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Underbody braces, turbos and more!

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 3:09 pm 
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Location: Kamloops, BC
I have a 1997 Swift 2dr 1.3L SOHC, 5 speed, recently purchased it, had been sitting for about a year. Having problems with the engine missing under load, mainly when running at lower rpms. Runs good idle and at higher rpms. Starts great too.

Have had a number of different codes from it (P0300, P0301, P0302, P0141, P0401). I have removed and cleaned the EGR valve, and replaced the downstream O2 sensor and the P0401 and P0141codes have not returned. Replaced the distributor cap and rotor, cleaned and gapped the spark plugs which appear to be in good shape. Tested the plug wires and they all test at 6-7K ohms depending on the length. They appear to be fairly new and in good condition. Replaced the fuel filter. Checked the compression, all 4 cyl at 180psi +/- 5 psi. Checked fuel pressure which is 75psi at the throttle body banjo bolt. Checked for vacuum leaks, secure connections, etc. etc. I am running out of ideas.

The car idles perfectly, and runs good at higher rpm's. Rarely misses when the engine is cold but once it warms up it starts again. Will throw P0300 codes (random misfire) regularly but that's it. Running out of things to check. Has anyone experience this?


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 4:07 pm 
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Location: Vancouver BC
You did not mention whether you checked out whether the catalytic convertor is plugged, or if the PCV valve is functional. If the car has been sitting for a year, do you know how it ran before it was parked? Have you burned off all the stale gas in the tank?

It is interesting that you were getting P301, and P302 codes off a 1997 TBI 1.3 SOHC. I always thought that cylinder specific codes were only available on 1998 and up multi-point fuel injector equipped engines.

If I were you, before investigating potentially costlier fixes, I would eliminate the possibility of intermittent fault under light load, and replace the plug wires and sparkplugs. Also, in case you end up needing a fuel injector, a used one should cost about $7 at the Pic n Pull in Kelowna. As of May 7 2014, there is currently a 1997 1.3 in the yard.

http://row52.com/Vehicle/Index/2S2AB21H2V6604281


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 6:39 pm 
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Location: Kamloops, BC
PCV valve is working, fresh gas in the tank. Didn't check the catalytic convertor but it runs fine if you rev it up and beat on it so I would think its ok. Car wasn't running when I bought it, owner said she thought there was a fuel issue but the filter is changed and pump pressure seems to check out. Got it running with almost no effort. I tried disabling the EGR valve today by unplugging the vacuum line and plugging it off and it was ok for a while but has started missing again. Getting frustrated and running out of ideas.


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 8:00 pm 
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Location: Alberta, Canada
It almost certainly has a carbon track down one of the plugs, or along the inside of a wire, allowing spark to escape instead of going where it's supposed to. Put plugs and wires in before doing anything else.

_________________
1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 10:14 pm 
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Location: Kamloops, BC
Had the plugs out today (NGK's) and I see nothing wrong with them, no carbon track and minimal wear. Same with the wires. They are autolite professional series and they look almost new. I am beginning to wonder if its a fuel problem. It is acting like its carbureted, with a flat spot at certain throttle positions, but will usually improve if you boot it. Is the injector problematic in these cars? I put some injector cleaner in the fuel tank and I cleaned the throttle body with carb cleaner, but it really wasn't that dirty. The car has 234000 km on it. Would it be worth trying a used injector from a wrecker?


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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 11:13 pm 
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Location: Vancouver BC
See previous post for used fuel injector info/potential source.

As an alternative you can find a fuel injection service shop to clean/test your old injector for about $35. It is not a bad idea for a car that has been sitting for a year.
Or you can just do an 'Italian tune up'.

You should also note that your reported test fuel pressure of 75 psi is about twice the normal fuel pressure for a TBI 1.3, assuming you tested with the engine off and in 'key on' state.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 10:14 am 
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Location: Kamloops, BC
Could too much fuel pressure be causing my problem? My gauge only went up to 60psi and the needle went just past the 60. Tried it a couple times and got the same reading. I will test it again today. Thought that seemed like a lot of pressure but thought because it was fuel injected it may have a higher pressure. One website said that was about right. Could the regulator be the problem and do you think that could be causing the missing when the engine is hot?


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 10:57 am 
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It is not clear how you obtained a 60 psi FPR reading, and for that matter you may also want to verify if your gauge is giving you accurate values. Did you measure at idle speed, or with engine off but key on?

If 60 psi is indeed an accurate value under either test condition, it is at least twice the expected factory value.

At low load, engine vacuum is high, and a normal fuel pressure regulator compresses its internal spring/diaphragm, redirecting excess fuel via the fuel return line back to the gas tank, lowering fuel pressure.

At high load, engine vacuum at the fuel pressure regulator lowers, and its internal spring/diaphragm restricts fuel return, increasing the fuel pressure to meet engine demand for greater fuel delivery.

This could explain why your car runs fine during heavy acceleration, but produces a rich misfire condition under light load, after engine warm up.

One simple check you could do for high fuel pressure, is to check for a kink or obstruction in the fuel return line.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 12:41 pm 
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Location: Kamloops, BC
Checked fuel pressure again using a different gauge and got a reading of 72psi at the line that connects to the banjo bolt. This is with the key on but engine not running. Where is the regulator located, on top of the tank? Priced a new regulator and it is over $200. Could I use a universal one and have it coming off the throttle body? I guess I would need to remove the current regulator either way? What is the correct pressure, around 30psi?


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 1:05 pm 
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Location: Kamloops, BC
Fuel pressure will slowly bleed down to about 36psi with the key off and stays there. The return line off the throttle body isn't plugged as I can blow air thru it easily and hear it in the fuel tank.


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 3:24 pm 
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The listing for a 1997 Swift 1.3 TBI shows that the FPR looks like this. This version is around $100.

Image

However, Suzuki also had a variant 1.3 TBI FPR that is integrated into the top of the throttle body. If so, the internal part would look like this under its cover, which is attached with 4 bolts and costs about $35

Image

The service replacement diaphragm part fits under the cap as shown in this photo:

Image


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 7:18 pm 
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Location: Kamloops, BC
Thanks for all your help. My car has the diaphragm one, took it out and appears to be ok but pressure at outlet side of throttle body is still around 70psi. Do you know what the pressure is supposed to be? Can get one from Lordco but not until Monday. Do you think a universal one would work it I put it just before the banjo bolt?


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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 10:15 pm 
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I don't think a universal FPR would be best.. stick with factory stuff.

suggest reading the following Teamswift thread for FPR specs; member gamefoo21 posted specs about mid way through the page, which shows:

http://teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?p=372368

Quote:
1.3L 8V and 1.0L 6V TBI
Key on: 22.7 - 29.9psi
Idling: 12.8 - 20.0psi


You may also find this YouTube clip useful.. which shows fuel pressure, as measured on a running 1.3 TBI engine and during engine off key-on.



hopefully this solves your misfire problem (or at least corrects your high fuel pressure status); all this assumes your test gauge is giving you accurate readings..


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 10:15 am 
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Location: Alberta, Canada
You need to take a pressure reading while it's running.
Yours symptoms still sound like ignition miss to me. Think about it as far as what the affect of different failures are on the engine and what you can feel. A fuel pump issue will not affect one cylinder, particularly on a tbi vehicle. If fuel pressure is low all cyl will mess up, if it's high, all cyl will load up and miss or die. Having been a tech for years, I've just seen so much of this, and it becomes second nature to diagnose it on a road test. Ignition misses can occur at different times, but most common is under light load acceleration. Doing a brake torque(food on gas and brake at same time and giving it gas) will sometimes really show an ignition miss. A wire or boot with a tiny hole will resistance test fine but arc to ground under certain conditions.
Another test is to spray the wires with water while it's running, then run a grounded test light along all wires and see if you can find spark escaping somewhere. Check coil wire closely as well.
If you become convinced its a fuel problem and not a pump, I'd consider getting a complete used throttle body and installing it. The advantage being that you are replacing the tps, injector, fpr etc all at the same time, and they usually aren't expensive used.

_________________
1995 Swift w/16V 4.39s, 3tech cam, Esteem t-body, Header, needs more.
1995 Gt Mustang "Boss Shinoda" package.
1999 F150 4x4 Supercharged
1967 Mustang 428 auto, never ending expensive project
1993 Civic si h22a, fell in my lap, couldn't resist!


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 1:17 pm 
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Location: Kamloops, BC
Just did a pressure test with the car running and also engine stopped with the key on. Used the same gauge that gave me the 72psi reading yesterday but plumbed the gauge in the supply line with a T and got 29psi engine stopped and 24psi engine idling. Got 10spi on the return line side with the key on (pump running) but engine stopped and would go to 0psi with key off. Tried driving the car with the gauge still connected and same lower pressures but its still missing badly even with a cold engine. I removed the pressure regulator yesterday and put it back together but didn't notice anything wrong. Maybe something was slightly out of place in there or some dirt? Regardless, it appears that my problem isn't the fuel pressure after all. Going to try spraying some water on the plug wires and see what happens....


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 1:54 pm 
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Location: Kamloops, BC
Engine running and soaked the plug wires and checked with a test light and nothing. Even tried running my hands all over the wet wires and still nothing. Tried unhooking the vacuum line on the egr valve, plugged the line and took it for a drive and ran fine for about 5 mins then it started again. Reconnected it and still missing. Fuel pressure still around 24psi at idle. I am going to try replacing the plugs and wires. About all I can think of left to try...


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 5:25 pm 
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Location: Kamloops, BC
Installed new plugs and wires and while it seems maybe a little better it is still missing, especially when the motor is hot. Does not throw any codes. Starting to think maybe I should try getting a used throttle body. It misses worst at around 50% throttle at lower rpm's and usually, but not always, improves at full throttle or if you back right off. Doesn't seem to miss at high rpm's. Also noticed when I pulled the old plugs they were blackish, which indicates its running rich. They were just cleaned about 100km ago. Any ideas?


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 7:01 pm 
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Location: Kamloops, BC
Put on about 100km so far and it is pretty much back where it was before the plugs/wires were replaced. Missing badly under load much like before. I noticed a bit of gasoline odour when I got out of the car last time.


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 8:48 pm 
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Sounds like you are still dealing with what sounds like a rich-misfire issue.

With new cap, rotor, wires and plugs, you have eliminated most ignition culprits except the coil, and it seems unlikely that that would cause this type of problem under moderate load, but not full throttle.

You have basically performed a light tune-up. (assuming the air filter was also checked and/or replaced).

Since your location is in BC, do you have any of the AirCare (emission test results) from the previous owner? You may be able to gain some insights from viewing historical results.

You still have not had the fuel injector cleaned/serviced, and with a history of stale gas and sitting for a year, it is probably worth doing as part of your tune up. Or, as codyb76 suggests, you can try a used (known good) complete throttle body.


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 11:17 am 
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Location: Kamloops, BC
Don't have any aircare results to go on. Was thinking of picking up a used throttle body that way I would have the injector, regulator and a bunch of sensors as well.


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