TeamSwift

Home of the Suzuki mini-compacts ! Your Home for all things Suzuki Swift, Geo Metro, Holden Barina, Chevy Sprint, Pontiac Firefly, and Suzuki Cultus. TeamSwift is a technical performance oriented community!
It is currently Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:55 am

Underbody braces, turbos and more!

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 pm
Posts: 53
Location: RedState4Ever
Recently my '97 1.3L TBI (110k miles) has been stalling during operation and/or failing to start. After a stall, it may take up to 10 minutes before the motor will start.

I checked that there was spark (which there was) and took the opportunity to replace the plugs, cap & rotor. I also replaced the fuel pump and checked that the fuel filter (which was replaced two years ago) was not clogged. I started the car and it ran for about four minutes before dying. This continued with the motor sometimes restarting or taking a good 10-20 minutes before it would start.

While it was failing to start, I took the air cleaner off and watched the injector while a friend cranked the motor. There was no fuel coming out of the injector - even at full throttle. I checked the electrical connections for the injector and the ground on the throttle body but there was no change.

Before I order a new injector, I'd like to eliminate any other culprits that could be causing the injector to fail. Any ideas?


Last edited by BlueState4Ever on Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:50 am 
Offline
Island Inbreeder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
I will take a shot RUSTY GROUND.!...... Really check all your ground straps
even the one to the ECM

can I tell you a story about your car.?

The injector on your car must get a small (very small) voltage sig from your ECM to fire
after the ECM receives a signal from your crank sensor or distributor that say yup engine is rotating go ahead and fire injector......
If your ground straps or rusty the signal will be intermittent if any
best way to check if your injector is firing use a timing light shine it at the TB when it flashes you should see a small spray
if you can't see it in the flash then you know your injector is not firing.!

can you start it with Starting fluid.? will it run at all if any with starting fuild.?
.
Do you have any Codes from ECM.?
.
These cars are prone to electrical gremblins I,E catch in fire little stuff like that.
but with alittle maintnance they will go long and nothing on this car is very difficult to fix....
anyone with a computer
and basic hand tools can keep them in working order
.
Because I'm a giver
.look these over see if this helps
.
http://metroxfi.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... t_1997.pdf
.
.....and because I'm a lazy S,O,B don't want to do the leg work.... The mullett man has it going on
.
ECM codes
.
http://geometroforum.com/topic/638390/1/
.

.


.
.
.

_________________
.

t3 ragtop wrote:
the 3 banger isn't at all a "grenade." it's a tough little son of a bitch doing a big job. respect it.
suprf1y wrote:
I didn't save anything.Vehicles are to me, like little boys are to Tommy.Toys to be abused for my own personal pleasure.
jrjd wrote:
"Driving a Swift GTi is like driving a bike in your house".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 pm
Posts: 53
Location: RedState4Ever
I got a second pair of eyes to watch for a spray from the injector at WOT and they also saw nothing. We noticed that the butterfly valve was dry after these attempts. I have a timing light so I can it another try and see if I can spot a spray.

No codes from the scanner but that is likely due to the battery going dead after all the attempts to start it this last time around.

I sprayed starter fluid in the throttle body and was able to get it to turn over but not start.

I'll go through all the grounds once more.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:19 pm
Posts: 344
Location: vancouver island, canada
If it wont start on strater fluid more then likley ignition related. Remember. You only need 3 things for an engine To fire. Fuel, compression and spark.


and seeing how its intermittent. I woukd follow jv&s and check every ground from the rad support to the back seat. Especially the ecm and intake ground.

_________________
92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 12:48 am
Posts: 170
Location: San Diego CA
Holding WOT while starting will trick the computer into flood mode and it won't spray fuel, after you stop cranking the motor does the fuel pump prime on?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 pm
Posts: 53
Location: RedState4Ever
pvr007 wrote:
Holding WOT while starting will trick the computer into flood mode and it won't spray fuel, after you stop cranking the motor does the fuel pump prime on?


That was an error. I never started with WOT. I just pumped it while a friend watched the injector for any spray. Nothing.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 pm
Posts: 53
Location: RedState4Ever
redneck racing wrote:
If it wont start on strater fluid more then likley ignition related. Remember. You only need 3 things for an engine To fire. Fuel, compression and spark.


and seeing how its intermittent. I woukd follow jv&s and check every ground from the rad support to the back seat. Especially the ecm and intake ground.


It turned over and stumbled on the starter fluid. I didn't continue spraying to keep it going as that was confirmation enough there was spark. I'm checking grounds shortly.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 pm
Posts: 53
Location: RedState4Ever
UPDATE: Grounds are fine. No corrosion and good contacts.

Question: Would an ECM failure cause intermittent stalls / no starting? How about a bad Map Sensor?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 12:48 am
Posts: 170
Location: San Diego CA
Have you tested the injector with an led? That's the only real way to test it, a multimeter won't pick it up as its to fast, get an led and check for pulsing while cranking, if there's pulsing then disconnect the fuel line and make sure there's good amount of gas coming in, if there's gas but no gas comes out from injector then it could be a stuck preassure regulator or clogged injector. Does the car misfire? Is the check engine light on? Crank it and see if the camshaft moves, if not then you might have a broken timing belt.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 12:48 am
Posts: 170
Location: San Diego CA
BlueState4Ever wrote:
UPDATE: Grounds are fine. No corrosion and good contacts.

Question: Would an ECM failure cause intermittent stalls / no starting? How about a bad Map Sensor?


An ecm either is dead or it works, you state it starts once in a while so that means your ecm is ok. Have to done a compression test on the engine, it should eliminate blown head gasket or bad exhaust valves.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 pm
Posts: 53
Location: RedState4Ever
pvr007 wrote:
Have you tested the injector with an led? That's the only real way to test it, a multimeter won't pick it up as its to fast, get an led and check for pulsing while cranking, if there's pulsing then disconnect the fuel line and make sure there's good amount of gas coming in, if there's gas but no gas comes out from injector then it could be a stuck preassure regulator or clogged injector. Does the car misfire? Is the check engine light on? Crank it and see if the camshaft moves, if not then you might have a broken timing belt.


Car will occasionally start and runs smoothly before dying. I'm going to try the timing light method to check for spray from the injector.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:04 pm 
Offline
Island Inbreeder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
no codes That is very odd
Gound look good.? OK?
I read your post and you say some time it runs and some times it doesnot That is Wiring issue
if it starts and the stumble i would look a the TPS
You injector needs 28lb-32lb to operate properlly
If this was my car My next move would be to disconect the battery and remove /Inspect/Clean the "Sandwich"
that is the Fuse block located under drive side dash look in all conectors for burn scorch marks
Let me look for a picture standby..............


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:22 pm 
Offline
Island Inbreeder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
just because the Grounds/ wiring harness look good doesn't mean they are clean and dry
.

.
This car had run issues and headlights issues I was able to bring this car back and drove it daily
.

.
Image
.
Image
.
Image
.
Image
.
.
.
.

also go throught the Boxes located just behind the battery your fuel pump relay and start relay are in there
might be loose and or dirty...........JV&S
.
Image
.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 pm
Posts: 53
Location: RedState4Ever
jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
no codes That is very odd
Gound look good.? OK?
I read your post and you say some time it runs and some times it doesnot That is Wiring issue
if it starts and the stumble i would look a the TPS
You injector needs 28lb-32lb to operate properlly
If this was my car My next move would be to disconect the battery and remove /Inspect/Clean the "Sandwich"
that is the Fuse block located under drive side dash look in all conectors for burn scorch marks
Let me look for a picture standby..............


No codes as the battery went dead while I was cranking. In my experience it usually takes a good day or two of driving before I will see codes and since I'm not able to keep it running I'm out of luck. A professional code scanner at a shop could probably do it's own diagnostics but that would mean towing it.

It does not start and stumble. It starts and runs fine then after a minute dies and will not start for at least 15-20 minutes. When it does restart, the same thing happens.

I was able to start it just a few minutes ago and watched the injector while it idled for a minute but I couldn't see the spray.

I will also checked and clean the grounds.

I will check the fuse sandwich.

Could the ECM or any of the sensors be shutting everything down?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:19 pm
Posts: 344
Location: vancouver island, canada
If it was a sensor then there would be a code stored. Next time its running then dies do not turn it off. Check for codes immediately.

_________________
92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 12:48 am
Posts: 170
Location: San Diego CA
Do you use a computer to read the codes or the flashing cel way?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:23 am 
Offline
Island Inbreeder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:56 pm
Posts: 6347
Location: Emerald city Washington
pvr007 wrote:
Do you use a computer to read the codes or the flashing cel way?

.
Fashing cel

http://geometroforum.com/topic/638390/1/
.
.
.
Back to The OP problem ....
it will run then die's and can't start for 15-20 minutes Deffinetly what they call a Hot Soak issue...or ..Heat Stressed issue

Like what you would find in a electrical connection when wire or connection gets hot the resistance
would be to high and ECM senses the high resistance value and shut it down ....
.
or a connector somewere get hot and wires loosen up in it's plastic holder then cools down wires go back together to make a connection

or resistance high TO or IN The Ignition system I,E, Dizzy, Dizzy connector,Ignition modual, Ignition Coil
(Usually the ignition modual is a go no go thing)
Coil possible.?
Pull a plug wire off any will do when cold crank the engine over check to see if you get a strong spark
after it dies and wont run
pull the same plug wire see if the spark doesnot get weaker if it does you might get lucky find a weak coil or connection in the wire to the dizzy


.
deffinetly not a fuel issue
.

if your battery is dead enought to not run the car but still might have enough minimal voltage to store codes.....

I believe you reset the ECM codes by pulling the dome light fuse ( not 100% sure on that for this year)
.
.........JV&S .. and yes my spelling is not correct it creative.!
.
.

_________________
.

t3 ragtop wrote:
the 3 banger isn't at all a "grenade." it's a tough little son of a bitch doing a big job. respect it.
suprf1y wrote:
I didn't save anything.Vehicles are to me, like little boys are to Tommy.Toys to be abused for my own personal pleasure.
jrjd wrote:
"Driving a Swift GTi is like driving a bike in your house".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 pm
Posts: 53
Location: RedState4Ever
pvr007 wrote:
Do you use a computer to read the codes or the flashing cel way?


Using this bad boy:

http://www.harborfreight.com/can-obdii-code-reader-with-multilingual-menu-98570.html


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 pm
Posts: 53
Location: RedState4Ever
jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
pvr007 wrote:
Do you use a computer to read the codes or the flashing cel way?

.
Fashing cel

http://geometroforum.com/topic/638390/1/
.
.
.
Back to The OP problem ....
it will run then die's and can't start for 15-20 minutes Deffinetly what they call a Hot Soak issue...or ..Heat Stressed issue

Like what you would find in a electrical connection when wire or connection gets hot the resistance
would be to high and ECM senses the high resistance value and shut it down ....
.
or a connector somewere get hot and wires loosen up in it's plastic holder then cools down wires go back together to make a connection

or resistance high TO or IN The Ignition system I,E, Dizzy, Dizzy connector,Ignition modual, Ignition Coil
(Usually the ignition modual is a go no go thing)


It now only runs for about 30 seconds before dying.

jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
Coil possible.?
Pull a plug wire off any will do when cold crank the engine over check to see if you get a strong spark
after it dies and wont run
pull the same plug wire see if the spark doesnot get weaker if it does you might get lucky find a weak coil or connection in the wire to the dizzy


I swapped out the coil for another one and no change but I will try this test just to confirm. I also opened up the sandwich and everything looks clean.


jaguar,vettes&sprints wrote:
.
deffinetly not a fuel issue
.

if your battery is dead enought to not run the car but still might have enough minimal voltage to store codes.....

I believe you reset the ECM codes by pulling the dome light fuse ( not 100% sure on that for this year)
.
.........JV&S .. and yes my spelling is not correct it creative.!
.
.


My battery is weak. It's about four years old and I get about five cranks attempting to restart before I notice it becoming weaker (dome light dims). My code scan tool will clear codes but there are no codes to clear. I'll try the flashing cel method.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:10 pm
Posts: 880
Location: Vancouver, WA
pvr007 wrote:
BlueState4Ever wrote:
UPDATE: Grounds are fine. No corrosion and good contacts.

Question: Would an ECM failure cause intermittent stalls / no starting? How about a bad Map Sensor?


An ecm either is dead or it works, you state it starts once in a while so that means your ecm is ok. Have to done a compression test on the engine, it should eliminate blown head gasket or bad exhaust valves.



I've had ecms be fine one minute and shit themselves the next. 2 minutes later it's running fine again.


When it's dead check injection pulse with a noid light. If it's good take a resistance measurement of the injector. I'm betting the injector is going open.

_________________
98 swift 1.6 16v swap
03 cobra bolt ons
97 3000gt vr4 e85, high comp, bolt ons
too many others to list


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 pm
Posts: 53
Location: RedState4Ever
Okay, so the issue has still not been resolved and I'm starting to get a bit frustrated. To recap, here is what I've replaced:

1. Distributor Cap & Rotor (Replaced)
2. Ignition Coil (Replaced)
3. Fuel Pump (Replaced)
4. Fuel Filter (2 years old, removed and blew through it - no restrictions)
5. ECM / ECU (Replaced)
6. Fuel Pressure Sensor (Replaced)
7. Ignition Ignitor (Replaced)
7. Pickup Coil (Replaced)
8. Idle Air Control Valve (Replaced)
9. Fuel Injector Resistor (Finned Aluminum behind left shock tower with yellow connector)

I have done the following diagnostic work:

1. Cleared the fuel and return lines.
2. Checked and cleaned all grounds.
3. Checked fuse sandwich box (under dash)

What could be causing the motor to shut down after 20-30 seconds of idling? Again, I am able to restart after 15-20 minutes but the same thing will happen. It dies quickly as though the fuel stops. Could a faulty TPS sensor be shutting off the fuel? Injector?

What do y'all think?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:10 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:10 pm
Posts: 880
Location: Vancouver, WA
VR4 wrote:
pvr007 wrote:
BlueState4Ever wrote:
UPDATE: Grounds are fine. No corrosion and good contacts.

Question: Would an ECM failure cause intermittent stalls / no starting? How about a bad Map Sensor?


An ecm either is dead or it works, you state it starts once in a while so that means your ecm is ok. Have to done a compression test on the engine, it should eliminate blown head gasket or bad exhaust valves.



I've had ecms be fine one minute and shit themselves the next. 2 minutes later it's running fine again.


When it's dead check injection pulse with a noid light. If it's good take a resistance measurement of the injector. I'm betting the injector is going open.

_________________
98 swift 1.6 16v swap
03 cobra bolt ons
97 3000gt vr4 e85, high comp, bolt ons
too many others to list


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:36 am
Posts: 881
Location: Vancouver BC
I had similar symptoms a few years ago to yours. After intermittent failures shortly after cold start/warm up, I checked everything other than the fuel injector itself. After a few weeks of inconvenient stalling in traffic, I bought a used injector, and took the old injector out and took them both to a fuel injection/turbo service shop. They tested and confirmed the old injector was shorted. (explains why it took a few minutes after engine warm up before failing). They disassembled my used injector and did a cleaning for about $30 and did not charge me for testing the old one. I now keep a known good injector in my parts bin for this sort of test scenario. (Pic n Pull charges I think $7 for a used fuel injector)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 pm
Posts: 53
Location: RedState4Ever
That was it! I pulled the injector (right) and the housing was collapsed, the o-ring disintegrated and I imagine the unit was shorting causing gas to back-up. I pocketed a used injector out of a junked Geo at Pick-A-Part (left) and popped it in. Viola! Problem fixed. Thanks.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:19 pm
Posts: 344
Location: vancouver island, canada
Very good. Will keep this one in the books incase it happens again.

_________________
92 geo metro 1.0L 5 spd. 2 dr Soon to be my turbo swap car. (Dragonfly) sold
91 pontiac firefly, 1.0L 2dr auto. stock. (The crap can) sold
91 chevy sprint. 1.0L 5 spd. My first turbo swap. (Red rocket) now the purple nurple
95 geo metro. 1.3L auto parts car. (Scrap)
91 chevy sprint turbo, blueboy keeping it "stock"


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group