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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:54 pm 
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i have an 89gti g13b twin cam and i was thinking about doing some performance work to it. i already have done a 2'' exhaust and it made the car a bit faster the car currently is stock motorwise besides the exhaust. and the car pulls well from about 3000-5500 and then it starts dying out power wise. some of you on here has superfly's cams and i just wanted some feedback on the difference the cams made in your cars. i dont wanna lose too much low end torque cause i heard the cams are supposed to increase your top end. does it sacrifice some bottom end? oh yea and if anyone has one how much difference does a genie header make cause my brother is about to put one on his 94 gt what do you guys think about that?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:15 am 
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OK, I am not really an engine guy, more of a lo-cost handling improvement guy, but my 9 month old is napping and I have nothing better to do than pretend like I know something :roll:

You say the car pulls from 3000 to 5500 but don't say where the power falls off--I am guessing about 6800, because that's where the stock fuel maps start going conservatively rich to protect the motor, then redline comes at 7300. That's all in the stock tune--with a proper tune that 1. raises your redline and 2. sets your target AFRs for best power all the way up to redline, you'll find the car will keep pulling all the way up.

I say "tune" but what I mean is the information on your ECU's chip. A dyno tuner can alter the fuel and ignition maps and burn a chip to perfectly suit your car and where you want your peak torque and power to occur, but that's expensive. Another route is to chip your ECU with a generic tune like a Toms II or other perfomance chip (Sandro has them on sale right now) but be careful--I would highly recommend getting a wideband AFR meter before you do so because it is possible that a chip meant to work with most cars may still cause your car to run dangerously lean in part of the powerband.

I think the best advice is to be mindful of where you want your peak power to occur and choose parts and tuning to match what you want. For example, you can make much more total power by shifting the power band higher, and yes, cams are one way to do this. Yes, this also does come at the expensive of some low end grunt, but if you drive the car to keep the revs up (which is all part of the fun in my opinion) then the trade off might be worth it and there are things you can do to help the motor spin up quickly (underdrive pulley, lightened flywheel). Likewise, just because you choose to tune for mid-range punch (I don't think there's much grunt below 2000 rpm no matter what you do to these motors) doesn't mean you can't improve your top end as well. For example, the genie header you mention is a 4-2-1 design, which improves midrange, but it will still flow better than stock so the top end ill improve as well, just not as much as if you went with a 4-1 header. I haven't tried this combo, so I'll let others with experience chime in here, but I am guessing that aggressive cams and a genie header would work ok, but wouldn't be the best way to get the most out of either part.

Here's some good info on what's in your car's stock tune:

http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=54431&start=75#p420808

Back up in the thread and check http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=45878&p=346378 for information on modding your stock ECU, or think about piggyback or standalone ECU systems to simply replace it and give you full control.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:46 am 
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My experience with cams hasnt been on a gt(yet), but have done a cam on a 1.3 16V and a 1.0 turbo. Both of these applications seemed to lose little if any bottom end, yet pulled signifiacantly harder from 2500 up. Seat of the pants, it felt about the same at low speed, just hit a point and then picked up a lot faster. It wasnt a 'maybe its quicker' thing, its was a pretty big difference on both. Just my $0.02, see what some gt guys have to say.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:32 pm 
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I haven't got cams in my car as of yet. Im having a spare head rebuilt at the moment with 210/340 cams. However I do have a genie header on my car. Its a 4-1 setup. I found that it opens the car up better in the high revs however I didn't lose any bottom end either. It also makes the car sound slightly more aggressive. I'd recommend doing the whole exhaust to match the genie header though.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:23 pm 
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hmmm. it sounds like the cams might have more benefits than the flaw side. teeth you have experience doing tunes? what program do you use for the tuning? and is it a hard thing to do or is it not as hard as it appears. and PeAvS definitely let me know how the 210/340 cams affect your car after you get the head put back on. and my brother's header is a 4-2-1 he was thinking a 2'' straight pipe that splits into dual exhaust coming out the back. cause the 2'' worked well on my car.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:29 pm 
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After a few bolt ons on my '91 GTi I decided to go with some cams. After the cams got installed and testing the car I wondered why I haven't done the cams as a FIRST mod!
They are that amazing!

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1991-GTi: JE 75mm 11:1 pistons,Ported head, Single UD pulley (OCC),Sandros chip,Aluminium flywheel,3tech 222/365 cams, Cultus headers,Cultus IM,50mm tb,Crane cams adjustable cam gears,Apex suspension, 4.39fd GB.
1989-GTi: 3Tech 210/340 Cams,Cultus IM, B&G springs, TD04L turbo, Apexi SAFC, Suzukird UD pulley, Circuitse7en dual boost controller, AEM wideband, AEM water / meth injection kit, HKS bov.
2001-Altezza AS200: Stock.-sold
2003-EVO7 GT-A
Aruba "one happy island".


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:45 pm 
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I was just checking my car over and I made a mistake earlier. I have 4-2-1 genie header. I won't be installing the head for a little while. Its going onto the engine im building.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:05 pm 
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PeAvS wrote:
I haven't got cams in my car as of yet. Im having a spare head rebuilt at the moment with 210/340 cams. However I do have a genie header on my car. Its a 4-1 setup. I found that it opens the car up better in the high revs however I didn't lose any bottom end either. It also makes the car sound slightly more aggressive. I'd recommend doing the whole exhaust to match the genie header though.


I sent you a PM about your head, but you never got back to me.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:44 pm 
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@Shingoku

I am not an "experienced" tuner but that hasn't stopped me from learning. I use Tunerpro http://www.tunerpro.net/ which is (I think) relatively simple.

If you want to figure out how to use it, there are Swift .bin files (contents of a chip) and .xdf files (ECU definition that interprets what the .bin contains) out there for you to open and play with--check out http://www.rhinopower.organd look up your ecu.

Unfortunately, though Rhinoman has done a lot of work on the .xdf, to modify certain parameters correctly it's helpful to have another simple hex editor program like this one http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~prewett/hexedit/ but that's also free and easy to use.

Or you can do piggyback or stand alone, but all the same principles apply. At minimum, you can use a wideband AFR meter and some basic rules of thumb to get AFRs in the ball park. If you have access to a dyno to determine AFR values that are making the most power precisely, even better.

Another quick note--I stated earlier that "aggressive" cams and a 4-2-1 might not be the best combo. That's probably true, but what I really should have said is that you need cams that are profiled to "hit" when everything else (header, intake, ignition tables) is tuned to "hit". Get cams that are designed to open the valves widest when that Genie is scavenging the hardest and you'll fly.

Superf1y won't steer you wrong.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:11 pm 
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what inda of cams are your running instant shine? is it the 210/340 i see in your sig? and teeth imma check out that tunerpro and see how it works. how exactly does the chip come into play in all that? like if i just cammed it but didnt put the chip?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:08 am 
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shingoku wrote:
how exactly does the chip come into play in all that? like if i just cammed it but didnt put the chip?


Cams will make a difference even without tuning for them for sure, but you won't take full advantage of anything (cams, intake, header, whatever) without tuning for it--that's why I suggest that getting setup to tune your fuel tables at minimum first, as there is a lot of power left on the table just in the tune as well. To some extent it's a cost benefit thing. Are you really going to stop with cams? Do you care whether you get the most out of them?

Burning chips or using an emulator is only one way to do it and I feel that I should warn you that most of the more experienced tuners on the forum are doing it with piggyback or stand alone engine management systems instead. But modding the stock ECU by altering the chip or "spoofing" the chip with an Ostrich emulator does work too.

I hate to go on about this because I am actually kind of a n00b in this department myself, but honestly the first step is not cams or tuning, it's getting a wideband AFR so you know what's going on. Without a wideband you are pretty much just whistling in the dark. When you know how much fuel your system is getting at different rpm and load ranges, then you know what you need to do to optimize it. In some cases you don't need to tune at all and you can even out your fuel curve with an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, but you don't know anything until you've got a meter.

That's the wisdom passed on to me, and I believe this is a good way to go. I thought I didn't want to get too far into engine tuning, and that intake, header, pulley and chip were "enough". Enough, it turns out, to not just make less power than I should, but to actually ruin my motor if I hadn't made changes. I chose the wrong chip (not necessarily a "bad" one, just the WRONG one for my setup) based on some noise elsewhere in the forum and would never have known it without the meter.

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No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Spanish Inquisition Racing chip burning service--build yourself a custom chip!
http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=57216


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:15 pm 
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shingoku wrote:
what inda of cams are your running instant shine? is it the 210/340 i see in your sig? and teeth imma check out that tunerpro and see how it works. how exactly does the chip come into play in all that? like if i just cammed it but didnt put the chip?


210/340 in the 91gti and 222/365 in the 89gti.
Both from 3tech.

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1991-GTi: JE 75mm 11:1 pistons,Ported head, Single UD pulley (OCC),Sandros chip,Aluminium flywheel,3tech 222/365 cams, Cultus headers,Cultus IM,50mm tb,Crane cams adjustable cam gears,Apex suspension, 4.39fd GB.
1989-GTi: 3Tech 210/340 Cams,Cultus IM, B&G springs, TD04L turbo, Apexi SAFC, Suzukird UD pulley, Circuitse7en dual boost controller, AEM wideband, AEM water / meth injection kit, HKS bov.
2001-Altezza AS200: Stock.-sold
2003-EVO7 GT-A
Aruba "one happy island".


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:36 pm 
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how do the two compare between the 210/340 vs the 225/365? and by the way teeth that afr meter i might look into could you post a link for some good ones that i can look at?

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1994 Suzuki Swift GT (My Brothers Car) Who is actually the original owner from 1994 when our father bought the car from the suzuki dealership! 80000 orig.miles currently


Last edited by shingoku on Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:38 pm 
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shingoku, changing the lift and duration of the cams without making the needed changes to injector timing and pulsewidth to provide proper fueling is a lazy man's game.

you have to consider the entirety of the engine and mods and apply judicious tuning to support the fuel and ignition demands of the new engine.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Some reviewers have had troubles with properly grounding the one I have, but I have had great luck with it:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php

You can get them on Amazon, ebay vendors, etc..., so do some comparison shopping. The nice thing about this one is that can be used to simulate the signal from a narrowband sensor, so you can simply plug the new O2 sensor into the same bung the old one went into and run the simulated narrowband wire from the meter into the O2 wire to the ECU and run your stock ECU in closed loop with no problems.

Most of the time. Every once in a while I've found that the simulated signal is flaky, but that just means you'd best have a good open-loop tune. Also the Innovate sensors require calibration every so often, but it's an easy process, and I am not sure I would trust a meter that didn't need calibration--the main competitor is AEM, which doesn't.

There are also much more expensive meters, and I'm sure they are "better", but the MTX-L does the job and is extremely easy to install.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:38 pm 
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shingoku wrote:
how do the two compare between the 210/340 vs the 225/365? and by the way teeth that afr meter i might look into could you post a link for some good ones that i can look at?


The 210/340 ones are amazing! Ran it with sandros chip (aka 210/340 chip) for a couple of years. Fast revving and all till 8600rpm. Like I said they should have been the first mod i made to the gti engine. I think i have a vid uploaded to youtube.

The 222/365 ones looks like they are even better. I see no problem at all using them in a street car. Solid idle. Fast revving. I'm planning on getting these dailed in. The car is still not on the road cause i have to finish it (body wise). But i did a few runs and it's amazing so far.

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1991-GTi: JE 75mm 11:1 pistons,Ported head, Single UD pulley (OCC),Sandros chip,Aluminium flywheel,3tech 222/365 cams, Cultus headers,Cultus IM,50mm tb,Crane cams adjustable cam gears,Apex suspension, 4.39fd GB.
1989-GTi: 3Tech 210/340 Cams,Cultus IM, B&G springs, TD04L turbo, Apexi SAFC, Suzukird UD pulley, Circuitse7en dual boost controller, AEM wideband, AEM water / meth injection kit, HKS bov.
2001-Altezza AS200: Stock.-sold
2003-EVO7 GT-A
Aruba "one happy island".


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:38 pm 
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sounds good instant shine. im goanna definitely more than likely purchase the cams eventually. could you post the links for those videos on here i'd like to check em out? im working on fixing my fuse problem right now i posted about it in problems and fixes. and after that imma definitely start looking into performance. and teeth that afr gauge is a little pricey for a gauge. i'll browse around and see if i find something and i'll post it back here

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:26 pm 
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Teeth wrote:
Some reviewers have had troubles with properly grounding the one I have, but I have had great luck with it:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php

You can get them on Amazon, ebay vendors, etc..., so do some comparison shopping. The nice thing about this one is that can be used to simulate the signal from a narrowband sensor, so you can simply plug the new O2 sensor into the same bung the old one went into and run the simulated narrowband wire from the meter into the O2 wire to the ECU and run your stock ECU in closed loop with no problems.

Most of the time. Every once in a while I've found that the simulated signal is flaky, but that just means you'd best have a good open-loop tune. Also the Innovate sensors require calibration every so often, but it's an easy process, and I am not sure I would trust a meter that didn't need calibration--the main competitor is AEM, which doesn't.

There are also much more expensive meters, and I'm sure they are "better", but the MTX-L does the job and is extremely easy to install.


I can also suggest zeitronics it has many great features and options, plug in a display or laptop when you are ready to do some logging. ( you will need it to see what is happening and still watch the road) the base unit is quite cheap!

With that said, part of tuning is ignition timing as well! It gets abit tricky as the only really feed back is a knock sensor( or when you blow something) I know done it a couple of times

Tuning is abit of an art form you learn and feel( I have not) I tune combustion on boilers for a living and still learn things after 29 years

Yes there are base tables to start from, but they run the best right before they blow up, being a little conservative is important unless you race for a living! My idea. I do not want to rebuild every year.

Have fun be safe tune carefully or let someone else do it. My 2 cents

PS I run 210/ 340 with my turbo I think it runs great only tuned for 6-7 psi so far

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:07 am 
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wgotzman sounds good i wanted to get into tuning for ecu's and stuff eventually but i couldnt find too much information on how to do it on the web. is chipping the ecu with sandro's or toms hard to do or is it pretty straightforward?

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1994 Suzuki Swift GT (My Brothers Car) Who is actually the original owner from 1994 when our father bought the car from the suzuki dealership! 80000 orig.miles currently


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:06 pm 
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shingoku wrote:
wgotzman sounds good i wanted to get into tuning for ecu's and stuff eventually but i couldnt find too much information on how to do it on the web. is chipping the ecu with sandro's or toms hard to do or is it pretty straightforward?


In regard to chipping an ecu, I have not done this before , I have a link piggy back. If you have done circuit board soldering and similar work it should not be a problem.

This does make it pretty simple to helping tune the engine better, it may not be perfect but I am sure this is what most people only want.

Looking back a full programmable ECU is what I should have done from the beginning. Tuning is always the key or problem for any thing other than chip replacement. Even with a chip you can do a little adjust with base timing to protect your self. ( or be more aggressive)

At one time someone built a board for two chip so they could switch between them, once a socket is installed its much easier.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:25 pm 
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It wasn't hard at all--I got someone who knew what they were doing to desolder my chip and solder in the socket for me :roll:

I wouldn't try it yourself unless you are wicked good with desoldering tools. Thankfully, experts are not that hard to find.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Hmmm im really considering the chip and the cam. However now it boils down to 210/340 or 225/365

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1994 Suzuki Swift GT (My Brothers Car) Who is actually the original owner from 1994 when our father bought the car from the suzuki dealership! 80000 orig.miles currently


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:16 pm 
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shingoku wrote:
Hmmm im really considering the chip and the cam. However now it boils down to 210/340 or 225/365

It tuff and enough is never enough, hence my turbo.

Do not expect the gas mileage to stay the same!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:57 pm 
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wgotzman wrote:
At one time someone built a board for two chip so they could switch between them, once a socket is installed its much easier.


that was vela.

it was a neat solution. push a switch and you had stock tune with the attendant fuel economy. push it again and you deleted the rev limiter and ran on the "hot" mapping.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:28 am 
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I can probably answer your questions.
I would do the header. It's worthwhile. Also get rid of the stock filter/intake and put a cone filter on there ASAP.
A 50 mm TB will make a difference in a good way as well.
As for the cams, with a 210/340, you will have a rough idle and your power band will be shifted higher. You will lose some torque down low, but what you lose on the bottom, you will get back on the top even more so. It changes the personality of the motor completely, where it becomes so much more aggressive in the mid to upper ranges. The 222/365 will do the same thing, but even more dramatically. Some want that, some don't.
It sounds to me like you would probably prefer a 200/335 intake and 210/340 exhaust profiles. It will pull hard to 7500-8000 RPM, while having better low end power than the straight 210/340's and giving up very little everywhere else. They will work well on the stock computer, and even better with the 210/340 chip.

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