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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 10:40 pm 
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Location: South Carolina
I’ve been using Superflys 10 degree cam gear for a month now and the gas mileage says it all. I knew immediately after installing it there was a small nitrous system that was hiding in the engine somewhere. I’m still as impressed as 3 weeks ago. The gas mileage is averaging 42 MPG in the city & highway. The car has NEVER run as good as it does now. But thanks to reading the forum & Superflys cam gear, a couple of changes were made like plugs (NGK), synchromesh gear lube, 13 inch tires & I have a “new” car now and it’s fun to drive. The 13-inch tires (175-70-13s) feel like they were made for the car. The ride is much improved over the 12s & the handling is definitely a lot better.
All of you GEO/SWIFT/SPRINT 3 cyl. :D owners owe yourself the satisfaction of getting all the free power out of the engine you can. The 10-degree cam gear does more for the power gain than a complete tune-up. (Plugs, Wires, Cap, Rotor, Air filter) I would have to say the MPG has slightly increased before changing the gear. It’s cheaper than a tune-up as well. Do all of them together the next time you do a tune-up. You’ll be amazed at the difference. I’ve done most all my maintenance all of my life. I’m 48 y.o. And when I see something as easy as this cam gear swap that makes this much difference, I want to tell everyone about it. It looks like the gear will actually pay for itself with the increase in gas mileage. And who doesn’t want to go faster? LOL It’s a whole lot more fun to drive than it was.
My car now has a unique ability to lug the engine like crazy, (rolling 4th) without pinging. It’s really weird but it can. It pulls really great in 3rd gear now. I can now hold 5th gear on some hills, where before I would have to downshift to 4th. The true testimony of Superflys gear happened this week when my wife HAD to drive the car. (She hates it, or use to) It has been over a few months since she last drove it. “It’s too slow, I can’t get going with the other cars “. After she got back from her little trip she asked, “what have you done with the engine in this thing”? “You’re going to get a speeding ticket driving that car”. “It gets going so fast you don’t realize it”. How’s that for an unbiased opinion?
If you don’t believe the engine is retarded 10 degrees from the factory, do the test like Nitro or one of the other members posted on a thread previously. Pull a couple of your spark plugs. With the car in neutral, turn the crank pulley until the crank reads 0 or TDC. Then put a long thin screwdriver in the #1 spark plug hole so it’s on top of the piston. Slowly rotate the crankshaft pulley and watch how much further the screwdriver comes up. It’s pretty evident.
I’ve always liked the little GEOs & have owned 3 in the last 14 years. (I usually root for the underdog) I’ve got the “bug” now. I like the newfound power in my 3cyl. And am anxiously awaiting my rebuilt head with mild cam from Superfly. And my crank scraper should be in this week from Sammi. I’m also looking for a swift. I’m a glutton for punishment I guess. I’ve got more stuff to do than I have time. If I could get a swift, I guess I could find the time tho. But I’ve got my eyes open for one. Thanks to everyone here on the forum for their input/advice & good tips.

The drunker I sit here, the longer I get....author:unknown


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 am 
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Location: So. Calif
vgriff wrote:
If you don’t believe the engine is retarded 10 degrees from the factory, do the test like Nitro or one of the other members posted on a thread previously. Pull a couple of your spark plugs. With the car in neutral, turn the crank pulley until the crank reads 0 or TDC. Then put a long thin screwdriver in the #1 spark plug hole so it’s on top of the piston. Slowly rotate the crankshaft pulley and watch how much further the screwdriver comes up. It’s pretty evident.[/color]author:unknown



This confuses me. I've interpreted Suprfly's statement to be that the cam relative to the crank is retarded, not the crank marks relative to the actual piston position. Your example would only proves the spark timing is retarded but doesn't show the amount of retard for the cam (one would need to put a dial indicator on the cam lobe to measure the cam retard).

Or am I missing something? Is the timing too retarded?

FWIW, I have a SuprFly 10 degree advance sprocket sitting here on my desk waiting for me to install it. It's been raining here in So Calif for the past week straight and my garage is too cluttered to get a car in (Damn California houses - no basements means we store EVERYTHING in our garage!)

_________________
1992 Geo metro, 1.0L 5spd, 511,000miles on original engine & trans
- First time engine work at 456K miles, bad headgasket. Rebuilt head, Felpro gasket installed.
- knuckles/hubs/brakes/13" wheels from a 2000 Metro, running 175 70R13
- New bearings and 1st/2nd synchros at 440.5K miles.
- MPGuino
- Averaging ~ 51MPG these days


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:47 am 
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Location: South Carolina
Hi Jellybean. I cant say Ive stuck the screwdriver in the cyl myself. But I know when the timing mark shows TDC,If I rotate the crank a little further i can see the piston come up some more. I'm thinking this is what "retarded by 10 degree" is referring to. So I take it the timing mark on the cover is off in relation to actual TDC. I'm guesing if TDC by a screwdriver or gauge was used the actual timing mark would probably show 20 degrees if the marks went that high. I can remember a couple of V8 motors I had built using a degree wheel & offset crank keys to change the posistion of the timing mark.
Glad to see you got a gear. It'll surprise you the midrange power & top end with the new gear. I think it's all relative with the ECU. The ECU is still firing at the point you set,you have just advanced it further with the gear. It's hard for me to argue with what I can feel & see. Mike can probably explain it a lot better. I think I'm setting on about 13 -15 BTDC now. After I installed it,I filled up with 89 octane & slowly advance the timing a little bit and checked it under load until it started to "rattle" the backed it down about 2 deg. I etched degree marks on the top lip of my distributor. Then went back to 92 octane and she's running great. It's pulling a strong 21 -22in. vacuum which it was not before. With the old gear, if I advanced it to the point of 21 in. vacuum,the engine pinged. In my V8 days, a vacuum that high would indicate your timing was advanced too far. I've seen some guys(my dad) who would tune motors (pro stock) with a feeler gauge and a vacuum gauge.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:43 am 
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Can you check what your timing is set at?

I put my 10 degree sprocket in today, after first setting the stock spark timing to 0 degrees so I could measure how much advance the new sprocket was going to give me.

When I was done with the install, the timing was ~ 14BTDC, so the 10 degree cam sprocket gaveme 14 degrees of advance which I attribute to slop in the dowel pin hole and the dowel pin (the stock OEM pulley too had about that much slop in it).

I reset the timing to 5BTDC as the underhood sticker says.

Car feels a bit flat - not any noticeable gain in the low end other than noise, upper end too feels flat instead of a gradual increase in HP with RPM that I'm used to.

Will drive the car around some more to get a better feel of whether things are better or not.

I'm wondering if this is just because my timing needs to be a lot more advanced than the 5BTDC. ( I did insert the jumper into the diagnostics plug, so I set the timing properly).

I don't see how I can put the sprocket on and take away the additional 4 degrees of advance without taking the valve cover off to hold the cam still. Using the sprocket itself to hold the cam still while torqueing the cam bolt results in the slop adding to the advance.

Dave

_________________
1992 Geo metro, 1.0L 5spd, 511,000miles on original engine & trans
- First time engine work at 456K miles, bad headgasket. Rebuilt head, Felpro gasket installed.
- knuckles/hubs/brakes/13" wheels from a 2000 Metro, running 175 70R13
- New bearings and 1st/2nd synchros at 440.5K miles.
- MPGuino
- Averaging ~ 51MPG these days


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:04 am 
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When I installed my 6* cam sprocket, I didn't touch the timing at all... granted it's a G10t, but it's at about 10* spark advance right now, which is where it was set before. That's where the extra power showed up, I imagine. No point in pulling timing back right after you just advanced it (unless you're pinging). :D


Chris

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:39 am 
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CJDavE wrote:
When I installed my 6* cam sprocket, I didn't touch the timing at all... granted it's a G10t, but it's at about 10* spark advance right now, which is where it was set before. Chris


Hmm, not touching the distributor timing you should have seen your spark timing go from 10 degrees before the cam advance sprocket to 16 degrees with it. Could it have been 4 degrees before and 10 after the addition of the sprocket?

I'm surprised how much slop there is in the oem cam dowel pin hole. There's easily 4 or more degrees of slop in there.
Dave

_________________
1992 Geo metro, 1.0L 5spd, 511,000miles on original engine & trans
- First time engine work at 456K miles, bad headgasket. Rebuilt head, Felpro gasket installed.
- knuckles/hubs/brakes/13" wheels from a 2000 Metro, running 175 70R13
- New bearings and 1st/2nd synchros at 440.5K miles.
- MPGuino
- Averaging ~ 51MPG these days


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:44 am 
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JellyBeanDriver wrote:
Hmm, not touching the distributor timing you should have seen your spark timing go from 10 degrees before the cam advance sprocket to 16 degrees with it. Could it have been 4 degrees before and 10 after the addition of the sprocket?


True enough... no problems with leaving it though. Tried pushing it up more, but the ECU (through the knock sensor) pulled it back more than I advanced it.

Quote:
I'm surprised how much slop there is in the oem cam dowel pin hole. There's easily 4 or more degrees of slop in there.


Agreed. I was concerned with that, put a small piece of paper on top of the dowel to stop it from moving... seems to have done the trick.


Chris

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:05 am 
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Quote:
I'm wondering if this is just because my timing needs to be a lot more advanced than the 5BTDC. ( I did insert the jumper into the diagnostics plug, so I set the timing properly).



Bingo.
No wonder the car feels flat. Try running about 14-16 degrees ign. advance. Back it off 1-2 degrees if it pings, till it stops.

Quote:
I'm surprised how much slop there is in the oem cam dowel pin hole. There's easily 4 or more degrees of slop in there


Of the 50 I have done in the last year, I have scrapped only 3 because the slop was more than 1 degree.
4 degrees? Not a chance.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:18 am 
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suprf1y wrote:
Of the 50 I have done in the last year, I have scrapped only 3 because the slop was more than 1 degree.
4 degrees? Not a chance.


Mike,
I think it's my dowel pin - the end of the head of the dowel pin has quite a radius to it - doesn't look worn but looks to be part of the design.

The stock cam sprocket too had this much slop. When I install either one I can rock the sprocket back and forth and visually it appears that the rocking is good for about 1/2 of a cog tooth width. (1/2 the width of either a raised tooth, or a 'space' tooth. with 40 teeth, 1 tooth = 18 degrees, 18/4 = ~ 4 degrees. Definitely showed up that amount when I put the cam sprocket on after setting the base spark timing to 0 BTDC.

FWIW, the stock dowel pin oval has square sides since it was punched. Your new hole is countersunk on both sides of the sprocket - but I think my dowel pin protrudes enough to get past that chamfer.

Have you done any dyno testing with at +14 degree advance cam sprocket? I'm wondering if it would be worth my effort to try and stack all my slop in one direction to get back to +10 degree advance, or just modify my now 'extra' sprocket to something like +6 degrees to give me +10 when everything is bolted together.

Dave

_________________
1992 Geo metro, 1.0L 5spd, 511,000miles on original engine & trans
- First time engine work at 456K miles, bad headgasket. Rebuilt head, Felpro gasket installed.
- knuckles/hubs/brakes/13" wheels from a 2000 Metro, running 175 70R13
- New bearings and 1st/2nd synchros at 440.5K miles.
- MPGuino
- Averaging ~ 51MPG these days


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:22 pm 
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I haven't used any more than a +10, but a +14 would put you at about 102 degrees ATDC intake centerline, which is not entirely crazy. Its ussually reserved for longer duration cams, to try and bring back some of the lost bottom end, and combine with the longer duration for a broader torque curve.
Pull your dowel out with a good pair of vice grips, and turn it around. They come out easily.
Keep us posted.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:26 pm 
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suprf1y wrote:
I haven't used any more than a +10, but a +14 would put you at about 102 degrees ATDC intake centerline, which is not entirely crazy. Its ussually reserved for longer duration cams, to try and bring back some of the lost bottom end, and combine with the longer duration for a broader torque curve.
Pull your dowel out with a good pair of vice grips, and turn it around. They come out easily.
Keep us posted.


Thanks for the info. Got some time on my hands away from my job due to the mudslides here in So. Calif (can't get to work). Will give it a try in the next day or so.

Dave

_________________
1992 Geo metro, 1.0L 5spd, 511,000miles on original engine & trans
- First time engine work at 456K miles, bad headgasket. Rebuilt head, Felpro gasket installed.
- knuckles/hubs/brakes/13" wheels from a 2000 Metro, running 175 70R13
- New bearings and 1st/2nd synchros at 440.5K miles.
- MPGuino
- Averaging ~ 51MPG these days


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 Post subject: Gas mileage
PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:28 pm 
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Location: South Carolina
:D Hello all. Well I made my first all highway trip this week to Charleston SC (from Lexington) and filled up right before jumping on the interstate. And a fill up after returning. (230 miles @ 4.6 gals) The little 3 banger has finally broke the 50 mpg barrier. It has pushed 47 mpg before but never 50. With the 10 degree advance gear from Superfly, My "new " window sticker should read 42 mpg city, 50 highway. The trip was like any other. Drafting behind 18 wheelers, taking it up to 90mph (with pedal left over) and driving as your normally would. The engine really has a sweet song cruising at highway speeds.
I realized something while checking mile markers against the odometer. After changing to the 175/70/13 tires the odometer is reading slow by 2.6% according to 1010 tire calculator. Which actually means 43/51mpg. The slight change in tire size makes the transmission ratio feel right. I would really like to change over to one of Flys XFI cams just to see what kind of MPG gains I could get with it. Nawwww ,aint going to give up the power. But the 10 degree gear with a XFI camshaft is diffinately a starting point to look at on a MPG project.
The engine thats in my 90 is a JDM engine so I cant say for sure which year model the engine is. I know it runs a lot better than the original engine that was in it. The ECU is from the 91 as well, as I converted the 90 auto to the 5 speed manual. However the transmission is a 91 model as it is the last remaining piece from my 91 and has over 250,00 miles on it. With the change from Mobil1 synthetic to GM synchromesh it feels like it will get another 250,000. I can honestly say since I've changed over to the synchromesh, Not 1, 2nd gear clunk like I was having before with the mobil 1. I did also rebuild the gearshift body & newer shifter bolts/bushings on the transmission stabalizer mount.
I stuck the timing lite on the old girl yesterday & would have to guess the timing is at 14/15 degrees. (92 octane) The idle had to be dropped down after the gear installation. But at approx 800 rpm, it pulls a nice 21 in. vacuum. No pinging at all during accels. All I can say is I'm super impressed :P with superflys gears and wish I had known about them much earlier. It's given me the "speed" bug again. The increase in gas milage WILL pay for the cam gear over time.
Here in South Carolina there are a lot of people who "throwaway" their GEOs to the salvage yards. Most of these cars are rust free being here. I'm amazed at some of them I have seen just this past week. There's 2 cars in particlar that are currently without titles in my friends salvage yards(CMC) that are in perfect shape. 1, 5 door & 1, 3 door. My friend gives me great prices on all the parts I drag out of there. (free a lot of the time) I have a good amount of parts on hand at the house & many more that I can easily access. ECUs, wiper switches,headlight switches, heater cores etc. If I can help you out with your parts, let me know. I could even take digital pics if needed. (vgriff56@alltel.net) I'm not in it to make any money. Just trying to help out any other GEO/Swift/Sprint enthusiests. The swift/Gts parts are pretty rare but my friend is currently looking for ANY & all Gt parts/cars for me. 96 GEOs and up are not as readily available as the older ones. But right now there are at least 12 cars(96 & older) that are available for parts. It may be a couple of weeks before I could start chasing parts tho. I've got some medical stuff goin on.
I'd like to show my apprecation to those of you who participate in the forum & share your info/ideas on these cars. It helps keep another species from becoming extinct. I enjoy the forum you all have going on here. I look forward to reading & sharing the suggestions & comments.
I would love a complete set of swift rear disk brakes if anyone has a set they looking to sell. (paypal would work) Thanks

The drunker I sit here, The longer I get: Author unknown


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:20 pm 
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Congrats on your mileage record! I had to retard my timing a bit to 9BTDC (I thought I was running 10BTDC, but when I rechecked it , it was at 11BTD). I am running regular unleaded and had a bit of pinging which is by I backed down a touch. With my 100 mile round trip a day commute, I can't justify 91 octane (we only have 87, 89 and 91 octane out here). I still can hear a split second of pinging under certain conditions, but it never persists more than a split second.

Put about 300 miles on the car since I changed out the cam sprocket. Cruising is definitely more 'powerful', throttle is barely cracked and I'm cruising at 75MPH. All out WOT/redlining the car from a stoplight I can definitely feel the loss in the top end though I could probably regain some of that by using premium unleaded and advancing the timing further. The trip up Conejo Grade here in So. Calif was still a bit slow - before the timing gear changeout I could do ~65MPH, afterwards I'm still only doing ~65MPH up the hill (8% grade)

However for 95% of my driving - cruising on the freeway or putzing around town, the +10 degree cam advance gear feels better. Side benefit as you noted is an increase in manifold vacuum - I haven't measured it but my braking definitely is more powerful.

Dave

_________________
1992 Geo metro, 1.0L 5spd, 511,000miles on original engine & trans
- First time engine work at 456K miles, bad headgasket. Rebuilt head, Felpro gasket installed.
- knuckles/hubs/brakes/13" wheels from a 2000 Metro, running 175 70R13
- New bearings and 1st/2nd synchros at 440.5K miles.
- MPGuino
- Averaging ~ 51MPG these days


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:51 pm 
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Location: South Carolina
Jellybean, With the 92 model,do you have the vacuum advance dist or the non vacuum? I've always had vacuum on both mine. It almost sounds like the ecu could be pulling/limiting the advance back. Does your dist.(non vacuum) have any kind of mechanical advance? (Flyweights)I've got a spare non advance I'll never use. I used to mess around with chevy distributors and could change springs or change the weight of the flyweights to get different advances. Yea the gas sure will make a diff tho. If I started running 89,I know I would have to back the timing back down. I've always run 92/93 octane. It seems I can usually get 10 -20 miles per tank more with the high test the the cheap stuff,Especially if it's all highway. Besides we're down to $1.80 gal for 92.
It's just hard to believe that mine has seen such a radical transformation than the way it was. I always thought of the old girl as kinda gutless. Not any more. I think the plugs had a lot to do with it as well. I dont even know if there's a dyno around here. But I've had a couple of 1/4 mile V8 cars before & I swear this thing is pumping 10 -15% more power all thru the powerband. 3rd gear is a blast now. It pulls rear hard in 3rd & 4th aint bad. It never lacked on top end & sure has more now. I pulled 90 the other day & still had a bunch of pedal left.
You know you brought up a point. I'm expecting my new head back from fly any day now & with the cam I'll be using,I wonder what my boosters gonna do. Most all cams at an idle will give you a big swing from 5 -15in.(depends on how rowdy the cam is) It will be this spring before I mate the new head up with the new bottom end. I really believe the advance gear brings the vacuum up better than with the old gear tho. The engine evidently breaths more free than before. I'm gonna have to get a new 1 7/8 or 2" exhaust system & let it breath even better.
Usually with a power gain you get a small drop in mileage. The 10 degree on mine has given it more power & a little better mileage tho. I've seen some other posts with some other models that have got the big gains as well. I wonder if you might have something going on with the distributor or the cam problem you had.
I found a really cherry 92 LSI 3 door. The guy is proud of his price of $1000 even with a clutch thats almost gone. If it's still there after next week I might try to talk to the guy& see if he'll come down.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:38 am 
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Well I just installed a 8* pulley on my sprint today. while I dident notice a huge change in its acceleration It dose rev out a bit easier. before it would struggle for those last 1500rpm now it feels more confidant revin to the redline. I have been a little conservative by setting my timming at 10* After a bit I will advance it some more. dident want to do to much right off. I am happy with the results :) I still got the stock exhaust but my ported intake makes it sound so sweet. thanks Mike :D I look forward to doing to head freshen up soon.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:16 am 
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Quote:
I was concerned with that, put a small piece of paper on top of the dowel to stop it from moving... seems to have done the trick.

I've used some old fashion ducktape but I found it was too hard to remove it after the job was done so the "paper solution" worked for me too.

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