measures 32 cm from the trumpet entry to the intake valve.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:52 am 
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Location: Roumania
Managed to assemble the engine during the hottest days ever seen 43 celsius :(
Here's a little video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq46njrIHSs


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:19 pm 
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Location: Roumania
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivDgvW6u0NA


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:30 pm 
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Man , that sounds pretty damn healthy. :) What rpm do you shift at?

Is that Bucovat next to Timisoara?


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